Possession Football secret: players or tactics?

Zealous wrote:

jibers wrote:
Galacticos played good football, again possession wanst that big a deal, they won the ball and were based on individuals performing. That team was more about the indivuiduals than the systems.

They were more concerned with goals than side ways passes.

well maybe if they were concerned with side way passing, Madrid's horrible defense would not have been exposed time after time after time, and we might have won many cups... as we had amazing potential to score but even more threat of being scored upon....

Jibers, you provide some excellent points, but would you not agree that players like Alves, Villa, Mascherano, Sanchez, Affely, Abidal, are players who came to barca and quickly caught up with "keeping the ball" when in their original teams, they were not trained specifically to "keep the ball"?

That is kind of a counter argument to hypothesis of Barca being succesful at keeping the ball due to them growing up together or playing with eachother forever... how did these newly brought players suddenly grasp the idea of possesssion football and instead being direct, were better at keeping the ball so abruptly??

And also, i could agree that Xaviesta and Messi+busquets could be a very strong possession side with immense chemistry... but why can another team, dominate 70% possession against any other team but barcelona?? I mean, even Arsenal and United, which are best at keeping the ball in England, do NOT keep 70%+ possesion in MOST of their matches, specially against other big sides...

why cant a ... Alonso-Ozil-Sneijder midfield with a forward of Silva-Benzema-Rooney/Aguero, be able to dominate keeping the ball against alll other teams except barca, (if ur chemistry argument holds thats why i exempted barca)

I remember 2-2 barcelona copa del rey with madrid in camp nou, Real Madrid went out for it, and almost matched barcelona with a 48% possession, so maybe its the tactics?

Zealous wrote:

jibers wrote:
Galacticos played good football, again possession wanst that big a deal, they won the ball and were based on individuals performing. That team was more about the indivuiduals than the systems.

They were more concerned with goals than side ways passes.

quicker build up, had more direct players. Barcelona are better with the ball and only Messi and Iniest offer a consistent direct threat. Madrid had Figo, Ronaldo, Zidane etc. They were always going to have less possession.

Real Kandahar wrote:

Zealous wrote:

jibers wrote:
Galacticos played good football, again possession wanst that big a deal, they won the ball and were based on individuals performing. That team was more about the indivuiduals than the systems.

They were more concerned with goals than side ways passes.

well maybe if they were concerned with side way passing, Madrid's horrible defense would not have been exposed time after time after time, and we might have won many cups... as we had amazing potential to score but even more threat of being scored upon....

Jibers, you provide some excellent points, but would you not agree that players like Alves, Villa, Mascherano, Sanchez, Affely, Abidal, are players who came to barca and quickly caught up with "keeping the ball" when in their original teams, they were not trained specifically to "keep the ball"?

That is kind of a counter argument to hypothesis of Barca being succesful at keeping the ball due to them growing up together or playing with eachother forever... how did these newly brought players suddenly grasp the idea of possesssion football and instead being direct, were better at keeping the ball so abruptly??

And also, i could agree that Xaviesta and Messi+busquets could be a very strong possession side with immense chemistry... but why can another team, dominate 70% possession against any other team but barcelona?? I mean, even Arsenal and United, which are best at keeping the ball in England, do NOT keep 70%+ possesion in MOST of their matches, specially against other big sides...

why cant a ... Alonso-Ozil-Sneijder midfield with a forward of Silva-Benzema-Rooney/Aguero, be able to dominate keeping the ball against alll other teams except barca, (if ur chemistry argument holds thats why i exempted barca)

I remember 2-2 barcelona copa del rey with madrid in camp nou, Real Madrid went out for it, and almost matched barcelona with a 48% possession, so maybe its the tactics?

Great points mate. You have to rememebr this Barcelona side only have 2 players that are capable of offering a consistent direct threat, Messi and Iniesta. The rest have to pass the ball arounf to create openings and to play the ball through the defence. Only Messi really runs from deep and takes on 2+ players. United try to run through a lot more and Barcelona always try to keep the ball where as teams like Rasenal lose the ball and dont recover it as quick. As I said I would't even call Arsenal a possession side yet they can keep the ball better than most teams.

Barcelona circulate the ball a lot and always make sure there are mu;ltiple passing options or have playsers like Xavi that can create the space for a passing. Alves abidal etc all play in roles where possession is not vital. The serious roles are the cm, where Mascherano strugglked, Cesc is struggling to control etc. With Messi dropping back they ususally outnumber most teams in mf. Again, possession football is a myth that the media created.

Real Kandahar wrote:

Zealous wrote:

jibers wrote:
Galacticos played good football, again possession wanst that big a deal, they won the ball and were based on individuals performing. That team was more about the indivuiduals than the systems.

They were more concerned with goals than side ways passes.

well maybe if they were concerned with side way passing, Madrid's horrible defense would not have been exposed time after time after time, and we might have won many cups... as we had amazing potential to score but even more threat of being scored upon....

