Is Juve a top team now?

Wolfsburg's title was a great achievement, although to praise Barzagli for this great season and then one paragraph later slate Nastasic for "one good season" is a little unfair. Obviously you will point out that Barzagli has had additional good seasons since joining Juve (which is true), at which point I will point out that Serie A is not exactly filled with attacking talent. After Ibra left what remains are Cavani, Di Natale, and El Shaarawy - not exactly a plethora of threatening offensive players in that league.

A CB is not judged by how he performs v individual talents as that is fullbacks, yet how they collective organize their defence, assort themselves within their zones, react to attacking situations and their composure during the heat of attack. All of which Barzagli has performed superbly within. Italian teams are designed to defeat their mostly leak-free defences to which is a constant recycling of tactics and methods to unlock that defence. Post 2010 this feature is even more apparent.

Nastasic cannot be compared given he has proven little outside his season at City while Barza's proven performances are obvious.

Oh they were destroyed now? Missing the cut by 1 point in the group of death in the club's debut season in the Champions league is getting destroyed? Well then. Also quite a bit more pressure on Kompany, since he was stuck bailing out Lescott and Kolarov rather than having Chiellini and Bonucci as partners.

As for this season, while there are no excuses for that 1-3 debacle away to Ajax....Destroyed? Have you forgotten that their group consisted of Madrid and Dortmund (Two eventual semi-finalists, one seemingly destined for the final) - and that City played both Madrid and Dortmund extremely closely over the 4 matches?

Additionally, Kompany's weakness against forwards who drop deep is A) Hardly unique and B) No defender is without weakness, so pointing out his is no argument against his status at WC (City best defensive record in the league btw)

I mentioned Kompany, not City.

Watch his performances v Dortmund, Ajax both legs and Real Madrid twice where he was thoroughly humiliated by CR to which was shocking. He is a good CB and had a fantastic season last year (aside from his shocking EL performances) yet saying he is superior to Barzagli is not convincing considering tactically and what has been proven, Barza is a superior CB.

Their defensive records also is contributed by Lescott's excellent season, their fullbacks (Micah & Zabaletta) and even Kolarov who only has turned to shit this year. If anything, Nastasic has bailed him out too many times for him to hold his head up high in boasting on his performances. He struggles v forwards he rely on guile and trickery rather than pace and power.

Yeh all Ramos has accomplished at CB is a Euro, 3 straight trips to the CL semi-finals, and a league title...

Whereas Barzagli got embarassed in the Euro final, and has 0 trips to the CL semis

Does that reflect on his defensive performances individually? I think not. Ramos did not stand out as a defensive exception within his trips to the semi-finals. Which is why this forum continually criticizes Ramos for his defensive frailties. He was excellent within the La Liga last year yet defensively exposed within the Champions League to which he received criticism for his marking and positioning.

Espana? Lets admit, the attacks within the Euros simply weren't good enough to continually thwart the Spanish midfield which is essentially their best form of defence. It was a Euros to which attacks did not expose the Spanish midfield enough to bypass their core to actually test Ramos and Pique. When it was bypassed, Ramos was shaky and suspect, Pique even worse. His best performances were v Ireland, Portugal. Vs Italia (group stage) Croatia and at times v France he was an absolute horrorshow as we were lucky not to concede. There is a reason why he is a joke on this forum now, sadly.

And Barzagli was in a team that could reach the CL semi-finals? He carried their defence on their back compensating for Zaccardo and that other CB within the CL (group stages) and Bundesliga.

Euro Final? 3 of the goals came from the fullback errors while the 4th on a counter exposed by Alba on the wing to which Barza was off yet still he was the best CB for Italia in that game. Italia was down to 10 men majority of the game, switched formation pre-match and tired after 1 in a half days of rest to which is their weakness. Lets not discount all his other performances.

A teams success does not directly reflect on an individuals success as this misconception largely is attributed onto CBs for some reason despite not being reflective of their ability and performances. Midfield, tactics and collectivity is usually ignored.

