Champions League Play-Off 2nd Leg - Arsenal 1 - 0 Besiktas: Another year in the group stages

@Julias:

I'm going to say: We won't get the best of what Özil has excelled at, but I hope to see a lot of things which he so far hasn't become renowned for.

Btw, I hope you are visiting a lion's share of games at the Emirates this season. Would like to see a lot of wins at home

GoonerJay29 wrote:I'm convinced that the 4-1-4-1 is mostly for Wilshere's benefit. It's pretty much the only system he can play in that'll get the best out of him, because he's got a DM behind him to cover him defensively and allow him to venture forward from CM, and will allow Ramsey to play his best position, too.

I hope you mean Ramsey play as a b2b CM because he can tackle, intercept, dictate play as well as he can score, create. lets not turn him into another fabregas, Ramsey's defensive game is no slouch!

srigooner wrote:@Julias:

I'm going to say: We won't get the best of what Özil has excelled at, but I hope to see a lot of things which he so far hasn't become renowned for.

Btw, I hope you are visiting a lion's share of games at the Emirates this season. Would like to see a lot of wins at home

like pks

MJ wrote:

julias wrote:
Yet has Rakitic now not put Xavi on the bench a month after selling Fabregas? That's without considering the fact that Barcelona know Fabregas isn't disciplined enough to play Xavi's position otherwise they would have kept him to succeed him. Everyone knows they tried everything to keep him in the team.

And Henry was not moved about that is my point, he played CF from the beginning and there he was to stay. He didn't play CF, then LW, then RW then AM.

I still stand by my point if you play someone out of position you cannot then expect them to shine and criticise them when they don't and thus claim they are poor.

Because ironically people were calling Ramsey trash 18 or so months ago, which I have seen not just on forums but in the Emirates when I went to watch games.

That is what the effect can be of playing someone out of position.

lol you're going to compare the difficulty of benching a 34-year-old Xavi who nearly decided to go play in the Middle East with Xavi in his prime having led Barcelona and Spain through the golden era of tiki taka?

Henry arrived as a winger, that's my point. Wenger decided he was a CF. Same thing he appears to be doing with Alexis.

I think Özil is best served playing centrally but I understand wanting to get as many quality players into the team for the betterment of our play. In that regard, it's more useful to get the best out of the team rather than one individual. Özil is no stranger to being played out on the left and he'll grow more used to it, although when Theo is back I don't think we'll have to endure it as much. Hopefully not.

You laugh so please explain to me the difference and massive decline between 33 and 34 year old Xavi?

Hapless_Hans wrote:
Exactly. With that price tag fans want a player dribbling past 10 opponents and score a screamer, then pound his chest and get naked.
But the price tag isn't Özil's fault, and how much is payed for him doesn't change what kind of player he is.
He isn't a player to carry a team. He just isn't. But tehn ideally a good team doesn't need one player carrying them, no matter how much the indiviual transfer fees.
Just forget the money, because who cares about the money really , and appreciate what he brings instead of demanding stuff he'll never bring.

c'mon, no one wants him to dribble past 10 players, i think 7 is a reasonable no.

man city bought robinho, chelsea bought torres, barca bought fabregas, .... arsenal bought ozil!

calm down guys, shit deals happen, it just takes some getting used to!

I am just assuming that you didn't read the last couple of pages and give you the benefit of doubt here

julias wrote:

You laugh so please explain to me the difference and massive decline between 33 and 34 year old Xavi?

Erm. Xavi was 31 when Fabregas joined. Pretty big difference, three years, when you're in your thirties. And like I said, it was a position Fabregas didn't have the discipline to play anyway so the Rakitic comparison is irrelevant.

srigooner wrote:I am just assuming that you don't read and give you a faceplam here

srigooner wrote:I am just assuming that you didn't read the last couple of pages and give you the benefit of doubt here

well page 3 is filled with a lot of excuses or as they are sometimes known as 'excuzils'.

anyway, what i really think is, ozil is the beast AM in the world, runs his ass off to the ground, extremely creative, transformed arsenal into a winning, was best player for germany in the 2014 wc, penalty killer, touch of an angel, team player, nice bloke, best arsenal player for 13-14(after ramsey) and as someone said 'elevated arsenal in the transfer market to another level'.

yay

julias wrote:

srigooner wrote:

julias wrote:
I still stand by my point if you play someone out of position you cannot then expect them to shine and criticise them when they don't and thus claim they are poor.

