3-5-2 in Europe

sportsczy wrote:I have to laugh a little bit when people say Pogba is inconsistent and then suggest Marchisio... oh that model of consistency  I don't think i even remember Marchisio playing in the second half of last season

I am not dissing Pogba he is awesome but he can't coexist in midfield with Pirlo and he goes forward often leaveing us with no BWM or DM. Marchisio always, always is back in the defense which is his strongest side of the game and the area he covers is to damn big

Like I said, we don't really have wing backs either, so the whole 'We are missing a player capable of playing on the right' is fine and all, but it never stopped us buying a CM and sticking him in a wing back position, did it?

Tomwin Lannister wrote:Like I said, we don't really have wing backs either, so the whole 'We are missing a player capable of playing on the right' is fine and all, but it never stopped us buying a CM and sticking him in a wing back position, did it?

Teams started sitting at the back and defending to damn much against us and when we press for goals our CB's are already on oppositions half so one fast counter and we are *bleep*, teams started doing this every game

Yeah, very true. And what's funny as I think Luca pointed out, we're sacrificing an attacker for a defender, and it's not actually helping us defensively

Tomwin Lannister wrote:Yeah, very true. And what's funny as I think Luca pointed out, we're sacrificing an attacker for a defender, and it's not actually helping us defensively

Yeah but we were behind I think even if not I would do that to win that game and we have do admit with Lolo on the field we looked far more dangerous and the game changed

Yeah his presence causes real problems, as good as Tevez is, he's less effective in the box surrounded by players. So even if Llorente's not finishing well, the sheer fact he's on the pitch against teams who are defending with 9-10 men helps us.

Andrew_p wrote:It's best suited to what we've got and it is a formation with mechanics very similar to the 3-5-2 we currently play.

You might think it's best suited too what you got, but the player roles are much different in a 3-5-2 than in a 4-3-1-2. You're basically changing a comfortable 3 man defence to a 4 man defence. A few problems arise, such as the benching of Chiellini, Bonucci or Barzagli and your defenders are not used to playing in a flat back 4. You lot also generally complained about how your wide players are poor and they get so much time on the ball. In a 4-3-1-2 your fullbacks will also be providing as much width as in a 3-5-2 because your fullbacks will be the only wide players.

This may suit your midfield. However, I wonder how Pirlo will do. From the teams that do play a 4-3-1-2 in CLUB football, I'm quite sure nowadays they play a ball winning midfielder in front of the defence instead of a Regista. This mostly comes down too the fact that the Regista loses the ball often and will get caught out of position and he won't have 3 men behind him defending counters, but he will probably have 2 since the fullbacks are high up the pitch. It also comes down too the fact that there aren't many Registas out there nowadays.

A 4-3-1-2 is also highly dependent on the CAM. Who will your CAM be? Will it be Tevez? The CAM should be creative unless you have a Creative ST like Ibra who can create and score, but Juventus does not have that. And, the best CAM's are those with brilliant off the ball movement and have very good lateral movement, like Gotze, Ozil and David Silva. Pogba isn't of that Ilk and I don't think Tevez is either. I also think Tevez is better up front rather than behind.

Tevez and Llorente would be fine strikers for a 4-3-1-2 though.

Then again there are not many players to make this formation work that are on the market. And, if so they're on the market for high prices. Width is also a big factor any wide team can wreck this formation, it's too narrow. It can work in Serie A, but in the CL it's a whole different story.

Andrew_p wrote:We can't just switch to 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 out of the blue with no players suited for those formations and the whole pre-season training being spent focused on 3-5-2.

Exactly! You don't have the players for those systems, the players decide the system. 3-5-2 suits Juve the best at the moment and you are not use too playing a different formation unless you count the 4-3-3.

Andrew_p wrote:Changing formations isn't a simple matter. There are many factors to consider.

And I mentioned them above...

Andrew_p wrote:Besides isn't 4-3-1-2 the formation Milan used in 2007 to win the Chapions Leauge ?

I think 4-3-1-2 hurt us. We used it from 01-06 however, our only physical presence in midfield was Gattuso. Look at our 05 lineup.

Dida, Cafu, Stam, Nesta, Maldini, Pirlo, Gattuso, Seedorf, Kaka, Shevchenko, Crespo/Inzaghi/Tommasson.

That was a creative lineup, but it relied heavily on the fullbacks for width and it was too thin. We could make it work since teams did not play as wide as they do now. Rafa switched to a 3-4-3 in 2005 Athens 2nd half and they managed a comeback. Since then, we became a bit more defensive minded. When we sold Sheva we moved to a 4-3-2-1. That was the formation we used to win the CL in 07. Our midfield was Pirlo, Gattuso, Ambro, Seedorf and Kaka. We were much more balanced and had much more defensive stability.

Even Ancelotti nowadays doesn't use a 4-3-1-2. He uses a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3.

The truth is, the 4-3-1-2 has become obsolete and there are reasons why coaches don't use this formation much anymore.