I guess I imagined Varane playing excellently against Barcelona, and Madrid having a great defensive record in the league despite being only 19

While he had a poor game against Gala, he was beaten by two pieces of skill by two great players...thats what happens when you are 19

Which of the Dortmund goals were his fault though

I don't criticize Varane yet only when it comes to putting him on the same pedestal as Barzagli when he has had only half a season of recognition.

Playing v Barca isn't enough as Botia, Flanio and Rodriguez all perform regularly v Barca yet do f**k all outside those teams. Proving yourself v one form attack does not launch you into the upper echelons of centrebacks especially above ones who are proven like Barza. This doesn't mean I do not rate him highly as I definitely do, and say he will be the best CB in the world soon. There is a reason why I call him heir to Nesta

Dortmund? His stonewall pen not given through his trip on Reus. 1st, 3rd and 4th goal to which both him and Pepe were at fault. Pepe was worse yet Varane not a victim of bad defense, but a bad individual performance himself.

Hummels is prone to the occasional shocker, but 95% clean and 5% nightmare is far better than can be said for most CBs out there...and no, I have not seen many of his mistakes in the Bundesliga, although no doubt you have .... by the way how do you manage to watch enough football to be an expert in all 5 leagues simultaneously?

Occasional is an understatement given the shockers he has had this season. His shocker v Hamburg, Shaktar 1st leg, Schalke, Hamburg again, Leverkusen, Malaga, and Dusseldorf just off the top of my head. He stays since outside his lapses he is a very good CB and contributes abundantly to their attack.

Expert? I watch Dortmund Bayern and Augsburg from Bundesliga. I don't watch much PL bar big games and the occasional match outside Liverpool. Serie A and Ligue 1 the only leagues I watch in dedication. And they do have different timings. How is that relevant?

Yes yes everyone knows you hate England...What has Rio done anyway other than be on a team that ran away with the league and looked to be into the CL quarters before being jobbed by the ref...How many people on GL had him in their EPL team of the season? Quite a few IIRC, because he has been great

Hate England? On what basis? Just because I don't rate the PL and make fun of their culture? I gave nothing but respect to them in the Euros and support and English team. Not rating a league doesn't equal me hating them. Not a convincing claim.

Once again, Man United's running away with the lack comes down to their lack of competition (City is LOL), their overall tactical set-up and RvP. Ferdinand has been good yet Evans on another level.
Tottenham 2-3, Stoke 4-2, Norwich loss, City first leg, and v Newcastle and Braga just an example of his errors throughout the season. He has been good by the standards he recently set for himself yet been rather inconsistent this season within some games. Cannot be considered above Barza.

Team of the years? Well by that logic Barza is rated top 3 by almost everyone here along with team of the year twice in a row.

Notice in the case of Lichtsteiner I specifically said I would ignore because everyone knows I hate that douche..When pressed for further comment I said there were 10 RBs I would choose over him, not that 10 were better...Again, I will gladly admit to my preference to have my Eyelids torn off than see Lichsteiner in an Inter shirt

Apologies for misunderstanding and I agree with this. I absolutely despise Lichtsteiner.

I mentioned nothing about his mistakes in this thread. My claim is based solely on the competition at GK. Buffon has been good, as good as some of the other talented GKs across Europe? Not for me.

Who has really deserved to be considerably above him this season? Last season and this season (1st half especially) he has been vital for Juventus' defence to which his intelligence and lightning saves have saved Conte's team many times. Best this season? Maybe not yet he remains world class and not just out of his name.

Goodness me that is some revisionist history there. Yes, Milan's midfield was built around Pirlo. The only way that team worked was by flanking him with two runners who covered up for his defensive weakness...Just like Juve, just like Italy at the Euros

No, this is a misconception due to the conception that Gattuso is partnered with Pirlo whereas Ancelotti's system was built far more around Seedorf and Kaka (and Costa when played) then Pirlo. We tried to build the system around him in 2004 and that was a failed experiment. Only Gattuso was tasked to protect him yet even that was exhagerrated. Italia he has a more advanced position whereas the team would be built more around DDR then Pirlo as DDR's play and positioning to his team mates was clear evidence v Germany, Ireland and Croatia. Only v England Pirlo was dropped deeper. Marchisio was assigned to cover his defensive frailties only in the group stages until his position completely changed post group stages, DDR not assigned either.

