Champions League Play-Off 2nd Leg - Arsenal 1 - 0 Besiktas: Another year in the group stages

He's only been back from a world cup winning squad, where he played on the left.. and has played two games.

BTW - I of course agree that he's far better centrally.

AnJl wrote:
Then why the HELL does Wenger PLAY him there? If he knows Ozil can't play ANYWHERE but as an AM, why the hell does he keep playing him out of position?

Is it the first time Wenger has done something with no obvious explanation?

I didn't say he can't play anywhere else, I said he is BEST as an AM and CURRENTLY wasted on the wing. That is not to say he WILL NOT grow into that role given TIME. And giving time means NOT witchhunting from the beginning.

Case in point: Remember Ramsey on the wing?

Peccadillo wrote:He's only been back from a world cup winning squad, where he played on the left.. and has played two games.

BTW - I of course agree that he's far better centrally.

Exactly. He had no preseason to speak of, except a few weeks of training away from the first team. And as soon as he is available for selection, he is expected to play 180 competitive minutes in 4 days and creat 20 chances and make 10 assists and score 10 goals.

FFS, GL. Stop acting like the British media

srigooner wrote:

Peccadillo wrote:He's only been back from a world cup winning squad, where he played on the left.. and has played two games.

BTW - I of course agree that he's far better centrally.

Exactly. He had no preseason to speak of, except a few weeks of training away from the first team. And as soon as he is available for selection, he is expected to play 180 competitive minutes in 4 days and creat 20 chances and make 10 assists and score 10 goals.

FFS, GL. Stop acting like the British media

The only way to get barrel loads of respect from this board is for a player to be British, even if they aren't up to par.

ozil apologizers and excusers will be the most disappointed if this goes on... he doesnt give a sht, he sulks, he is far from being the best AM in the world right now, more like more entitled AM version of berbatov.

ofcourse he can shut the critics by his effort on the pitch but he doesnt seems bothered! there is no smoke without fire!

that is a misperception that he 'doesn't give a shit' and 'sulks'.
That's his normal body language. You better get used to it.

No effort on the pitch

Few players work harder than Ozil on a football pitch. Just because he doesn't like getting stuck in and mixing it with defenders doesn't mean he doesn't work hard and anyone who watches him should be able to spot that. If you go back and watch some of the games he played in, for club and country, you'll find that he's one of the few players who's still working hard trying to create towards the end of a game.

He gets played out of position but for somebody who apparently sulks all the time, he sure does not complain about it. He performs his defensive duties when on the flank, and when he's done helping out the defence, he's busting a gut to get up the pitch. When Arsenal have the ball, he is never static. He's always on the move. That also counts as working hard, you know? It's not all just running for the sake or running.

Also, it's ridiculous that people are demanding he step up when he played a grand total of two competitive games since returning to the team. Perspective, people. Try getting some.

RedMamba wrote:ozil apologizers and excusers will be the most disappointed if this goes on... he doesnt give a sht, he sulks, he is far from being the best AM in the world right now, more like more entitled AM version of berbatov.

ofcourse he can shut the critics by his effort on the pitch but he doesnt seems bothered! there is no smoke without fire!

You don't start for Mourinho, Wenger and Low (and get called the best number 10 in the world by the former) by "sulking and not giving a sht."

As Hans said, that's just his body language.

I doubt many Arsenal fans can be considered apologists* because it's not a controversial matter to defend him. He's a fantastic player and has been back for two games out of position, he's just held to an impossibly high standard because certain fans don't see what he offers sometimes.

This is how he's played his entire career so I'd be pretty impressed if he made it this far "without fire" having been signed by Real Madrid, Arsenal, being heralded as one of/the best playmaker in the world and won the World Cup.

But clearly, after two games back in which he worked his socks off and created numerous chances (had the most passes in the Everton final third IIRC) he's now running out of excuses.

Gooners.

It's simple. You see the 50m€ price tag and expect him to be a showstopper and have assists and goals and everything.

This is why I have been saying from the day that we signed him that he will be underrrated by Gooners.

I have watched him closely from before he went to Madrid, when I wanted us to sign him. And I really lose it seeing such a trash/biased evaluation of such a good player.

It's quite ridiculous how much that ref wanted us to lose last night. I'm quite surprised he didn't give at least one of those 2 penalty calls (which weren't penalties at all, just for the sake of it) so in the end there he made the right calls. But throughout he couldn't be more biased.

Sanchez and Cazorla ran themselves into the ground last night. And that spirit was fantastic to see. Wilshere played his best so far this season. How good is his sudden bursts of acceleration.

Anyway, I can't even describe that last 10 mins. I was absolutely shitting myself. Especially when Demba Ba almost connected with that cross at the end. I thought that was it.