Maybe if all of Madrid's star players weren't over 30 years old they would have played better

jibers wrote:

Real Kandahar wrote:

Zealous wrote:

jibers wrote:
Galacticos played good football, again possession wanst that big a deal, they won the ball and were based on individuals performing. That team was more about the indivuiduals than the systems.

They were more concerned with goals than side ways passes.

well maybe if they were concerned with side way passing, Madrid's horrible defense would not have been exposed time after time after time, and we might have won many cups... as we had amazing potential to score but even more threat of being scored upon....

Jibers, you provide some excellent points, but would you not agree that players like Alves, Villa, Mascherano, Sanchez, Affely, Abidal, are players who came to barca and quickly caught up with "keeping the ball" when in their original teams, they were not trained specifically to "keep the ball"?

That is kind of a counter argument to hypothesis of Barca being succesful at keeping the ball due to them growing up together or playing with eachother forever... how did these newly brought players suddenly grasp the idea of possesssion football and instead being direct, were better at keeping the ball so abruptly??

And also, i could agree that Xaviesta and Messi+busquets could be a very strong possession side with immense chemistry... but why can another team, dominate 70% possession against any other team but barcelona?? I mean, even Arsenal and United, which are best at keeping the ball in England, do NOT keep 70%+ possesion in MOST of their matches, specially against other big sides...

why cant a ... Alonso-Ozil-Sneijder midfield with a forward of Silva-Benzema-Rooney/Aguero, be able to dominate keeping the ball against alll other teams except barca, (if ur chemistry argument holds thats why i exempted barca)

I remember 2-2 barcelona copa del rey with madrid in camp nou, Real Madrid went out for it, and almost matched barcelona with a 48% possession, so maybe its the tactics?

Great points mate. You have to rememebr this Barcelona side only have 2 players that are capable of offering a consistent direct threat, Messi and Iniesta. The rest have to pass the ball arounf to create openings and to play the ball through the defence. Only Messi really runs from deep and takes on 2+ players. United try to run through a lot more and Barcelona always try to keep the ball where as teams like Rasenal lose the ball and dont recover it as quick. As I said I would't even call Arsenal a possession side yet they can keep the ball better than most teams.

Barcelona circulate the ball a lot and always make sure there are mu;ltiple passing options or have playsers like Xavi that can create the space for a passing. Alves abidal etc all play in roles where possession is not vital. The serious roles are the cm, where Mascherano strugglked, Cesc is struggling to control etc. With Messi dropping back they ususally outnumber most teams in mf. Again, possession football is a myth that the media created.

Very good points

So what does possession mean?

Barca keep the ball because they have a bunch of midgets. End Of story.

Seriously though, I find this to be a challenging discussion since I don't watch them much but I believe it is both the players and the tactics .

I believe one of the reasons for their retention of the ball is the players themselves. When Pep was there he seemed to favour diminutive but extremely technical players. It is that brand of players barcelona mostly look to produce. The Barca system or style fits these sorts of players, it is the system that they thrive under . These players (Barca's) are highly intelligent and possess knowledge of space sublimely. It is the knowledge of space and intelligent movement into this space why they are so good with the ball and on it.I would also like to say that none of their players are particularly selfish and we can often accuse them of being too unselfish. If you look at a Barca game , the players are always in space and available for the pass. Finding them is quite easy for other players this is because they understand space better than anybody else. If you ask me I would BOLDLY say that players for Barca do not have positions or regular positions but they are occupiers,organizers and architects of space!Also I would also say the players' positional fluiditiy is a factor with all the swapping of positions and movement of players slotting in here and there. When you swap positions it makes it difficult to use a man marking system because defenders and MF's will be dragged and put all over the place. The other reason why the retain it so well is because they have patience, patience and patience. Whilst everyone looks to punt it , they build from the back . They do not punt it, they always look for the sensible pass. That is why when teams look to press their back four and GK aggressively or heavily and do it successfully , their overall play is not great as it would be if there was not such pressing.

Now for tactics, there isn't much to say if you ask me since I don't know much about this part. All I would say is ''Pass and Move .'' I can touch on what I just said above : It is all from the back , that is where it starts. Valdes the best SK starts the moves by playing the ball short. I know they don't press as well as 2 or 3 years ago but their pressing of the ball is still very important in their retention of the ball if you ask me since they press so highly and from the front. Since I think training is part of tactics I would like to touch on this part a little bit. ( Correct me If I am wrong ) but I believe Barca train their players ( Youth products) at a very tender age to keep the ball on the ground extensively.I believe their training schedules are based around and are focused on how to keep the ball and what to do with the ball when you have it .<---------- I think that is drilled into them . Overall teamwork of their players and communication is a factor of their excellent retention if you ask me. I obviously don't need to talk about their short passing, it is short , LOL Short corners, short everything.