S wrote:

C.Marchisio #8 wrote:I dont write much but i must put my opinion here  coz i'm furious on this Juve.I know that Juve players cant keep their form for 3 yrs at top but also you cant put a display like last night.The team was without idea and i blame Conte for that.And ofcourse the teams that we play against already read the conte "tactics" ( if a can say tactics) and they sit back and counter us . I dont blame the back line i blame the whole team.I read a Marchisio (i think ) interview and he said that he is happy to see that Tevez i eager to play and has that hunger for trophies like they did past two yrs.Indirectly i think that he said  that boys arent that eager to win as last years.Also  someone above mentioned that CR and Di Maria will tear apart our defence on counters and that is for sure.But on the other side lets be real that this is the max that Conte can get from this team.We won 2 Scudettos and 2 Super Coppa coz the team was more eager more willing to win something and we were injury free also.Now maybe somebody will laugh but we are missing our main man (Pepe) coz his presents,his runs,his will makes other to do their best.We missed that guy last season but coz the lack of competiton it wasnt so noticable.But this year we will feel the gap that Pepe left.Forza Juventus

Not disagreeing with you but common dude we can do better than freaking Pepe.He hasnt played football for 1.5 years.If you are saying we need someone in his mold with slightly more skill ,i agree though.

This whole 'we cant play 4-3-3 without Pepe' thing sounds like a horrible excuse to me.If he really needed a RW in the team,the problem should've been addressed earlier.

I dont say that we cant play 433 without pepe i just said that with his presents Maybe we can be more dangerous upfront

its funny how our board becomes active when we lose/draw.....


I laugh when people say we cannot play 4-3-3

we definitely can

Asamoah has played lb for Ghana many times and done good (so far as much is not asked of him offensively)

not  sure why we didn't persist with our Wakaso interest (he is better than Asamoah on the left)

we can drop Barzagli or Bonucci in a 4-3-3 and I don't see why Tevez and Vucinic cannot play  wings they can cut in to score/assist if needed....

face it though llorente didn't do much yesterday his presence made us look very deadly.... we weren't dangerous till he came in the game......

I always call Conte Stubbornte and people get mad, his stubbornness at never changing formations means an old lady could even figure us out tactically.......

i agree at Bernabeu we should stick with a very strict  defensive 5-3-2 with llorente-tevez in attack because u never know what those 2 might put in, we have to just go in to frustrate Madrid.....

but we should turn the 4-3-3 on Milan this weekend and see how it works out.....

also fighting about Pogba and Marchisio is so lame....

Yes Juve can occasionally play 4-3-3 when in need for a goal but that's it. That's not even just my opinion it's also Conte's who has been working with these guys every single day since 2011.
Assuming that Asamoah can play as a LB (I still think he can't) you don't have the wingers since Conte wants hard working wingers, almost making it a 4-5-1 (one of the reason Conte played Giacch and Pepe over the likes of Elia and Krasic in his first season).

And I believe this wasn't even a formation problem, Juve lacked intensity, accuracy in the final third, high pressing which are Juve's main qualities I mean even the 3-5-2 can be really effective when all players are physically in shape. Having said that, Marotta and Conte should aim for a winger and a LB and perhaps a CM as well (how did Padoin become 5th choice from like being 8/9th? ) for january or the season to come.

The problem is that Conte wants Pogba to attack the flank by design from what i see.  Pirlo is supposed to be the deep lying mid with Pogba supporting the one wingback and Vidal the other wingback as B2Bs.  Vidal and Pogba have corridor defensive responsibility, not central defensive responsibility.

You have 3 CBs and the deep lying midfielder to cover the defensive duties in the center.  That's the whole point of a 352.  If you're going to ask Pogba to cover the center defensively too... then you're not playing a 352... i don't know what it would be tbh

This is the same as Madrid fans criticizing random players when there's a systematic issue.  Pirlo is getting old and the back 3 of Juve are off form... that's the crux of the issues.  It makes juve imbalanced.

Tomwin Lannister wrote:
Yes, it's true we don't have any true wingers that excell in a 4-3-3. But what people seem to be forgetting, is the fact that we don't have any true wing backs. But people forget this completely

But a 4-3-3 with a makeshift winger is better against teams who park the bus than a 3-5-2 with 2 makeshift wingbacks who offer nothing offensively. Not to menion 2 completely isolated strikers, resulting in us playing terrible, slow, long ball football against teams we ought to be picking apart.

Couldn't say it any better. If Conte's willing to play 2 guys out of position as our wingbacks, playing Tevez and Vucinic as wingers is hardly any different.

The one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this post as much is that a 4-3-3 also offers us much more protection out wide. Playing 3-5-2 against a side with an overlapping fullback and a winger means has not worked in the past (e.g. Bayern, Shakthar and Inter Milan last year) so why are we persisting with it?? Breaking it down, 3-5-2 v 4-2-3-1 results in Chiellini/Barzagli drifting wide to mark the opposing winger which is simply suicide given their lack of mobility.

On the other hand, playing 4-3-3 means that the fullbacks mark the opposing winger with our wingers marking the opposing fullbacks. imo much more solid.