All in all, we got the result and that was the goal.
So happy days. CL again

GoonerJay29 wrote:No effort on the pitch

Few players work harder than Ozil on a football pitch. Just because he doesn't like getting stuck in and mixing it with defenders doesn't mean he doesn't work hard and anyone who watches him should be able to spot that. If you go back and watch some of the games he played in, for club and country, you'll find that he's one of the few players who's still working hard trying to create towards the end of a game.

He gets played out of position but for somebody who apparently sulks all the time, he sure does not complain about it. He performs his defensive duties when on the flank, and when he's done helping out the defence, he's busting a gut to get up the pitch. When Arsenal have the ball, he is never static. He's always on the move. That also counts as working hard, you know? It's not all just running for the sake or running.

Also, it's ridiculous that people are demanding he step up when he played a grand total of two competitive games since returning to the team. Perspective, people. Try getting some.

Well said Jay!

srigooner wrote:It's simple. You see the 50m€ price tag and expect him to be a showstopper and have assists and goals and everything.

This is why I have been saying from the day that we signed him that he will be underrrated by Gooners.

I have watched him closely from before he went to Madrid, when I wanted us to sign him. And I really lose it seeing such a trash/biased evaluation of such a good player.

Exactly. With that price tag fans want a player dribbling past 10 opponents and score a screamer, then pound his chest and get naked.
But the price tag isn't Özil's fault, and how much is payed for him doesn't change what kind of player he is.
He isn't a player to carry a team. He just isn't. But tehn ideally a good team doesn't need one player carrying them, no matter how much the indiviual transfer fees.
Just forget the money, because who cares about the money really , and appreciate what he brings instead of demanding stuff he'll never bring.

Are people forgetting what killed Fabregas' confidence at Barca?

Playing in random positions that were not his own.

Why Wenger plays Oezil at LM is the same reason why Wenger continues to refuse to play two widemen is wide positions.

It's the same reason Wenger refuses to buy a DM, the same reason Wenger thinks Arteta is a DM, is the same reason Wenger was playing Ramsey RM/LM for about a year.

I don't care how brilliant Wenger is playing Oezil LM is stupid, how long ago was Ramsey putting in SHITE and I mean SHITE performances in his RM stint or have we already forgotten that.

Funny that Ramsey is playing in beast mode now that he is playing in his..... wait for it..... correct position

When Mesut starts playing crap in his actual position then I will criticise him gladly

Stupid is breaking your transfer record on a player and playing him out of position. You don't see Ronaldo at CF now do you, regardless of how many goals he scores so therefore do not expect Oezil to assist everything from that awkward LM role.

Hapless_Hans wrote:
Exactly. With that price tag fans want a player dribbling past 10 opponents and score a screamer, then pound his chest and get naked.
But the price tag isn't Özil's fault, and how much is payed for him doesn't change what kind of player he is.
He isn't a player to carry a team. He just isn't. But tehn ideally a good team doesn't need one player carrying them, no matter how much the indiviual transfer fees.
Just forget the money, because who cares about the money really , and appreciate what he brings instead of demanding stuff he'll never bring.

Actually, one could argue that he does carry the team, in his own way, which is not the flashy 'team carrying' stereotype people want to associate with big money signings. That's why the way in which he does carry the team becomes so underrated and overlooked.

Actually, I am ok with a bit of underrating. If opposing players and managers are gullible enough, like some of the Gooners, to buy into the media fabricated BS about him coasting along on the back of the Ramseys and Cazorlas, it shifts their focus away from him and he can be his creative best

WoW GL calm down guys, so bipolar these days. He either cant do no wrong, carry the team ro completely shit. It's mixed bag performance, I dont blame him but Wenger who managed to make two world class players Mesut & Santi look like toss playing on the left. The difference in term of performance is night and day between those two positions, both players. So until Wenger figure out how to accomodate those two, expect this kind of reaction every other week, if not Mesut then Santi.

julias wrote:Are people forgetting what killed Fabregas' confidence at Barca?

Playing in random positions that were not his own.

Why Wenger plays Oezil at LM is the same reason why Wenger continues to refuse to play two widemen is wide positions.

It's the same reason Wenger refuses to buy a DM, the same reason Wenger thinks Arteta is a DM, is the same reason Wenger was playing Ramsey RM/LM for about a year.

I don't care how brilliant Wenger is playing Oezil LM is stupid, how long ago was Ramsey putting in SHITE and I mean SHITE performances in his RM stint or have we already forgotten that.