As for a team, I'd have to think very hard. Hope I made some sort of sense .

MaestroFavre wrote:Barca keep the ball because they have a bunch of midgets. End Of story.

Seriously though, I find this to be a challenging discussion since I don't watch them much but I believe it is both the players and the tactics .

I believe one of the reasons for their retention of the ball is the players themselves. When Pep was there he seemed to favour diminutive but extremely technical players. It is that brand of players barcelona mostly look to produce. The Barca system or style fits these sorts of players, it is the system that they thrive under . These players (Barca's) are highly intelligent and possess knowledge of space sublimely. It is the knowledge of space and intelligent movement into this space why they are so good with the ball and on it.I would also like to say that none of their players are particularly selfish and we can often accuse them of being too unselfish. If you look at a Barca game , the players are always in space and available for the pass. Finding them is quite easy for other players this is because they understand space better than anybody else. If you ask me I would BOLDLY say that players for Barca do not have positions or regular positions but they are occupiers,organizers and architects of space!Also I would also say the players' positional fluiditiy is a factor with all the swapping of positions and movement of players slotting in here and there. When you swap positions it makes it difficult to use a man marking system because defenders and MF's will be dragged and put all over the place. The other reason why the retain it so well is because they have patience, patience and patience. Whilst everyone looks to punt it , they build from the back . They do not punt it, they always look for the sensible pass. That is why when teams look to press their back four and GK aggressively or heavily and do it successfully , their overall play is not great as it would be if there was not such pressing.

Now for tactics, there isn't much to say if you ask me since I don't know much about this part. All I would say is ''Pass and Move .'' I can touch on what I just said above : It is all from the back , that is where it starts. Valdes the best SK starts the moves by playing the ball short. I know they don't press as well as 2 or 3 years ago but their pressing of the ball is still very important in their retention of the ball if you ask me since they press so highly and from the front. Since I think training is part of tactics I would like to touch on this part a little bit. ( Correct me If I am wrong ) but I believe Barca train their players ( Youth products) at a very tender age to keep the ball on the ground extensively.I believe their training schedules are based around and are focused on how to keep the ball and what to do with the ball when you have it .<---------- I think that is drilled into them . Overall teamwork of their players and communication is a factor of their excellent retention if you ask me. I obviously don't need to talk about their short passing, it is short , LOL Short corners, short everything.

As for a team, I'd have to think very hard. Hope I made some sort of sense .

Great Post ! you summarize very well as to why Barcelona, has been such a good possession side, going in details about the technicality behind it.

However, would you like to comment on why World class midfielders or players from other teams not able to emulate it?? The question i would also pose to you is, not all barca players are homegrown, VIlla, Alves, Abidal, Sanchez, Song, Mascherano are all key players of Barcelona and were bought , not created, yet they play as if they have been playing 2gether for years.. why do you think so?

Maybe other clubs just don't have the players to emulate it?

Zealous wrote:

haha. zeal is right

it has to be both.

in order for a team to be as good as barca at possession the players have to be excellent at dribbling, holding up the ball, passing. basically good ball control players.

on the flip side as far as tactics go the individual player has to be a good judge of when and when not to pass, where to pass and where not to pass.

also the tactics set by the coach have to support conservative possesion

and it doesnt hurt if the player has good speed and technique.

also a huge part of barca tactics are the wingback type players they employ to supply the width.. these players have to be athletic so they can get up and down the length of the pitch.

Yohan, Galacticos, Current madrid team, Arsenal 2009, Man City Now, Bayern now, Milan 2004, are all teams that could emulate it, and they could potentially boost their squad to do it, these teams i mentioned, have/had world class technical players in different positions (not every player in each position, but neither does barcelona have that)

For me,Barca and the Spanish NT are extremely boring to watch whenever its not an important game, I dont admire it at all

However, would you like to comment on why World class midfielders or players from other teams not able to emulate it?? The question i would also pose to you is, not all barca players are homegrown, VIlla, Alves, Abidal, Sanchez, Song, Mascherano are all key players of Barcelona and were bought , not created, yet they play as if they have been playing 2gether for years.. why do you think so?

@ that Question ^ Tough questions again. LOL Truth is I wanted to avoid saying that all of barca's players are from la masia and have been in the system for years now.

Truth is every player is different. Whether they are crap or wc.It is the role that they have in their respective teams. Some are given disciplined roles whilst others are given more '' loose '' roles . How many players' in any team role is to primarily play the ball short until you find an opening? I really can't think of any other than Barca's.Not even playmakers have that role. Most midfielders are much more direct and look to get the ball forward.Not back,horizontal or any other way in such a patient manner . I genuinely believe that other players aren't instructed to do what they do because I know some are quite capable of it.

