Re: Torres Watch- 14 goals this season

by The Sanchez Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:06 am

14 goals?? This is the Fernando Torres we all know right? Shocked

by FennecFox7 Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:30 am

RedOranje wrote:Keep moving the goal posts (figuratively) and twisting the stats to suit your argument, then.

He's right. A few games don't count. He needs to do it consistently.

by RedOranje Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:17 am

Giggity5313 wrote:
RedOranje wrote:Keep moving the goal posts (figuratively) and twisting the stats to suit your argument, then.
He's right. A few games don't count. He needs to do it consistently.

That's not what he said in the slightest for the comments I was responding to, though.

by LeSwagg James Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:27 am

Torres still sucks.. Just saying

eco smile

by fatman123 Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:02 am

Harry Redknapp wrote:More goals than Benzema, Higuain, Huntelaar, Milito, (insert Juve striker), Holt, Rooney, Aguero, Tevez, Dzeko, Long, Defoe, Ba, Cisse.

Not even in the same league as Shane Long

by Arquitecto Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:15 pm

Torres goals:

Scored 1 vs City in the Community shield and lost 2-3

Scored 1 vs Wigan in a 4-2 route Scored then 2nd vs a cringe worthy Newcastle in a 2-0 result.

In comes a gap of 4 games without a goal, 6 if you include Espana.

Scores vs 1 vs Wolves (COC) in a 6-0 route

Scores 1 vs Arsenal in a 1-2 win for Chelsea

Scores 1 vs Norwich in a 4-1 route

Then a 5 game gap without scoring. 6 if you include Espana

Scores vs Shaktar in a 3-2 win for Chelsea

Then comes a 6 game gap without scoring.

Scores 2 vs a almost B-side Nordsjaelland who have no incentive to even play along with having an atrocious team.

Scores 2 vs a relegation battling Sunderland for a 1-3 win to Chelsea

Doesn't score in the CWC final.

Scores 1 vs Leeds in a 1-5 route.

Scores vs Villa in a EIGHT-NIL route.

You be the judge and tell me how many of those goals were actually crucial, weren't against pathetic sides, and weren't in routes in which even Ivanovic scores.

And the list given of strikers who have less than him is ridiculous given more than half of them have far less minutes, play in a role which requires much more than scoring if not at all, who don't have Mata, Hazard and Oscar behind them, weren't bought for 50 million, or didn't such large gaps of not scoring.

Stats are deceiving. There is a reason why Chelsea fans haven't endeared to him.

Torres is a flat track bully.

by FalcaoPunch Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:50 pm

Arquitecto wrote:Torres goals:

Scored 1 vs City in the Community shield and lost 2-3

Scored 1 vs Wigan in a 4-2 route Scored then 2nd vs a cringe worthy Newcastle in a 2-0 result.

In comes a gap of 4 games without a goal, 6 if you include Espana.

Scores vs 1 vs Wolves (COC) in a 6-0 route

Scores 1 vs Arsenal in a 1-2 win for Chelsea

Scores 1 vs Norwich in a 4-1 route

Then a 5 game gap without scoring. 6 if you include Espana

Scores vs Shaktar in a 3-2 win for Chelsea

Then comes a 6 game gap without scoring.

Scores 2 vs a almost B-side Nordsjaelland who have no incentive to even play along with having an atrocious team.

Scores 2 vs a relegation battling Sunderland for a 1-3 win to Chelsea

Doesn't score in the CWC final.

Scores 1 vs Leeds in a 1-5 route.

Scores vs Villa in a EIGHT-NIL route.

You be the judge and tell me how many of those goals were actually crucial, weren't against pathetic sides, and weren't in routes in which even Ivanovic scores.

And the list given of strikers who have less than him is ridiculous given more than half of them have far less minutes, play in a role which requires much more than scoring if not at all, who don't have Mata, Hazard and Oscar behind them, weren't bought for 50 million, or didn't such large gaps of not scoring.

Stats are deceiving. There is a reason why Chelsea fans haven't endeared to him.

Torres is a flat track bully.

Preach.

by OLpower Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:58 pm

Torres is back at scoring goals, and seem to score a lof of them, even if he is not still the motor of his team. It is a good beginning.

by Gil Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:40 pm

Arquitecto wrote:Torres goals:

Scored 1 vs City in the Community shield and lost 2-3

Scored 1 vs Wigan in a 4-2 route Scored then 2nd vs a cringe worthy Newcastle in a 2-0 result.

