Re: Where should/will Neymar go?

by danyjr Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:57 pm

I think Guardiola-Zlatan problems started as a result of those 'freedom' issues, too. Ibrahimović did want to play central, which clashed with Messi so yes, there's one fewer reason Barcelona need to worry because Neymar's natural position is on the sides/wings as he does currently with Santos. But the freedom issue remains and can be problematic, once Neymar feels he can help the team in other ways but has to stick to a rigid tactical approach which is not in his nature. It will be a waste of talent in my opinion. He can do so much more in a team without that type of player, such as Milan or Juventus.

I don't want Neymar to go to Barcelona, even though I think he will. But I'm so certain people will eat their words about his success at Barça after a season or two.

I've just seen it too many times. There may be an exception, but it is much more likely there won't be.

by Arquitecto Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:05 am

danyjr wrote:I think Guardiola-Zlatan problems started as a result of those 'freedom' issues, too. Ibrahimović did want to play central, which clashed with Messi so yes, there's one fewer reason Barcelona need to worry because Neymar's natural position is on the sides/wings as he does currently with Santos. But the freedom issue remains and can be problematic, once Neymar feels he can help the team in other ways but has to stick to a rigid tactical approach which is not in his nature. It will be a waste of talent in my opinion. He can do so much more in a team without that type of player, such as Milan or Juventus.

I don't want Neymar to go to Barcelona, even though I think he will. But I'm so certain people will eat their words about his success at Barça after a season or two.

I've just seen it too many times. There may be an exception, but it is much more likely there won't be.

Ibra's case was more that we wanted his usual #10 role rather than being deployed into his rigid targetman role which frankly was a miscalculated mistake by Guardiola. It doesn't reflect anyway on Guardiola since Ibra definitely could have handled the problem better with a more civil solution.

Believe me I wouldn't be surprised if you were right in all aspects here especially given he played vs teams with little tactical/defensive discipline in Brasil. What will be interesting to see is how he will cope in the roles he is placed in, how his ego will be adjusted coming into Barcelona and how a young and inexprienced Tito will handle such a superstar. Maybe he can change his game for the benefit of his team or at least himself as Rivaldo himself changed his game in someways for Barca much to the team and his own footballing benefit. Truth be told there are too many factors to calculate on how it will end up.

In the end receiving a superstar can only be a good thing despite the added tactical concerns.

by danyjr Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:30 am

Generally, teams with a superstar tend to build themselves around that gem player. Ronaldinho, Ibrahimović, Cristiano, Messi and Neymar are like that. It is obvious how more and more Barcelona have been built around the Messi pillar than say, 3-4 years ago. I'm sure time will tell, I just don't want another super talent not living to expectations. Yes, he might be OK for Barcelona, but modern football is so tactically demanding that I can't help but think he can offer much more in another team which plays to his strengths.

by The Franchise Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:56 am

I think people are completely going over the top when the talk about Ibra at Barca. Or at least over-complicating it far more than needed.

He didnt succed because we used him as a 9 and he isnt one. No more and no less.

by The Franchise Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:58 am

danyjr wrote:Generally, teams with a superstar tend to build themselves around that gem player. Ronaldinho, Ibrahimović, Cristiano, Messi and Neymar are like that.

Myth.

Players just need to fit a role.

Zidane, Pele, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Kaka, Ronaldo and others all worked fine surrounded by other superstars. Players just need the correct roles.

by Gil Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:01 am

The Franchise wrote:
danyjr wrote:Generally, teams with a superstar tend to build themselves around that gem player. Ronaldinho, Ibrahimović, Cristiano, Messi and Neymar are like that.

Myth.

Players just need to fit a role.

Zidane, Pele, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Kaka, Ronaldo and others all worked fine surrounded by other superstars. Players just need the correct roles.

WAIT WHAT? EXPLAIN PLEASE.

by Onyx Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:02 am

Barca's wingers are usually inside forwards. Sanchez doesn't work well since he isn't an inside forward. He offers more, like Neymar.

by The Franchise Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:08 am

Gil wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
danyjr wrote:Generally, teams with a superstar tend to build themselves around that gem player. Ronaldinho, Ibrahimović, Cristiano, Messi and Neymar are like that.

Myth.

Players just need to fit a role.

Zidane, Pele, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Kaka, Ronaldo and others all worked fine surrounded by other superstars. Players just need the correct roles.

WAIT WHAT? EXPLAIN PLEASE.

Figo, Raul and Ronaldo werent superstars for Madrid? Henry for France?

Ronaldo with Kaka, Ronadinho and Rivaldo at different times.

The others with each other?

by danyjr Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:10 am

Zidane, Kaká, Rivaldo played midfield, which was fine. Neymar plays in a different position, which in a 4-3-3 has a very rigidly defined role, unlike a midfielder. You can't afford to give freedom to two players in the attacking third, you'll be punished big time.

by The Franchise Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:13 am

Okay, but lets not throw big generalised comments out there like you did. It is very possible for stars to play with each other.