Funny that Ramsey is playing in beast mode now that he is playing in his..... wait for it..... correct position

Ramsey and Wilshere were played out of position when they were younger so that they'd be more versatile when they were eventually settled into their natural positions. Wenger has spoken about that numerous times and it makes sense. It's obvious in Ramsey that being tried and tested all over the pitch (he stood in at RB one time) has made him complete in most aspects of his game so it can be argued that it's beneficial for younger players.

And what "killed" Fabregas' confidence at Barcelona was that no matter where Pep or Tito put him, he ruined their system by disrupting the form of the players around him, not being played out of position. They just didn't have room for him. It's the same way we didn't have room for Fabregas as a teenager until we sold Vieira. They would have had to do something similarly drastic and with their team having won everything the season before you can understand why they wouldn't want to change too much.

I'm convinced that the 4-1-4-1 is mostly for Wilshere's benefit. It's pretty much the only system he can play in that'll get the best out of him, because he's got a DM behind him to cover him defensively and allow him to venture forward from CM, and will allow Ramsey to play his best position, too.

I suppose from Wenger's perspective, if he can get Wilshere and Ramsey playing together, and get Cazorla/Ozil performing from a wide role, then that's his best set-up. It's also possible that he feels that with Alexis down the middle, there's a potential issue of him and Ozil trying to occupy the same space.

Still, that brings the obvious problem of playing an AM on the flank where he's not at his best. It'd be more understandable if Ozil was playing on the right hand side, because he can cut inside onto his stronger foot. Playing on the left just restricts him.

Wenger needs to nail down who will play in front of Debuchy ? I dont think Mesut & Santi compliment him well. A pacy guy like Ox & Theo are better since both could hug the line with Debuchy support. Gibbs on the other hand has played countless games with actual AM infront of him, so for me it's battle between Santi & Mesut. Lesser of two evils i suppose.

I feel the team gave up to much for 4141, also Giroud will not like that formation at all when he's back.

Tbh I don't buy that to give them an all rounding story

Wenger himself said Ramsey lacked confidence and had a poor spell for while (all during his RM days) and that he had to tell Ramsey to simplify his game so clearly playing him at RM taught him little

Fabregas only played RM to accommodate the better players at the time and at Barca virtually never played either CM or AM again to accommodate others

Wenger didn't want to move other players so moved the ones who weren't shining as much.

He never did said all rounding with the likes of Henry, Overmars, Ljungberg, Pires blah blah blah

And the way Ramsey plays now is how he has always played it's just now he is getting his chance and is taking it at a high level of quality and in his preferred position

A lot of the time Wenger will fit players in his team in other positions just to get them in the team, which is also why I believe he is now playing this 4-1-4-1 as it fits Ramsey, Wilshere and Oezil in at the same time

Arshavin had this treatment for years and is now a shadow of the player that was tearing teams apart behind the striker

I hope you don't think Barcelona would actually have moved Xavi, Messi or Iniesta to accommodate Fabregas? Like I said, they moved him just about everywhere but there was no way to make it work without the form of another player suffering or taking someone off outright and even then he caused problems for Barcelona's pressing game and defending altogether. It wasn't because of a positional crisis, it was because he didn't fit in that team.

Even in the year or so you claim Ramsey played exclusively at RM, he didn't. He had quite a few chances in the middle and did the year after. It was only last season he started getting the confidence to bomb forward and finish moves off.

And that's what Wenger said, that it adds to their game.

How can you cite Henry after complaining about Wenger playing people out of position when Henry told Wenger that he didn't have what it takes to be a CF and Wenger turned him into one anyway? I wasn't talking about everyone but about a few youngsters he's specifically mentioned using that way.

GoonerJay29 wrote:I'm convinced that the 4-1-4-1 is mostly for Wilshere's benefit. It's pretty much the only system he can play in that'll get the best out of him, because he's got a DM behind him to cover him defensively and allow him to venture forward from CM, and will allow Ramsey to play his best position, too.

I suppose from Wenger's perspective, if he can get Wilshere and Ramsey playing together, and get Cazorla/Ozil performing from a wide role, then that's his best set-up. It's also possible that he feels that with Alexis down the middle, there's a potential issue of him and Ozil trying to occupy the same space.

Still, that brings the obvious problem of playing an AM on the flank where he's not at his best. It'd be more understandable if Ozil was playing on the right hand side, because he can cut inside onto his stronger foot. Playing on the left just restricts him.

I have been thinking about this since last evening - thanks for putting it down so succintly Jay Exact reflection of what I have been pondering over.

And there really is no way out in the short term, is there! From a long term perspective, I know this is very sensible from Arsene. It is the best solution for Jack, Ramsey, Ox, Theo, Chambers (assuming he becomes a DM) and Alexis - who are all young and growing.

Santi showed that he can also slot into the CM role in a 4-1-4-1 with his display last evening. There is never a doubt abot Rosicky's ability to play as a CM or a LM either - those were the days before his injury!