For Juve? You are correct as the midfield is built purely around him.

Thats the thing though...Marchisio isn't "reborn", he hasn't undergone some total transformation...He is playing better now than he used to because he has better players around him, not because he has morphed into some Elite player...He is a great complement to other great players, not a great player himself

He has though. Under Lippi for Italia and the clowns that managed him pre-Conte, he was assigned as a Mezz'alla, SS, winger, wide forward yet not the position he currently plays now. 3-4-3 he was a wingback while 4-3-1-2 (his bogy formation) a mez'zalla to which he struggled. Under Conte he has a free box-to-box role down the centre which has released his excellent traits. I disagree that he is a compliment to players. His goals, assists, passing, off the ball movement and many games this season and last in which he has single-handedly carried Juve at times is a testament to how different of a player he is now. You've never rated him I've noticed yet what I see is quite a complete player whose contributions for his team finally are being noticed, if not before.

Perhaps we will someday reach that limit, I suspect around the time we find the limit to your many assorted biases: Pro-Italy, Pro-Spain, Pro-Basque, Pro-Milan, Pro-Liverpool, Anti-EPL, Anti-England etc

Pro, yes. Yet not anti-PL and England. I simply don't enjoy English football and dislike Roy Hodgson. I only criticize the PL for its football and methods used to launch themselves into elites. I have shown little bias towards my allegiances bar Basque to which I admittedly I am biased. For my teams and countries that is not the case, case in point Espana above along with Ramos to who I am a fan of. We've had this debate too many times now.

Conclusively I have mentioned in chat that you are a brilliant poster and footballing mind, yet like Mole for Liverpool (not recently though) I take your opinions on Calcio or anything Italian not to seriously and with a grain of salt, something to which I tell you directly. It is not a deficiency as we all hold our own, like me.

serie a doesnt have attacking talent? loooool oooh my goodness....i cant take this anymore

Sampdoria deserves to be in top 3 European list.

djfawnz wrote:serie a doesnt have attacking talent? loooool oooh my goodness....i cant take this anymore

Not what I said, I said there isn't a plethora of it...

name me the 10 or 15 best attacking players in Serie A

They've been overrated ever since they battered an average chelsea team in the CL.

They're merely an above average team that benefits from playing in a League nearly devoid of any talent.

Inter, Roma, Milan are all shit teams nowadays and Napoli/Lazio are both pretenders.

Still need a couple of signings in the summer before they can be labelled an elite team.

Gotta love the hyperbole

Average team to elite with 2 signings

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

Above Average team to elite with a couple of signings

Fixed

Gil wrote:They've been overrated ever since they battered an average chelsea team in the CL.

They're merely an above average team that benefits from playing in a League nearly devoid of any talent.

Inter, Roma, Milan are all shit teams nowadays and Napoli/Lazio are both pretenders.

Still need a couple of signings in the summer before they can be labelled an elite team.

We've also beat shakhtar, celtic 3-0, won the league twice in a row, we had a great contribution to an ELITE Italy team that beat Germany and England at Euro..
and Milan shit? Lol, they're better than Chelsea ...

Dortmund couldn't even pass the group stages last year in a weak group and were labeled by some as a shit team ... now they're probably gonna fight for the best team in the Europe trophy .. They changed almost nothing in the summer.. But i guess last year they were not elite too, the same players..

and to say the champions of Italy, or Germany,ENgland and Spain are not elite you must be very stupid, or you don't understand what a strong sport competition means. ...