In comes a gap of 4 games without a goal, 6 if you include Espana.

Scores vs 1 vs Wolves (COC) in a 6-0 route

Scores 1 vs Arsenal in a 1-2 win for Chelsea

Scores 1 vs Norwich in a 4-1 route

Then a 5 game gap without scoring. 6 if you include Espana

Scores vs Shaktar in a 3-2 win for Chelsea

Then comes a 6 game gap without scoring.

Scores 2 vs a almost B-side Nordsjaelland who have no incentive to even play along with having an atrocious team.

Scores 2 vs a relegation battling Sunderland for a 1-3 win to Chelsea

Doesn't score in the CWC final.

Scores 1 vs Leeds in a 1-5 route.

Scores vs Villa in a EIGHT-NIL route.

You be the judge and tell me how many of those goals were actually crucial, weren't against pathetic sides, and weren't in routes in which even Ivanovic scores.

And the list given of strikers who have less than him is ridiculous given more than half of them have far less minutes, play in a role which requires much more than scoring if not at all, who don't have Mata, Hazard and Oscar behind them, weren't bought for 50 million, or didn't such large gaps of not scoring.

Stats are deceiving. There is a reason why Chelsea fans haven't endeared to him.

Torres is a flat track bully.

by RedOranje Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:18 pm

"Flat track bully"

Funny, back when Rooney and in particular Berbatov received the same tag many were defending that as a key to winning titles... now it's a criticism. Hypocrisy.

I'm no huge fan of Torres anymore, but the nonsense being thrown around in this thread is a bit silly.

by Arquitecto Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:25 pm

RedOranje wrote:"Flat track bully"

Funny, back when Rooney and in particular Berbatov received the same tag many were defending that as a key to winning titles... now it's a criticism. Hypocrisy.

I'm no huge fan of Torres anymore, but the nonsense being thrown around in this thread is a bit silly.

Except Rooney and Berbatov never were Flat track bullys. Roonay and Berbatov despite minor inconsistencies scored on a regular basis. Rooney and Berbatov also contributed well onto general play while not scoring and did not disappear on a regular basis like Torres did.

It also amuses me that you call it hypocrisy considering I only name Torres' Chelsea career (this year in particular) as being a flat track bully while not mentioning his previous club performances.

Instead of tagging it nonsense why not prove on how Torres is NOT a flat track bully. I'd be quite interested to hear.

by RedOranje Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:35 pm

Fallacious arguments are always fallacious Arq, and I've no time or patience to deal with them even when they're well written.

Berbatov was indeed labelled as a flat track bully in his first season with Manchester United and the title was indeed defended by more than a few on the forums then.

by Arquitecto Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:38 pm

RedOranje wrote:Fallacious arguments are always fallacious Arq, and I've no time or patience to deal with them even when they're well written.

Berbatov was indeed labelled as a flat track bully in his first season with Manchester United and the title was indeed defended by more than a few on the forums then.

Yet Berbatov played in a system which clearly did not suit his strengths along with embracing those attributes. Torres on the other hand has a side built around him with 3 excellent AMs supplying his needs consistently.

Also, I don't see how Berbatov's labels are relevant to this debate especially considering I never even labelled Berbatov a flat track bully. So how does this come into the context of hypocrisy?

by RedOranje Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:50 pm

I did not say you were a hypocrite, I said many who defended the label when it was applied to Berbatov and are now attacking Torres are. Yes, you brought up the flat-track bully label and argument, but many have made a similar argument before now and several have agreed with you since.

by DeletedUser#1 Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:51 pm

Not to mention the amount of assists Torres gets.

It's very high for a number 9.

so it's not like he only scores, he is like a Benzema which actually scores goals.

by LeSwagg James Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:29 pm

Harry Redknapp wrote:Not to mention the amount of assists Torres gets.

It's very high for a number 9.

so it's not like he only scores, he is like a Benzema which actually scores goals.

Torres doesn't play along side a black hole who sucks up all of the goals (Cristiano).. Chelsea is built around Torres to score goals, yet he still struggles

Benzema is much better than Torres..

by Abramovich Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:35 pm

The team wasnt built for him under the RDM days, regardless he still sucks and has a lot to prove.

by CBarca Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:02 pm

Berbatov's overall play is light years ahead of Torres. Even if Berbatov doesn't score, he was always positively effecting play. That's even under a system from SAF that didn't suit him at all. Rooney is pretty much the same way, but has always had the luxury of fitting into (in part because of his talent) a system that he worked well in.

