Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

[Hapless_Hans]

Not to beat a dead horse to pulp, and clearly Wenger has deficiencies, but he's in it for the long haul.

I recently summed up transfer spending from the beginingn of the Premier League up to Abramovich's Chesea takeover (i.e. the era before the so called 'sugar daddy clubs', and in that time already, especially around 2000, several PL clubs spent hugely more than Arsenal.

Newcastle, Manchester United, Liverpool net spent 3 times what Arsenal spent over the decade 1993-2003, even pre-Roman Chelsea spent double.

And THEN comes the sugar daddy money, I don't want to know what the difference is in the last decade, with the outside money vs. the stadium restraint.

So sorry, but you're taking it for granted to always finsih 4th as if it is nothing, and then you want more. Fair enough on wanting more but let's be real.
Wenger keeping you in the top of European football clubs, even if let's say at the fringes of top 10, IS NOT NOTHING.
It's *bleep* amazing. That has to be the basis for judging him, and frankly with that  basis in mind many Arsenal fans are way over the top in their disrespect, even if there's ample reason to critisize him for certain things right now, or even to want him to leave.

[urbaNRoots]

Yeah it's amazing for you as an outsider but not for me and many Arsenal fans, that's the loser mentality Wenger is spreading in his players and fans.

[Raptorgunner]

It'a amazing. We all seem to know exactly what Wenger is doing and when. Clearly he's been warming his skinny arse all these years and has no *bleep* clue what he's doing. In fact, that's how he's managed to delude everyone into letting him hang on to his job in the top flight of English football for over a decade, in an era where managers get fired for farting out loud.

Managers get fired everywhere but Arsenal. That's not down to his success but because our club is happy with finishing 4th every year.

Every ambitious club in world sack underpreforming manager, 4th place is no longer expected of Wenger as long as the fans pay the highest ticket prices.

[Hapless_Hans]

How is it a loser mentality?

Damn you guys have been thoroughly bullied by English media and now have Stockholm syndrome.

Using the words and frankly perfidious knife twisting of anti-Arsenal people in the English media, the words of *bleep* José Mourinho who José himself uses as mind games, against Wenger.

People who say Arsenal have a losing mentality in England are mostly the same people who are butthurt about Wenger managing to repeatedly win the league in style and with little resources, and above all a 'foreign' style.

[Sri]

Ok Urbs, you merit a non-sarcastic answer. Let me be equally honest with you.

I don't associate myself with the whole AKB/WOB stuff. As far as I am concerned, the man has his flaws. I have been extremely critical all season of his late substitutions, seemingly poor man/squad management, and at least half a dozen other things that you have mentioned. I doubt there has been one performance this season which I have praised. Nor am I happy with the way things are, or some of the players in the squad.

However, I don't see how this whole WOB stuff is going to solve any problem in the short term. We are stuck with him, for better or for worse. But just because we have not signed anybody in the first week of a January transfer window, I refuse to make statements, or agree to statements suggesting Wenger is just sitting around doing nothing the last six months. The guy might be defensive of his squad, sound pathetic when we lose, etc etc but he sure as hell is not the dumb, ignorant, despotic loser people here make him out to be.

I only want to give the man the credit (and the criticism) that he deserves. Have the last ten years been a pain? Hell yes. Is it completely 100% his fault? No. Stadium debt, Barca DNA, player power, rise of oil money, leg breaks and career ending injuries - heck there have many things which you can't pin on one person, be it Wenger or Gazidis or Kroenke or who the *bleep* ever else.

Nobody is happy with where we are. We all want the club to see better days. I guess every person also has a different means to the same end. And I personally don't see how sacking Wenger in January is going to win us a treble this season.

[Sri]

As Wenger himself put it, you can't go back to sausage once you're used to caviar. That's the problem at the end of it.

We are all so used to caviar that we don't know how difficult it is to get that perfect caviar to the table in the first place. We're so obsessed with the imperfections that we think it is just *bleep* sausage now.

We all want that perfect caviar, no doubt about it. And we want it all day, everyday. We have been starved of it for a good while now.