Because ironically people were calling Ramsey trash 18 or so months ago, which I have seen not just on forums but in the Emirates when I went to watch games.

That is what the effect can be of playing someone out of position.

I agree with you, Julias. But I also feel that for both Arsenal and for Germany, Özil will be played on the wing in the forseeable future. Now the questions are:

1. Can Özil adapt/grow into that role? I believe he can.
2. Will Gooners be patient till then? I believe not. And here lies the issue.

Lol I agree with both your answers to qs 1 & 2.

Sadly though I think that we won't get the best Oezil can offer

I will actually disagree with 1 and agree with 2.

1. Can Özil adapt/grow into that role? I believe he can.
Özil's biggest asset is not attacking a goal it is his vision of the pitch and being able to see things before others can see them. His biggest asset is his ability to create assists. Like Cesc! Their natural tendency is looking to find someone else to pass the ball to. Not attacking and shooting on goal. Although I like Özil playing on the left more than I do Santi (since Santi does not stay on the left and Özil did), I just do not ever see Özil being what anyone will wnat to see as a left winger. He will not naturally score 15 to 20 goals a year since he is looking to get 20 to 25 assists.


2. Will Gooners be patient till then? I believe not. And here lies the issue.

Like Ramsey as a RW, Özil will never be a traditional LW.

6unner wrote:
I will actually disagree with 1 and agree with 2.

1. Can Özil adapt/grow into that role? I believe he can.
Özil's biggest asset is not attacking a goal it is his vision of the pitch and being able to see things before others can see them. His biggest asset is his ability to create assists. Like Cesc! Their natural tendency is looking to find someone else to pass the ball to. Not attacking and shooting on goal. Although I like Özil playing on the left more than I do Santi (since Santi does not stay on the left and Özil did), I just do not ever see Özil being what anyone will wnat to see as a left winger. He will not naturally score 15 to 20 goals a year since he is looking to get 20 to 25 assists.


2. Will Gooners be patient till then? I believe not. And here lies the issue.

Like Ramsey as a RW, Özil will never be a traditional LW.

To clarify, I didn't say Özil will grow into a world beating left winger. I said he will grow into the creative-left-midfielder-winger-hybrid that Arsene has always used in his systems, unlike the pacy right-inside-forward-winger-hybrif on the other flank. This he can do, and possibly better than Santi did last season, since he will not drift into the middle of the pitch all the time, without sacrificing the creativity that he can bring.

He isn't a dribbler, and he will have issues impacting the game when he has to provide from the left for Alexis/Theo upfront.

That said, if we do switch to 4-2-3-1 for whatever tactical reasons in some games, I want to see him in the middle and not on the wing.

Ozil started his career on the left for Werder Bremen and played there for Germany in the world cup so he should have no problem adapting. Also lets not act like he is the first attacking mid to play wide, Iniesta used to play wide at Barca while Nasri and Silva are all attacking mids who play on the wing for City.

I can't believe the amount of stick the guy gets, all from fans who expect red button miracles all the time. he is hardly a proper pre season so of course he is not going to be at his best. We are a much better team with him then without him, he had an assist yesterday and was involved in Ramsey's goal at Everton. Remember how Ordinary we looked when he got injured last year, He is the best creative outlet in the team ffs

You never see Iniesta play on the right wing, Silva on the left wing and Nasri on the right wing so it's not the same. If you're going to play Özil wide, play him on the right wing so he can cut in and use that beautiful left foot of his. Playing him on the left wing is a stupid thing to do, same with sticking Oxlade-Chamberlain on the right. Tata Martino used to do this crap, sticking Neymar on the right wing, Iniesta on the left, sometimes even Fabregas but he got sacked for doing that crazy shit.

City play with Silva on the left and Nasri on the right, thats how they have line up so far this season. Even last year Silva played the majority of the games on the left, it can work as long as Arsene allows Ozil the freedom to drift inside and play between the lines.