Truth is I also believe that Barca see the players that they buy , as : malleable and players that can adapt to their system easily or have some sort of aspect or component in their system. They look for Versatility, Similarity and Genius if you ask me. Of course the players that they buy are usually not from La Masia or from that area but Barca hope to distribute their DNA to these players in order for them to be successful. Wasn't there a time where pep had an interview with FIFA and he talked about the intelligence of MF's and them being able to play in different position or something like that? Well that is what I am talking about . However, I'm talking about the players they buy and are generally interested in and not only midfielders. Most of the players they buy, have the intelligence and the ability to adapt to that system.

system plays important role

on players short players is the main factor. agility with excellent technique. a barca player needs agility to win the ball back.short players are the best at pressing they can stop and accelarate very quickly. then u need great technique on this short player. and all of them are excellent. even underrated pedro can control the flying ball at zidane level.

then comes other factors likes of passing, brain, creativity etc. but main factor is short player with excellent technique

What makes them soo good at keeping the ball for so long and being so good at one touch football?

The answer to this question is so long and complex i'm already yawning at the response, however i think its very interesting if you honestly have no clue. Here goes nothing.

Is it the players they have or the tactics they have employed?

Both, and this is a very important point. In Barcelona the system is the star, but without their players the system would be worthless.

First lets understand this point, creating triangles is one of the biggest priorities in the team, Johann Cruyff has said in his books that he has thought long and hard on this and he couldn't find another geometrical shape better than the triangle for keeping the ball. When players form a triangle they always have an option to pass either on the left or on the right. If your players know this they don't have to look and think on where their teammates are, they can do one touch quick passes .

Form follows function is a classic architectural phrase, it applies perfectly here. 4-3-3 and 3-4-3 are the best formations to naturally form triangles. Again, this has been thought approved by Johann Cruyff. This might not be at first an intuitive thought, but think about the classic anti possession shape, the 4-4-2. In a classic 4-4-2 (Click on this image to see what i'm talking about http://www.soccerissue.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/10_4-4-2.png) you have two midfielders in a line, two advanced wings on each side and two forwards as close to the box as they can. When you see the midfielders and then the forwards, you can see a big gap of space where a player (nay, a triangle) could be, watch any Barcelona match as it starts and you will see how an inverted pyramid shape appears in midfield. Positional work is very important in Barcelona, the players always have to look at their position and think, am i forming a triangle? In case the ball comes to me, where will my teammates be? Who is marking me? Where will i have to run next to be available? All this has to be though in split seconds, it also goes to my next point...

The players themselves have to perfectly lend themselves to this philosophy, think about it. Were any player to step outside the system, it can compromise the triangle, and then the possession, and that's the entire point of the team. From the clubs motto, Mes que un club, to the attitude (humility) and discipline Guardiola enforced, they all serve to protect the idea that nobody can be above the club and thus, nobody should go around doing crazy Ronaldo like skills and dribbles, unless they serve to advance the clubs purpose (Messi, Iniesta and Alves have limited licenses to be a little selfish). This is just the beginning.

Every single Barcelona player has to have perfect ball control, and i mean everyone, including the keeper and defenders. When you play possession football sometimes players are highly pressed and have to make quick passes to avoid losing the ball, if the teammate that receives the ball has a poor first touch, the ball will bounce off its feet, the player will have to run to get that ball and that puts the team in a precarious position to lose possession and at best case, losing a few seconds to pass. Its amazing how players like Busquets, Messi and Xavi sometimes receive bricks at their feet and they stop the ball at their feet like its nothing, like they had a pillow attached. Its almost slightly unnerving to see a GK who is so good with the ball at his feet like Victor Valdes. Like Van Der Saar, i'm sure he could be a forward in a lesser team. This is a nice Zonal Marking article talking about how distribution starts with the keeper (http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/11/25/goalkeeper-short-passing-distribution/)

It doesn't stop at this, the players themselves also have to be drilled like crazy to know they have to pass the ball and play a maximum of say, three touches. Johann Cruyff has said how a player that needs only two touches to pass the ball is a great player, and someone that plays in one touch is something else. When Cruyff first arrived in Barcelona as a couch, he turned to the youth players and spotted a young thin teenage boy playing perfect passes in midfield, he immediately promoted that kid to his first team and made him a starter, that boy was Guardiola. When Barcelona scouts players for La Masia, they target technique above all else, everything else is secondary to that, including height, strength and pace. In La Masia, Barcelona cadets learn to play with 4-3-3, they learn that passing the ball is always better than trying to dribble, outpace or outmuscle their opponent, they learn that playing the Barcelona way comes first and everything second, including winning the game. These aspects are drilled by years of training, but it goes beyond that, players are forced to think on the system, John Van't Schip, former Dutch international and now coach said: "To play the Ajax system you have to understand it, and especially talk about it alot." By the time these players turn 18, they can slot in the first team and they immediately know where to position themselves, where they need to move, where their teammates will be and they all have the technique to play the role they need to play. This is why a player of medium quality like Pedro or Tello can slot into the first team and feel like they have done it all their lifes. In most cases they actually have done it for a big chunk of their lifes. La Masia players have pushed out even some of the most accomplished players in the world from the team, i'll get to this in a second, lets first talk about the last, but not least, important aspect of Barcelonas philosophy under Guardiola and Vilanova.