Swanhends wrote:

djfawnz wrote:serie a doesnt have attacking talent? loooool oooh my goodness....i cant take this anymore

Not what I said, I said there isn't a plethora of it...

name me the 10 or 15 best attacking players in Serie A

No order
Jovetic, Di Natale, Cavani, Shaarawy, Cassano, Balotelli, Vucinic, Lamela, Totti, Klose, Hamsik, Palacio etc

tuddor wrote:

Swanhends wrote:

djfawnz wrote:serie a doesnt have attacking talent? loooool oooh my goodness....i cant take this anymore

Not what I said, I said there isn't a plethora of it...

name me the 10 or 15 best attacking players in Serie A

No order
Jovetic, Di Natale, Cavani, Shaarawy, Cassano, Balotelli, Vucinic, Lamela, Totti, Klose, Hamsik, Palacio etc

RVP, Rooney, Kagawa, Berbarov, Mata, Hazard, Cazorla, Bale, Suarez, Aguero, Tevez, Dzeko, Lukaku, Benteke, Walcott

CR7, Messi, Villa, Falcao, Higuian, Benzema, Ozil, Cesc, Soldado, Isco, Sanchez, Aduriz

Lewandowski, Keissling, Schurrle, Mandzukic, Reus, Gotze, Kuba, Ribery, Muller, Kroos, Gomez, Pizarro, Robben

Surely I'm not the only one who thinks Serie A looks a little out of place here after Cavani?

Swanhends wrote:

tuddor wrote:

Swanhends wrote:

Not what I said, I said there isn't a plethora of it...

name me the 10 or 15 best attacking players in Serie A

No order
Jovetic, Di Natale, Cavani, Shaarawy, Cassano, Balotelli, Vucinic, Lamela, Totti, Klose, Hamsik, Palacio etc

RVP, Rooney, Kagawa, Berbarov, Mata, Hazard, Cazorla, Bale, Suarez, Aguero, Tevez, Dzeko, Lukaku, Benteke, Walcott

CR7, Messi, Villa, Falcao, Higuian, Benzema, Ozil, Cesc, Soldado, Isco, Sanchez, Aduriz

Lewandowski, Keissling, Schurrle, Mandzukic, Reus, Gotze, Kuba, Ribery, Muller, Kroos, Gomez, Pizarro, Robben

Surely I'm not the only one who thinks Serie A looks a little out of place here after Cavani?

Not really. You could also add Milito, Pjanic, Hernanes, Pazzini, Denis, Osvaldo, Icardi, Vidal, Cerci, Borja, Miccoli, Asamoah, Insigne, Marchisio, Pirlo (deep-lying attacking talent )

I'd say if you pick the best 10-15 out of all of those and the players mentioned before, that's comparable to the lists for the other leagues.

Swanhends wrote:

tuddor wrote:

Swanhends wrote:

Not what I said, I said there isn't a plethora of it...

name me the 10 or 15 best attacking players in Serie A

No order
Jovetic, Di Natale, Cavani, Shaarawy, Cassano, Balotelli, Vucinic, Lamela, Totti, Klose, Hamsik, Palacio etc

RVP, Rooney, Kagawa, Berbarov, Mata, Hazard, Cazorla, Bale, Suarez, Aguero, Tevez, Dzeko, Lukaku, Benteke, Walcott

CR7, Messi, Villa, Falcao, Higuian, Benzema, Ozil, Cesc, Soldado, Isco, Sanchez, Aduriz

Lewandowski, Keissling, Schurrle, Mandzukic, Reus, Gotze, Kuba, Ribery, Muller, Kroos, Gomez, Pizarro, Robben

Surely I'm not the only one who thinks Serie A looks a little out of place here after Cavani?

Except that the only major difference in these lists relates to hype. How many of the players on this list have actually had great seasons? The Bundesliga list is balling, however Kagawa has done sod all in the Premier League and Europe, Berbatov is a tremendous talent but overall as a player is hardly more impressive than those on Serie A's lists, Aguero and the Colobus Monkey who goes missing for months at a time have again been poor all season, Dzeko has again done absolutely nothing in Europe, Lukaku is a techniqueless man child, Benteke has half a season of form and Walcott has been non-existent since his contract extension. The others are legit.