But lets spare a minute for the millions starving in the underdeveloped world ffs

[Hapless_Hans]

It'a amazing. We all seem to know exactly what Wenger is doing and when. Clearly he's been warming his skinny arse all these years and has no *bleep* clue what he's doing. In fact, that's how he's managed to delude everyone into letting him hang on to his job in the top flight of English football for over a decade, in an era where managers get fired for farting out loud.

Managers get fired everywhere but Arsenal. That's not down to his success but because our club is happy with finishing 4th every year.

Every ambitious club in world sack underpreforming manager, 4th place is no longer expected of Wenger as long as the fans pay the highest ticket prices.

The board decides what constitutes 'underperformance', and apparently they don't share your view that Wenger has been underperforming.
Neither does reasonable estimation of club strength suggest that top 4 but not winning the league is underperforming for Arsenal.

Btw, the board also sets the ticket prices, not Wenger.

[urbaNRoots]

Sri, you say short term but Wenger will be here for 2 more seasons after this one. That's NOT short term for me, the way I see it that's two more years of poverty 4th place fight against the Southamptons and Evertons and there's really nothing I can look forward to right now, not even a beautiful style of play... even that is gone unless we play 17th-20th placed teams AND at home.

I don't care about this season, only the FA Cup - Wenger can play everyone out of position all he wants in the league and CL, we can lose 10-0 for all I care - I'm concerned about next season and the season after that. I don't see how Wenger can do better than after spending 70m, no matter how many signings we make - I don't see us being succeesful under Wenger. I want someone else to give it a try, maybe he won't do better but it'll be something new maybe he'll even do better and that's what we want after all so why not try something new instead of stagnation year after year?

[Raptorgunner]

@Hans

The board is stuck in darkness of mediocrity, how long can they sit there and not see Wenger has lost. Had Wenger bought last year properly(not injured player) we could have won the league, everything is a gamble for Wenger. This year he knows we need a CB and GK, he goes and buys an injured goalie and forgets about CB. He gets paid 8m a year to put every player out of position?

We have disastrous year, Wenger lacks a conscience and dignity.

[urbaNRoots]

@Hans

The board is stuck in darkness of mediocrity, how long can they sit there and not see Wenger has lost. Had Wenger bought last year properly(not injured player) we could have won the league, everything is a gamble for Wenger. This year he knows we need a CB and GK, he goes and buys an injured goalie and forgets about CB. He gets paid 8m a year to put every player out of position?

We have disastrous year, Wenger lacks a conscience and dignity.

Don't feed the troll.

[Hapless_Hans]

ffs I'm not trolling

I'm dead serious. How is any of what I said trolling.

It's like night is day. If I came here and posted "haha Wenger what a loser" I would be less of a troll or what

[urbaNRoots]

How about you don't interfere in every discussion we Arsenal fans have in an ARSENAL SECTION where nobody asked your opinion? Or better yet contribute here without your little jabs here and there, that would be really great.

[Hapless_Hans]

I mean seriously, "Wenger lacks conscience and dignity", wtf is going on with you. Unlike who? Mourinho? LvG? Conscience? Dignity? Smh

Have you ever seen anyone bossing a shoving contest on the touchline in a more dignified way?

[Hapless_Hans]

How about you don't interfere in every discussion we Arsenal fans have in an ARSENAL SECTION where nobody asked your opinion? Or better yet contribute here without your little jabs here and there, that would be really great.

right. my apologies.

[Sri]

Sri, you say short term but Wenger will be here for 2 more seasons after this one. That's NOT short term for me, the way I see it that's two more years of poverty 4th place fight against the Southamptons and Evertons and there's really nothing I can look forward to right now, not even a beautiful style of play... even that is gone unless we play 17th-20th placed teams AND at home.

I don't care about this season, only the FA Cup - Wenger can play everyone out of position all he wants in the league and CL, we can lose 10-0 for all I care - I'm concerned about next season and the season after that. I don't see how Wenger can do better than after spending 70m, no matter how many signings we make - I don't see us being succeesful under Wenger. I want someone else to give it a try, maybe he won't do better but it'll be something new maybe he'll even do better and that's what we want after all so why not try something new instead of stagnation year after year?