Correctly pressing is critical to the function and philosophy of the team. Guardiola has talked about how he understands that this is a game with 22 players and only one ball. Losing possession is unavoidable in a game, one this happens the Barcelona players apply the 6 second rule. The 6 seconds rule consists on heavily pressing the opposition player with the ball by all the players that surround him, the Barcelona players will try to form a "net" and capture that player, at that point they know they don't have to tackle him in most cases, the player himself will make a mistake and Barcelona will resume possession. If however, the player does not make a mistake and the opposition keeps the ball for more than 6 seconds, the Barcelona team regains their usual shape and defends deep, zonal marking and looking for to intercept the ball, remember Barcelona players are chosen for their ball skills, and most don't have the physique to out muscle their opponents. This is a nice youtube video detailing their pressing (https://youtu.be/-Cs0IemkVKs). Barcelona players have to perfectly understand how this works, again, if one players denies the pressing, or does not know it, it will fail and if it fails the team is now in danger of conceding big amounts of space to the opposition.

There are even more finer points on the Barcelona paradigm, like the fact that defenders have to form a very high defensive line and need to be good at playing the offside trap or how attackers have to be able to play quick first touch passes into space to overcome the opposition from parking the bus, but by now you get my original, gigantic point. Both the tactics and the players are important to play possession football.

WHY can barca keep the ball better than any other team, while there are MANY talented set of players across the world...?

would you not agree that players like Alves, Villa, Mascherano, Sanchez, Affely, Abidal, are players who came to barca and quickly caught up with "keeping the ball" when in their original teams, they were not trained specifically to "keep the ball"?

how did these newly brought players suddenly grasp the idea of possesssion football and instead being direct, were better at keeping the ball so abruptly??

Look back and think about what i just wrote, it all talks about a very specific way of playing and the training that needs to happen for it to succeed. That training takes years of continuity and learning. Now lets think about Arch Rivals Real Madrid and how they usually work.

Real Madrid, as a philosophy, buys superstars from around the world and slots them into their team. Especially under Perez, the number one priority in a would be Madrid player is, how big of a name and talent is he? Everything else is secondary to this, it doesn't matter if he doesn't compliment the team. Real Madrid expect to continuously win, if the coach or players do not deliver instant results, they generally get axed, and new blood comes in. On the subject of their youngsters, it is extremely hard for them to reach the first team. The first team is already filled with world class players of different playing styles and backgrounds, Managers get shuffled all the time. Young players not only would have to adapt to the team tactics and the players in a way that Barcelona youngsters simply do not, they also have to quickly manage their own growning pains. As a result most Madrid youngsters are shipped to Getafe, a place where they can develop and maybe return to the Bernabeu one day.

For a team like Real Madrid to suddenly decide they want to start playing possession football, they would have to hit the reset button HARD and understand that results will have to be built by years of work and continuity, where they will have to reevaluate several ideas, this of course is not the Madrid, or really any other big team philosophy.

There's many examples of this, but Luis Enriques Roma is one of the best and most current examples. Luis Enrique, a former important Barcelona man, was brought into the new Roma project to create a possession team, great! Luis Enrique had a hard season where Roma fans where dissapointed and the results, the owners quickly axed him, where did it go wrong? Roma is a medium team from a big city like many others in Europe, different owners, managers and players came and went into the club, they all bought their own individual ideas and philosophies on how to play. Luis Enrique did not find a perfectly drilled team in which everyone understood their role and had been trained as kids to perform it, he found a team of different individuals with different skillets. Even if, say, Danielle De Rossi could be as neat and tidy in distribution as Sergio Busquets, he won't naturally be able to do it without thinking because he has played in a different style all his life. A player like Francessco Totti is never going to stop doing what he's doing because a coach told him to do so, in fact he famously invented the false 9 position because of this very trait. Roma is not a super rich club where Enrique could simply bring in his own players, and even if he could, who in the world grew up playing the Barcelona way besides La Masia players? Theres also the fact that dropping players like De Rossi and Totti would almost be unthinkable to any new coach.

Now lets go back to Barcelona and their outsiders. You mentioned Alves, Villa, Mascherano, Sanchez, Affely, Abidal but i can also bring in Ibra, Chygrynsky, Yaya Toure and their parade of Left backs. Lets divide them all into different camps.