It would be pointless to jump into your other posts given the fact that we would largely be repeating the conversation that Arq is having with you, however you've taken countless comparisons which are a toss up at best and come down on the exact same side time and time again. The truth of the matter is that every single player you listed is a good player. They're also inconsistent, limited players just like everyone else you'll ever name. It's frankly insulting to players such as Cassano, Totti and the rest to be dismissed in one fell swoop as you have attempted.

As for the La Liga list, you're again elevating players on the basis of past glories rather than considering their form. I'm not criticising players on the basis of a few weeks of poor performances. Oezil has been an absolute shadow of himself in recent times, Higuain and Benzema are great players who again have looked shadows of themselves. On the basis of what do you mock players without their star power who have actually performed this season?

It's a sport of inches, not miles. On Goallegacy though, you're either world class or a Championship player.

Dos

gil wthell are youtalking about?? juventus average team overhyped? im not gonna even waste my time with you

Juventus are the next power house after Bayern and Dortmund, we are better than Real Madrid and Manchester United but equal with Barcelona.


We are 3 signinngs away from being as good as Dortmund.

Gil wrote:They've been overrated ever since they battered an average chelsea team in the CL.

They're merely an above average team that benefits from playing in a League nearly devoid of any talent.

Inter, Roma, Milan are all shit teams nowadays and Napoli/Lazio are both pretenders.

Still need a couple of signings in the summer before they can be labelled an elite team.

Gil strikes again Comedy.

OT:

Serie A? Jovetic, Di Natale, Cavani, Shaarawy, Cassano, Balotelli, Vucinic, Lamela, Totti, Klose, Hamsik, Palacio Milito, Pjanic, Hernanes, Pazzini, Denis, Osvaldo, Icardi,Insigne, Miccoli, Edu Vargas, Diamanti, Rossi, Sau, Vucinic, Muriel, Cossu, Ljajic, Destro. Not including the new talents being brought out with bright futures. Signs of talent turnaround despite loss of stars is a good sign as now the league is less reliant on star power and finally unearthing talents

Looks good enough for me and certainly not out of place.

Mack10 wrote:Juventus are the next power house after Bayern and Dortmund, we are better than Real Madrid and Manchester United but equal with Barcelona.


We are 3 signinngs away from being as good as Dortmund.

Juve are clearly a fair way off Bayern. 3 world class attacking signings and another 3 quality defensive depth signings away from being as good as them.

Just saw Dosto's post

Milan's RedOrange

Bhends the fighter he is will come up with a response just as good knowing him.

Some of those players are average Arq if we are honest i do agree with Dost in the main though.

The major difference between leagues is the level of hype attributed.

what has kagawa done? even himself said that he should have done more this year. Hazard? Mata? but arent they in a ordinary shitty team that we beat in CL and thats why we are overhyped? a team battling Europa Leagu and 4th place? LOLllllll

Quality an Arsenal dont match my brother. Cazorla? Walcott? my goodness....LUKAKU??? BENTEKE? LOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLL u forgot
and pleas enlighten me what has BERBASHIT done in Fulham?

Villa? has he even played this year? doesnt this dude have less goals than Matri?

Munain? Soldado? Flop Sanchez? lolololol


tell me fine sire where would Soldado could slot in perfectly if he were to be sold?

Dude Giovinco, Vucinic, Sharawi, Balo, Di Natale, Lamela, Osvaldo, Totti, Hernanes, Candreva, Klose, Palacio, Cassano, Milito, Jovetic, Cavani, Hamsik are a lot better than those puny epl players youve mentioned. If you mention Benteke and Walcott then i have to put guys like Alejandro Gomez, Tanque Dennis, Marco Sau, Diamanti and other scrub players


dude when Europe League finishes, Libor Kozak will win the golden boot and he's shit! you dont see me mentionin. that scrub

you put names there just to mention some, but are they really quasi-crack players? dont think so

i mean for real dude, your knowledge is so shit about bundesliga that 80% of the players you mentioned are from 2 teams....so much for attacking pool.....