Ozil at LW seems temporary anyways.

One of the most nerve-wrecking games I've ever witnessed. Up there with Udinese second leg in terms of 'really thought we were going out' levels.

A slightly improved performance - thought Wilshere was very promising, whilst Alexis was involved heavily. Ozil on the left is not something I like at all - it was no surprise he was involved in the goal by coming central.

Thought Debuchy and Chamberlain were excellent. Referee was very poor.

Main thing is we are through. Though, Besiktas deserve credit.

MJ, GooneyJay, Sri, Hans - thank you for keeping the past few pages of this thread sane regarding Ozil. Some really good tactical discussion there.

I agree about that at the moment we are making a lot of concessions to fit Wilshere into the squad, because Wenger still sees him as a future star, which I think many of us still believe he can be too.

Part of me thinks as we stand today, Wilshere is really disrupting the dynamic of our entire set up.. In a way, maybe it makes more sense to sell Santi or loan out wilshere, than selling Poldi. As basically we have 4 key players who are all best played when attacking the same areas. Ozil, Santi, Ramsey and Wilshere. How can you possibly fit all 4, or even 3, into the same team and make everybody happy? I dont think its possible.

It is quite a conundrum though, under the Arsenal of old, this really wouldn't be an issue at all.. Santi would be a shoe in for the left attacking midfielder role with more freedom to cut inside like Pires did, made possible by a strong attacking, overlapping left back like Sylvinho, Cole or Clichy. I am not convinced Gibbs is the same breed of left back as we are used to.

We could deploy a narrow diamond, or 41212 if you prefer.. but many fear that would be incompatible with the PL's high tempo and the lack of width it brings.. and they would probably be right. But.. in our case width could still be achieved with Theo and Sanchez up front.

The other hurdle is that we don't really have the midfield for the formation, its ok to have a DLP and a hard tackling CM, ala Gattuso/Pirlo, but we don't have that. However it could work if we had carvalho or someone who can adequately protect the back 4.

--------------- Wol --------------
Debuchy - Kos - Mert - Gibbs
------------- Carvalho -----------
------ Ramsey - Wilshere -----
-------------- Ozil ---------------
--------- Theo - Sanchez -----

Santi would still get plenty of game time as he can come in for Wilshere, and have Ozil play deeper, or for one of the front two and have him drop off.

The wingers of 4141 need to act more "wingers" duty than 4231 or 433. With four occupied in front of sole defensive midfield, it's very easy to get crammed if wingers is specialized in cut in. That's probably the reason Wenger choose Ozil for left wing, he's exclusively left footed. Santi is two footed but more right footed so he's better for 4231 or 433 where he does most of cut in since our right hand side will do stretching work. It's a bit weird formation tbh since Arsenal always play with one pacy winger and one cut in.

Anyways it's all armchair guess work, for all we know, Wenger has no choice but put out that set up for Besiktas game only. Need to see line up for next few games since nothing is set in stone yet.

MJ wrote:

julias wrote:

You laugh so please explain to me the difference and massive decline between 33 and 34 year old Xavi?

Erm. Xavi was 31 when Fabregas joined. Pretty big difference, three years, when you're in your thirties. And like I said, it was a position Fabregas didn't have the discipline to play anyway so the Rakitic comparison is irrelevant.

But I was talking about 33 and 34 year old Xavi not 31 year old when Fabregas joined.

Seeing as Fabregas never displaced Xavi during the 3 or so years he spent there. He was played out of position to keep Xavi, Iniesta in their places, hence hindering his form  from Jan onwards nearly every season.

Fabregas is a born and bred CM, Wenger just highlighted his non Barca like finishing ability and he again is showing that discipline playing CM for Chelsea

So please 33 and 34 year old Xavi the difference?

Irrelevant still since, even though he's a CM, he's nothing like Xavi in his play which is why he was never going to bench him. He doesn't have the discipline to sit back, read the game and distribute possession, Barcelona would know as they'd tried everything to make it work.

He wasn't good enough in any one position to bench Iniesta, Messi or Xavi and rightly so. To get the best out of Fabregas Barcelona would have had to change their system to accommodate him and sell someone.

Congrats on your 1000th post

Julias!