First comes the one that has undoubtedly succeeded in Barcelona. Daniel Alves. Alves has been such a hit in Barcelona precisely because he is an outsider to the system. Zonal Marking did a big in depth article on this (http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/01/21/dani-alves/). The gist of it is that Alves is Barcelonas one direct player, and as such he brings in something else to the table.

Next would come the players that have played alot and have been relative successes in Barcelona. Players like Mascherano, Abidal. First of all, both of these players are excellent and share the number one thing Barcelona needs, great technique with the ball. Thanks to their hard work they have been able to slot into the defense.

Now comes the intermittent players who have been both good and bad and have been criticized by both fans and press. Players like Villa and Sanchez. Both these attackers have not been able to lock in a first team position, frequently being displaced by La Masia youngsters like Pedro and Tello. It speaks volumes about how simply changing your style and slotting into Barcelona is not easy. Villa has spoken before on how he has been lost in what the coach has asked him to do, and how he mirrors Pedro in those occasions. Sanchez was brought because Barcelona thought his style was similar, so far it hasn't worked out as smooth as they would like.

Last comes unsuccessful players that did not adapt to Barcelona and were unceremoniously pushed away. Players of incredible talent like Ibra, Toure and Afellay were generally brought in a plans B to bring in something else La Masia players did not, such as Ibras ability to turn something from nothing, Toures physicality as well as his technique and Afellay raw pace to go with his cool dribbling skills. They all could not adapt, were benched and grew tired of it.

As far as my "outside XI" that could challenge Barcelona in possession. I'd first have to say that any international all star XI i could muster would not be enough to defeat a world class team that has been trained for literal years like Barcelona. Nevertheless something inferior, but similar could be made. However its 2:41 AM and i will have to leave it for tomorrow.

jibers wrote:doesnt exist. Barcelona are the only team to do what they are doing now to this extent. The bigger teams will always have more possession. Teams dont play possession football. Barcelona just have ridiculouisly techniallly proficient players that can keep it better than anyone else. tiki taka is a myth

This is actually a great point. Not many Teams actually play possession football but yet are up there with the possession stats. This at times delude people into thinking they are playing possession football but they really are not. For example Real Madrid never play Possession football and yet they were in top 5 in Europe for Possession. Same with Man city. They would obviously love to keep the ball but if they don't have it due to opponent's tactics, they will be happy to just sit back and counter. Unlike Barcelona who are taught to keep the ball before anything else, hence you don't see them risking the possession and playing with a certain calculation.

Arsenal would be the only team after barcelona who you can say are a possession side since Wenger basically has the same philosophy, but even then at times we prefer to counter when thing's are not going right or our technically gifted players are not fit.

So to answer the question, it's a bit of both really. Barcelona wouldn't be able to keep the ball this well without xavi,iniesta,messi,pique, busquets which is an obvious point, and they wouldn't be able to keep it either if it wasn't in their philosophy.

nice point Gunner, when do you think Wenger has implemented possession style football upon his players, especially youth players? since when?

we know Wenger's favoritism for younger players, has that influenced his style of football?

chinomaster182 wrote:

What makes them soo good at keeping the ball for so long and being so good at one touch football?

The answer to this question is so long and complex i'm already yawning at the response, however i think its very interesting if you honestly have no clue. Here goes nothing.

Is it the players they have or the tactics they have employed?

Both, and this is a very important point. In Barcelona the system is the star, but without their players the system would be worthless.

First lets understand this point, creating triangles is one of the biggest priorities in the team, Johann Cruyff has said in his books that he has thought long and hard on this and he couldn't find another geometrical shape better than the triangle for keeping the ball. When players form a triangle they always have an option to pass either on the left or on the right. If your players know this they don't have to look and think on where their teammates are, they can do one touch quick passes .

Form follows function is a classic architectural phrase, it applies perfectly here. 4-3-3 and 3-4-3 are the best formations to naturally form triangles. Again, this has been thought approved by Johann Cruyff. This might not be at first an intuitive thought, but think about the classic anti possession shape, the 4-4-2. In a classic 4-4-2 (Click on this image to see what i'm talking about http://www.soccerissue.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/10_4-4-2.png) you have two midfielders in a line, two advanced wings on each side and two forwards as close to the box as they can. When you see the midfielders and then the forwards, you can see a big gap of space where a player (nay, a triangle) could be, watch any Barcelona match as it starts and you will see how an inverted pyramid shape appears in midfield. Positional work is very important in Barcelona, the players always have to look at their position and think, am i forming a triangle? In case the ball comes to me, where will my teammates be? Who is marking me? Where will i have to run next to be available? All this has to be though in split seconds, it also goes to my next point...