Arq i forgot Insigne, Icardi and Muriel, but i wouldnt put Edu Vargas....he flopped hard for Napoli, 11m badly spent for them...

Balotelli, El Shaarawy, Cavani, Hamsik, Vucinic, Jovetic, Milito, Cassano, Lamela, and Klose are probably the Top 10. Then there's also Totti, Osvaldo, Hernanes, Miccoli, Rossi, Giovinco, and others as well. And if you want to include Kroos then you can also include Pirlo, Marchisio, Boateng, and Vidal.

Overall, aerie A might be 4th on the list when it comes to forwards and wingers, but its not that far behind that you can call Serie A shit.

Overall, throughout the table, I still think its above La Liga and possibly the Premier League. Juve is the only truly elite team right now, but Milan are very strong, one CB away from competing for everything. Inter is in a rebuilding phase but is still pretty good. Lazio, Roma, Napoli, Fiorentina, and Catania are all stronger than they've been in a long time. The only teams that have really been weakened are Inter and Palermo. Milan was earlier this season but since they've found their rhythym and bought Balotelli they've been very good.

And Juvenal are a true elite team. We smashed Celtic who have been known to give the big teams, especially Barcelona, loads of problems. We beat Shakhtar at the Don Bass, something only Barcelona had done before us in many years. We smashed Chelsea. We topped the second hardest group in the CL. We have the second best defense in the world by goals conceded. We beat Milan, Inter, Napoli, etc this season. If we weren't elite, Milan and other good teams would not park the bus against us. But they do. We got recked by Bayern, but the first leg was really down to poor decision making by Comte, as all our problems came from Quagliarella and Matti not being able to hold the ball up, so it went right back to Bayern. In the second leg, especially in the first half, we showed with our true first team we could compete with them. We certainly did a lot better than any other team this season against Bayern (in the second leg) bar Dortmund. We also were the core of the Italy team that got to the final of the Euros and in my opinion only lost because Prandellis experimentations. Oh, did I mention that we went undefeated for an entire season, when Napoli still had Lavezzi and Milan still had Ibrahimovic and Silva? I think all this shows that we are definitely an elite team. Top 6 for sure, possibly Top 5.

juve101 dont waste your time man its pointless, we'll never win....we'll be seen less cuz we play in Serie A and you know what they say about that league....

ppl talk how shit chelsea is, but when we faced them they were considered top contender, nobody knew how their season was gonna turn out

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Some of those players are average Arq if we are honest i do agree with Dost in the main though.

The major difference between leagues is the level of hype attributed.

I think it comes down to how different leagues have marked to exploit attacks. Serie A teams designed nowadays to unlock tight 3 man Serie A defences who play deep by Fantasisti and SS combinations. Bundesliga increasingly based on wide attacks with 1-2 SS-Poacher pace compliments. EPL around the same yet re-creating the #9 role and its direct decoy implementation. La Liga by building attacks around certain players with certain traits followed by wide forwards.

Obviously the above is generalization. Individuals isn't a pure indicator of an attacks quality necessarily but how they exploit various defences is different situations, how they react to them, how they adapt in Europe, and the features that can be used to stimulate their prowess to attack even better.

Too many factors aren't being named within this thread or GL as a whole, as black & white syndrome is apparent within the forum at times.

I'm going to come out and proactively state that some of the names on the extended Serie A list are making my eyes bleed, however partly due to the illustrious company they are otherwise keeping. They shouldn't be mentioned in the company of Messi, RVP, Cavani etc. I would also like to defend Hazard and Mata from the attack above, they're both excellent players who would challenge almost any starting line-up in the world. Touch, vision, acceleration, an eye for goal and a relatively selfless style.

Again though, each league is fairly evenly stacked for ability.

All of this being said, this thread is starting to look like it's better suited to the right back section. I would like to give the thread an opportunity to return to the topic at hand though, so I won't move it just yet.