Torres has decent overall play, but if he's not scoring he's often disappearing. Berbatov is almost Zlatan like in his play up front.

I'm not one that would label Berba a flat track bully either though, since he's been one of my favorite strikers over the last 6 years.

by FennecFox7 Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:45 pm

RedOranje wrote:"Flat track bully"

Funny, back when Rooney and in particular Berbatov received the same tag many were defending that as a key to winning titles... now it's a criticism. Hypocrisy.

I'm no huge fan of Torres anymore, but the nonsense being thrown around in this thread is a bit silly.

CBarca wrote:Berbatov's overall play is light years ahead of Torres. Even if Berbatov doesn't score, he was always positively effecting play.

This ffs. And not just berbatov, rooney can even play as a CM.
Rooney and berbatov are much, much more complete.

by RedOranje Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:20 pm

And again, the story changes from where it was in his first season with United. Do people really have this short-term memory or do you all actively say such contradicting things while knowing they conflict?

by stevieg8 Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:58 am

RedOranje wrote:And again, the story changes from where it was in his first season with United. Do people really have this short-term memory or do you all actively say such contradicting things while knowing they conflict?

Maybe it was different people saying it then. Considering I wasn't privvy to the conversations the first time around, I don't know for sure. But people on here have a tendency to lump things together as "the opinion of the forum" and then criticize individuals who break with that as "hypocritical," when the truth is that we're a large group with varying opinions.

Maybe, instead of appealing to what the general forum consensus was before as indicative of some great conspiracy (or some minor unintelligence), you should work under the assumption that these people weren't part of the group you had a problem with and actually respond to their points. IMHO, it would at least facilitate discussion, instead of stagnating another thread with ad hominum attacks.

by Arquitecto Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:45 pm

stevieg8 wrote:
RedOranje wrote:And again, the story changes from where it was in his first season with United. Do people really have this short-term memory or do you all actively say such contradicting things while knowing they conflict?

Maybe it was different people saying it then. Considering I wasn't privvy to the conversations the first time around, I don't know for sure. But people on here have a tendency to lump things together as "the opinion of the forum" and then criticize individuals who break with that as "hypocritical," when the truth is that we're a large group with varying opinions.

Maybe, instead of appealing to what the general forum consensus was before as indicative of some great conspiracy (or some minor unintelligence), you should work under the assumption that these people weren't part of the group you had a problem with and actually respond to their points. IMHO, it would at least facilitate discussion, instead of stagnating another thread with ad hominum attacks.

Was just about to reply until I saw this. Took the words out of my mouth. I don't see how previous labels are co-relevant to what we label Torres.

Harry Redknapp wrote:Not to mention the amount of assists Torres gets.

It's very high for a number 9.

so it's not like he only scores, he is like a Benzema which actually scores goals.

Are you serious? Your actually comparing Torres to Benzema?

Lets look at the difference.

Torres: 14 goals and 2 assists for 2012/13. In a whooping 29 appearances.

Karim Benzema: 9 goals and 11 assists in 24 appearances.

Want to also know other differences? Benzema plays in a dual-task role which has him play as the creative fulcrum almost as an SS for Real Madrid whilst tasked with scoring goals for them. His job is not only to score goals but to link up play in order to provide and force feed Ronaldo as many goals as possible.

Torres on the other hand plays a standard Striker role with a side built around him (unlike Benzema) supplied by 3 brilliant AMs.

What else? Benzema is consistently influencing games, doesn't disappear, contributes to general play

Torres' idea of contributing is either sulking, disappearing or at best drifting wide due to pressure and crossing in from there. Thats where it ends.

Benzema is miles ahead in every aspect at the moment.

by FennecFox7 Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:59 am

Oranje you act as if man u fans were ripping him apart. Truth is berbatov during his "breakthrough" season where he had quite a few goals, was actually praised by many man u fans and there was a significant amount not wanting him to leave.

by Abramovich Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:28 am

Red is right the man utd fans did rip into Berbatov due to work rate not fitting in system etc, even when he got the golden boot the same argument about bully came through and lack of important goals ala the same Torres point.

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