I am only referring to this season by short term. If we have been shit at the end of the season, then by all means we should look for an alternative. I am just against the name calling and blame games mid season.

It may sound apologistic, but you can't deny how badly injuries have hurt us this season. If we had Arteta, Ramsey, Koscielny, Theo and Özil fit, we would probably be at least 10 points higher.

I hold Wenger responsible for going into the season with 2 CBs, even though Tim Stillman makes a case for Wenger in his column over at arseblog ('Window Shopping' iirc).
I hold Wenger responsible for experimenting with a new formation when we had a good foundation from last season, more so in the light of the shortened preseason this year.
I hold Wenger responsible for gambling on a 33 year old Arteta as the first choice DM.
I hold Wenger responsible for the late substitutions and poor man management.

I don't hold him responsible for ticket prices (I always find it a bit funny when fans not living in London, not holding season tickets, and not attending even one game a season complain about this). I don't hold him responsible for the injuries themselves.

Like I said, for me, it is credit and criticism where it is due.

The man has his flaws. He has ever so often been blamed for being a stingy paedophile - thank you media. Yet, he's signed the likes of prime Cazorla, Özil and Alexis. And now they think he will sign Isco for 70m€ and Cavani for 60m€.

When everyone was screaming for SAF to sign a midfielder, he signed RVP and won the title by a mile. Some gambles like that come off. Wenger managed to get 2 injury free seasons with Giroud as the only real CF, one of which ended with a FA Cup. Other gambles, like Silvestre or Squillacci don't come off.

The bottomline remains that without a doubt, Wenger is (at least one of) the most scrutinized and criticised manager in all the European leagues. It's a bit of shame really, but the man does his fair share to contribute to the criticism.

[AnJl]

That was really shitty and unnecessary of you to say that to Hans, Urban.

[AnJl]

And Hans, I have just one question to ask.

For all what you have said in the past few posts, would you be saying the same thing if this were Bayern?

Okay, two.

Do you think the Bayern board/fans would condone this?

Leave aside the first 7 years, but consider only the last three when answering the questions.

Needless to say, keep in mind all of Wenger's shortcomings.

[Raptorgunner]

How about you don't interfere in every discussion we Arsenal fans have in an ARSENAL SECTION where nobody asked your opinion? Or better yet contribute here without your little jabs here and there, that would be really great.

right. my apologies.

Hans you are Welcomed here, dont have to apologies.

[Jay29]

Given how urgently we need a defender, I'd have thought we would have something lined up already. Things don't always go to plan like that, but I like to think it's at the forefront of the club's priorities. It helps me sleep at night.

Reckon we should bid £200,000,001 for Messi for shits and giggles.

[urbaNRoots]

@sri I don't pretend to know what the source of our injuries is but what I know is that we have the best football pitch in Europe, one of the best training facilities, we have changed the personnel of our medical department several times over the years and according to players and Wenger himself some of the most qualified doctors, footballers have been sold and bought - our injuries have remained the same - the only constant is Wenger and his training sessions which we have no access to. So it is unsurprising that people blame Wenger for that too. It is not luck so don't go there, there's a reason why we are top of injury table every year.

And even then, he KNEW we would have lots of injuries because it happens every year yet didn't add to the squad accordingly ONCE AGAIN despite having the resources to do so. We already know that this mismanagement has happened before, it is not the first time which is why I can't see things getting better.

[Sri]

Given how urgently we need a defender, I'd have thought we would have something lined up already. Things don't always go to plan like that, but I like to think it's at the forefront of the club's priorities. It helps me sleep at night.

Reckon we should bid £200,000,001 for Messi for shits and giggles.

With Debuchy and Koscielny fit again and a game every week, it does give us time to wait for the best possible deal before the window ends. I feel confident that we have a list of options and hope one of them materializes.

If we don't sign anyone, atleast on loan, till the end of January, I will be really bothered. As things stand, we can afford some patience.