The players themselves have to perfectly lend themselves to this philosophy, think about it. Were any player to step outside the system, it can compromise the triangle, and then the possession, and that's the entire point of the team. From the clubs motto, Mes que un club, to the attitude (humility) and discipline Guardiola enforced, they all serve to protect the idea that nobody can be above the club and thus, nobody should go around doing crazy Ronaldo like skills and dribbles, unless they serve to advance the clubs purpose (Messi, Iniesta and Alves have limited licenses to be a little selfish). This is just the beginning.

Every single Barcelona player has to have perfect ball control, and i mean everyone, including the keeper and defenders. When you play possession football sometimes players are highly pressed and have to make quick passes to avoid losing the ball, if the teammate that receives the ball has a poor first touch, the ball will bounce off its feet, the player will have to run to get that ball and that puts the team in a precarious position to lose possession and at best case, losing a few seconds to pass. Its amazing how players like Busquets, Messi and Xavi sometimes receive bricks at their feet and they stop the ball at their feet like its nothing, like they had a pillow attached. Its almost slightly unnerving to see a GK who is so good with the ball at his feet like Victor Valdes. Like Van Der Saar, i'm sure he could be a forward in a lesser team. This is a nice Zonal Marking article talking about how distribution starts with the keeper (http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/11/25/goalkeeper-short-passing-distribution/)

It doesn't stop at this, the players themselves also have to be drilled like crazy to know they have to pass the ball and play a maximum of say, three touches. Johann Cruyff has said how a player that needs only two touches to pass the ball is a great player, and someone that plays in one touch is something else. When Cruyff first arrived in Barcelona as a couch, he turned to the youth players and spotted a young thin teenage boy playing perfect passes in midfield, he immediately promoted that kid to his first team and made him a starter, that boy was Guardiola. When Barcelona scouts players for La Masia, they target technique above all else, everything else is secondary to that, including height, strength and pace. In La Masia, Barcelona cadets learn to play with 4-3-3, they learn that passing the ball is always better than trying to dribble, outpace or outmuscle their opponent, they learn that playing the Barcelona way comes first and everything second, including winning the game. These aspects are drilled by years of training, but it goes beyond that, players are forced to think on the system, John Van't Schip, former Dutch international and now coach said: "To play the Ajax system you have to understand it, and especially talk about it alot." By the time these players turn 18, they can slot in the first team and they immediately know where to position themselves, where they need to move, where their teammates will be and they all have the technique to play the role they need to play. This is why a player of medium quality like Pedro or Tello can slot into the first team and feel like they have done it all their lifes. In most cases they actually have done it for a big chunk of their lifes. La Masia players have pushed out even some of the most accomplished players in the world from the team, i'll get to this in a second, lets first talk about the last, but not least, important aspect of Barcelonas philosophy under Guardiola and Vilanova.

Correctly pressing is critical to the function and philosophy of the team. Guardiola has talked about how he understands that this is a game with 22 players and only one ball. Losing possession is unavoidable in a game, one this happens the Barcelona players apply the 6 second rule. The 6 seconds rule consists on heavily pressing the opposition player with the ball by all the players that surround him, the Barcelona players will try to form a "net" and capture that player, at that point they know they don't have to tackle him in most cases, the player himself will make a mistake and Barcelona will resume possession. If however, the player does not make a mistake and the opposition keeps the ball for more than 6 seconds, the Barcelona team regains their usual shape and defends deep, zonal marking and looking for to intercept the ball, remember Barcelona players are chosen for their ball skills, and most don't have the physique to out muscle their opponents. This is a nice youtube video detailing their pressing (https://youtu.be/-Cs0IemkVKs). Barcelona players have to perfectly understand how this works, again, if one players denies the pressing, or does not know it, it will fail and if it fails the team is now in danger of conceding big amounts of space to the opposition.

There are even more finer points on the Barcelona paradigm, like the fact that defenders have to form a very high defensive line and need to be good at playing the offside trap or how attackers have to be able to play quick first touch passes into space to overcome the opposition from parking the bus, but by now you get my original, gigantic point. Both the tactics and the players are important to play possession football.

WHY can barca keep the ball better than any other team, while there are MANY talented set of players across the world...?

would you not agree that players like Alves, Villa, Mascherano, Sanchez, Affely, Abidal, are players who came to barca and quickly caught up with "keeping the ball" when in their original teams, they were not trained specifically to "keep the ball"?

how did these newly brought players suddenly grasp the idea of possesssion football and instead being direct, were better at keeping the ball so abruptly??

Look back and think about what i just wrote, it all talks about a very specific way of playing and the training that needs to happen for it to succeed. That training takes years of continuity and learning. Now lets think about Arch Rivals Real Madrid and how they usually work.