Also, Kaka and Rivaldo barely played midfield..we are talking semantics here, they did their damage in the final third of the pitch.

by Ganso Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:55 am

Kaka is basically a striker....from the little I know/seen,Rivaldo too

by jibers Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:07 am

Honestly I think Neymar will be fine. In the games were Barcelona come up against teams like Chelsea and Celtic, another direct fantasista is needed. Neymar could be a massive solution.

by The Sanchez Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:28 am

Neymar IMO will take a long time to develop into the Barca system. The fact that he will be tracking back a lot when we don't have the ball and the way that he won't be having a lot of freedom to do his magic will take time to get use to.

by danyjr Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:01 am

Kaká and Rivaldo strikers? Rivaldo has played some matches as a striker, mainly a second striker which works in double striker formations (such as 4-4-2, 3-5-2) or systems with 'behind the striker role' (such as 4-2-3-1). Kaká has never played as a striker, neither in Milan nor in Brazil so I'm not sure what kind of substance some of you have been using while watching football Laughing

. Iniesta, Özil, Kaká, Rivaldo do their damage in the final third but none of them play on the sides in a 4-3-3 (we all know how some Barcelona fans get pissed off when Iniesta is played on the wings). Last but not least, all of the aforementioned players have/had great vision, brilliant at link up play, something which Neymar is not known for.

The truth is, the current Barcelona team is built very heavily on Messi and the reliance on the Argentine has become undeniably more and more every season. This is easily seen on the relative poor form of other strikers, Pedro, Villa and Sánchez. These guys have barely scored while 2-3 seasons ago they were in double figures by this time of the year and Messi had more assists as a result of playing a more deeper creative role. This reliance on Messi can be damaging to Neymar's growth as a player and his usefulness to his side.

I do agree that he can give an extra level of bite to Barcelona's attack when facing up against teams with tight defences that have been problematic with Barcelona (e.g. Celtic, Chelsea). But I have to agree with The Sanchez. Signing Neymar would require changing his nature to suit Barcelona's current system. It is like training a 100m runner to do a marathon.

by The Franchise Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:17 am

No, clearly I said they did their damage in the final first of the pitch. They were 10's, in between forward and midfield. Again, we are getting into semantics here.

Kaka played in the 4321 in Milan, behind a single striker. Rivaldo played in a 3421 for Brazil, behind a single striker.

There if a big diffference between Iniesta and Ozil to these two position, especially Inieta, dont be so silly.

Your overdoing it, as I aid before, your analogy between the 100m marathon and a sprinter is way off. Its is more like a 100m and 200m sprinter.

Villa in the 11' season was fantastic in his role, so let us not pretend the situation is impossible.

by Ganso Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:19 am

Kaka played as a striker alongside pippo under carlo.

by danyjr Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:13 pm

Neymar ain't a trequartista. He played briefly behind Borges in Santos and even then it wasn't a traditional number 10 role. I ain't going to say anything else. Things will be proven in the future.

Also, please stop being so obsessed with me and my comments.

by The Franchise Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:25 pm

Lets agree, you stop saying things which make no sense and I leave you alone? I think we both will be happier with that.

by Adit Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:36 pm

He should join a team that will suit his style and give him enough freedom to do those fancy stuffs,in Barca i dont think he will have a free role or even has the chance to become spine of the team with Messi already there.

by sportsczy Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:13 pm

It's a long time between now and the end of WC 2014... i don't think anything is set at all.

by Onyx Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:46 pm

If his contract ends in 2014, then wouldn't that mean a team would buy him next Summer?

by Ganso Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:12 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:If his contract ends in 2014, then wouldn't that mean a team would buy him next Summer?

Thats just one of the many reasons everyone thinks he already has a pre contract with barca.

by danyjr Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:57 pm

Muricy Ramalho wrote:"Barca are the team that best fit the characteristics of Neymar," Ramalho added. "Everyone likes watching their football. They are a team that plays free-flowing football.

"Today, Madrid have a great coach, but they are very tactical. [Jose] Mourinho plays rigid tactics and they must be obeyed.

"From my point of view it is difficult to do that with Neymar. Neymar cannot put in a fixed position and left there. That would be killing the boy. So, today, the ideal team for him is Barcelona.

"Great players understand each other. [Barca] have many great players and have been playing well together for a long time. Neymar would grow so much there.

"One day I'd like to see it. I'd love to see together the 'pair' [Messi & Neymar] to see what would happen. And I am sure it would be something really spectacular."

by VanDeezNuts Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:04 pm

there is no reason why 2 players like messi and neymar cant play together.. in my honest opinion i think they are more likely to complement each other really well.

even if they both have free roles-

structure is not always key to success, i think a lot of teams have done well with more free-form structured formations.

look at madrid 09 with pellegrinis attacking 4-2-2-2 really got the best out of ronaldo and kaka that season. very free-role oriented, both kaka and ronaldo.

by Valkyrja Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:36 pm

vanDEEZ wrote:there is no reason why 2 players like messi and neymar cant play together.. in my honest opinion i think they are more likely to complement each other really well.

even if they both have free roles-

structure is not always key to success, i think a lot of teams have done well with more free-form structured formations.

look at madrid 09 with pellegrinis attacking 4-2-2-2 really got the best out of ronaldo and kaka that season. very free-role oriented, both kaka and ronaldo.

we played so beautiful that year. s**t that lyon match... higuain pissed me off that night.

by barca 2011 Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:13 am

---------------vv------------
alves---pique---puyol----alba
---------------busi-----------
---------xavi-----------------
--alexis----------------iniesta
---------messi---------------
-------------------neymar---

Tito could try an inverted 4-4-1-1 like so. There wouldnt be too much change and that would certainly give both attackers more freedom.

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