One DM means Arteta/Flamini(/Diaby) can rotate on the short term.

This only really puts pressure on Özil - he has to adapt and grow into role that he hasn't been doing earlier. I guess given the options, Löw would also want Özil to grow into that role.

And I have no doubt in Özil's ability to adapt his game either - he's a bright lad and a team player.

In the short term, though, it means we have to see some eye sore performances and be patient. With the prevalent social networking, media extremism and fanbase fickledom, however, I really feel for how much he's going to be judged till then.

MJ wrote:I hope you don't think Barcelona would actually have moved Xavi, Messi or Iniesta to accommodate Fabregas? Like I said, they moved him just about everywhere but there was no way to make it work without the form of another player suffering or taking someone off outright and even then he caused problems for Barcelona's pressing game and defending altogether. It wasn't because of a positional crisis, it was because he didn't fit in that team.

Even in the year or so you claim Ramsey played exclusively at RM, he didn't. He had quite a few chances in the middle and did the year after. It was only last season he started getting the confidence to bomb forward and finish moves off.

And that's what Wenger said, that it adds to their game.

How can you cite Henry after complaining about Wenger playing people out of position when Henry told Wenger that he didn't have what it takes to be a CF and Wenger turned him into one anyway? I wasn't talking about everyone but about a few youngsters he's specifically mentioned using that way.

Yet has Rakitic now not put Xavi on the bench a month after selling Fabregas?

And Henry was not moved about that is my point, he played CF from the beginning and there he was to stay. He didn't play CF, then LW, then RW then AM.

I still stand by my point if you play someone out of position you cannot then expect them to shine and criticise them when they don't and thus claim they are poor.

Because ironically people were calling Ramsey trash 18 or so months ago, which I have seen not just on forums but in the Emirates when I went to watch games.

That is what the effect can be of playing someone out of position.

julias wrote:
I still stand by my point if you play someone out of position you cannot then expect them to shine and criticise them when they don't and thus claim they are poor.

Because ironically people were calling Ramsey trash 18 or so months ago, which I have seen not just on forums but in the Emirates when I went to watch games.

That is what the effect can be of playing someone out of position.

I agree with you, Julias. But I also feel that for both Arsenal and for Germany, Özil will be played on the wing in the forseeable future. Now the questions are:

1. Can Özil adapt/grow into that role? I believe he can.
2. Will Gooners be patient till then? I believe not. And here lies the issue.

srigooner wrote:

julias wrote:
I still stand by my point if you play someone out of position you cannot then expect them to shine and criticise them when they don't and thus claim they are poor.

Because ironically people were calling Ramsey trash 18 or so months ago, which I have seen not just on forums but in the Emirates when I went to watch games.

That is what the effect can be of playing someone out of position.

I agree with you, Julias. But I also feel that for both Arsenal and for Germany, Özil will be played on the wing in the forseeable future. Now the questions are:

1. Can Özil adapt/grow into that role? I believe he can.
2. Will Gooners be patient till then? I believe not. And here lies the issue.

Lol I agree with both your answers to qs 1 & 2.

Sadly though I think that we won't get the best Oezil can offer

julias wrote:
Yet has Rakitic now not put Xavi on the bench a month after selling Fabregas? That's without considering the fact that Barcelona know Fabregas isn't disciplined enough to play Xavi's position otherwise they would have kept him to succeed him. Everyone knows they tried everything to keep him in the team.

And Henry was not moved about that is my point, he played CF from the beginning and there he was to stay. He didn't play CF, then LW, then RW then AM.

I still stand by my point if you play someone out of position you cannot then expect them to shine and criticise them when they don't and thus claim they are poor.

Because ironically people were calling Ramsey trash 18 or so months ago, which I have seen not just on forums but in the Emirates when I went to watch games.

That is what the effect can be of playing someone out of position.

lol you're going to compare the difficulty of benching a 34-year-old Xavi who nearly decided to go play in the Middle East with Xavi in his prime having led Barcelona and Spain through the golden era of tiki taka?

Henry arrived as a winger, that's my point. Wenger decided he was a CF. Same thing he appears to be doing with Alexis.

I think Özil is best served playing centrally but I understand wanting to get as many quality players into the team for the betterment of our play. In that regard, it's more useful to get the best out of the team rather than one individual. Özil is no stranger to being played out on the left and he'll grow more used to it, although when Theo is back I don't think we'll have to endure it as much. Hopefully not.

@Julias:

I'm going to say: We won't get the best of what Özil has excelled at, but I hope to see a lot of things which he so far hasn't become renowned for.

Btw, I hope you are visiting a lion's share of games at the Emirates this season. Would like to see a lot of wins at home