Real Madrid, as a philosophy, buys superstars from around the world and slots them into their team. Especially under Perez, the number one priority in a would be Madrid player is, how big of a name and talent is he? Everything else is secondary to this, it doesn't matter if he doesn't compliment the team. Real Madrid expect to continuously win, if the coach or players do not deliver instant results, they generally get axed, and new blood comes in. On the subject of their youngsters, it is extremely hard for them to reach the first team. The first team is already filled with world class players of different playing styles and backgrounds, Managers get shuffled all the time. Young players not only would have to adapt to the team tactics and the players in a way that Barcelona youngsters simply do not, they also have to quickly manage their own growning pains. As a result most Madrid youngsters are shipped to Getafe, a place where they can develop and maybe return to the Bernabeu one day.

For a team like Real Madrid to suddenly decide they want to start playing possession football, they would have to hit the reset button HARD and understand that results will have to be built by years of work and continuity, where they will have to reevaluate several ideas, this of course is not the Madrid, or really any other big team philosophy.

There's many examples of this, but Luis Enriques Roma is one of the best and most current examples. Luis Enrique, a former important Barcelona man, was brought into the new Roma project to create a possession team, great! Luis Enrique had a hard season where Roma fans where dissapointed and the results, the owners quickly axed him, where did it go wrong? Roma is a medium team from a big city like many others in Europe, different owners, managers and players came and went into the club, they all bought their own individual ideas and philosophies on how to play. Luis Enrique did not find a perfectly drilled team in which everyone understood their role and had been trained as kids to perform it, he found a team of different individuals with different skillets. Even if, say, Danielle De Rossi could be as neat and tidy in distribution as Sergio Busquets, he won't naturally be able to do it without thinking because he has played in a different style all his life. A player like Francessco Totti is never going to stop doing what he's doing because a coach told him to do so, in fact he famously invented the false 9 position because of this very trait. Roma is not a super rich club where Enrique could simply bring in his own players, and even if he could, who in the world grew up playing the Barcelona way besides La Masia players? Theres also the fact that dropping players like De Rossi and Totti would almost be unthinkable to any new coach.

Now lets go back to Barcelona and their outsiders. You mentioned Alves, Villa, Mascherano, Sanchez, Affely, Abidal but i can also bring in Ibra, Chygrynsky, Yaya Toure and their parade of Left backs. Lets divide them all into different camps.

First comes the one that has undoubtedly succeeded in Barcelona. Daniel Alves. Alves has been such a hit in Barcelona precisely because he is an outsider to the system. Zonal Marking did a big in depth article on this (http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/01/21/dani-alves/). The gist of it is that Alves is Barcelonas one direct player, and as such he brings in something else to the table.

Next would come the players that have played alot and have been relative successes in Barcelona. Players like Mascherano, Abidal. First of all, both of these players are excellent and share the number one thing Barcelona needs, great technique with the ball. Thanks to their hard work they have been able to slot into the defense.

Now comes the intermittent players who have been both good and bad and have been criticized by both fans and press. Players like Villa and Sanchez. Both these attackers have not been able to lock in a first team position, frequently being displaced by La Masia youngsters like Pedro and Tello. It speaks volumes about how simply changing your style and slotting into Barcelona is not easy. Villa has spoken before on how he has been lost in what the coach has asked him to do, and how he mirrors Pedro in those occasions. Sanchez was brought because Barcelona thought his style was similar, so far it hasn't worked out as smooth as they would like.

Last comes unsuccessful players that did not adapt to Barcelona and were unceremoniously pushed away. Players of incredible talent like Ibra, Toure and Afellay were generally brought in a plans B to bring in something else La Masia players did not, such as Ibras ability to turn something from nothing, Toures physicality as well as his technique and Afellay raw pace to go with his cool dribbling skills. They all could not adapt, were benched and grew tired of it.

As far as my "outside XI" that could challenge Barcelona in possession. I'd first have to say that any international all star XI i could muster would not be enough to defeat a world class team that has been trained for literal years like Barcelona. Nevertheless something inferior, but similar could be made. However its 2:41 AM and i will have to leave it for tomorrow.

Very detailed and impressive Points mate!!! Great job

you bring up two points in this complicated discussion that are VERY important to understand why Barcelon'a possession football is successful, which is the 6 second rule and a high defensive line!!

what you are saying is that by flooding up the midfield (helped with the high defensive line) and the EXTREME pressing as soon as barcelona loses the ball, which i think are two of the most essential elements of winning the ball back!!

Although i have a question for you, Dortmound vs Bayern, Dortmound presses Bayern EXTREMELY well, well not as good as Barcelona does to its opponents, but the pressing is extremely high and which even makes me see the limits of the stamina of the Dortmound players! BUT they are not able to retain possession majority of it against Bayern!, i think that is due to the lack of technicality in their squad to be able to pass completely accurately!!

and your other point about Barcelona coming FIRST, which is drilled into the youth players of la masia is vital! because even the most professional players in barcelona (except messi and iniesta) are not able to have creative freedom and are instructed that usual dribbles can only be made by Iniesta and Messi and others have to "PRIMARILY" but not ALWAYS, pass the ball

Great points!