[Jay29]

I'd agree if Koscielny didn't have that Achilles issue. It's been a known issue since the start of the season, yet the club continues to play with fire.

[Sri]

@sri I don't pretend to know what the source of our injuries is but what I know is that we have the best football pitch in Europe, one of the best training facilities, we have changed the personnel of our medical department several times over the years and according to players and Wenger himself some of the most qualified doctors, footballers have been sold and bought - our injuries have remained the same - the only constant is Wenger and his training sessions which we have no access to. So it is unsurprising that people blame Wenger for that too. It is not luck so don't go there, there's a reason why we are top of injury table every year.

And even then, he KNEW we would have lots of injuries because it happens every year yet didn't add to the squad accordingly ONCE AGAIN despite having the resources to do so. We already know that this mismanagement has happened before, it is not the first time which is why I can't see things getting better.

I agree completely with you on the injuries. There is an element of tough luck involved, but it is an alibi if we are comfortable in putting all the blame on factors beyond us. I also agree that we haven't been able to fix it. I am hopeful of better results with Forsythe and his team involved, but rationally speaking, that is a longer project and not a immediate fix. There have been many brilliant analyses of the 'muscular injuries' and the management has also admitted to looking 'internally' for solutions.

Reflectively, it is not entirely impossible to think that if Giroud hadn't become injured, we might have signed a defensive backup instead of focussing on Welbeck on deadline day.

However, we did have two months prior to that, with everyone saying we were working on multiple targets after Debuchy and Alexis, and we were inefficient in pushing any of those targets through the line. It is not that we have a poor scouting team or that we are blissfully unaware or problems in the squad or that we are ignorant of positions which need addressing.

I guess we get stuck at the decision of signing a player immediately to fix a problem vs waiting for a better player as a long term option, which may or may not happen. And when we do have a target, we sometimes lack the ruthless efficiency required to push a deal through - which is often, and rather harshly, blamed on 'Wenger penny pinching'.

Btw, let's not forget that the 40m + 1 idea was proposed by the agent of the player in question - something which also was pinned on Wenger.

(Again, I know I sound like I am making excuses for Wenger, it most certainly is not my intention. I am only trying to be rational to the best of my cognitive capacity).

[Hapless_Hans]

And Hans, I have just one question to ask.

For all what you have said in the past few posts, would you be saying the same thing if this were Bayern?

Don't know if there's a straight away answer, as it is really not comparable.

We are the biggest club in the league by a sizeable distance, so not winning the league IS considered underperforming for us. Fans and board accept it under certain conditions though.
That's not comparable with Arsenal, the financial success of the PL, the huge investments of outside owners, etc..

Let's say if I was a Arsenal fan I would have the same troubles as you of course. It's *bleep* tricky.
Fans live to a large degree by immediate affect, and Wenger is a manager who is, by method and by attitude, very often dissapointing short term affects.
That is clearly a downside of the way he is. Because the short term is important too, but wenger neglects it.
Maybe that's also the reason that he's not an intense, big game manager nowadays

In fact I've been in discussions like this one on the very other side, on another forum with the most ardent AKB you could imagine. No criticism of Wenger allowed whatsoever.
In fact I registered and started becoming a poster at all (in that forum) last year in summer because I couldn't for the life of me understand why Wenger would not buy Luis Gustavo
(btw that forum was so devastated by the fights with that one AKB, among other things, that the other Arsenal posters left to here and I followed them; they didn't stay but I did, so that's why I'm now a scourge on here)
So it's not like I don't understand, and even feel sometimes if I watch Arsenal lol, the frustration, but taking a look at with just how much less resources Wenger operated all those years made me remind myself of the undeniable importance of the long term aspect.

Do you think the Bayern board/fans would condone this?

Leave aside the first 7 years, but consider only the last three when answering the questions.

Needless to say, keep in mind all of Wenger's shortcomings.

I don't know if you can just 'leave aside' the first 7 years. It's not a coincidence Wenger started spending 'big' on players only last year, it's in tune with what the club said about long term planning.

Wenger used to make up for this by superb talent spotting and coaching, it feels like he isn't quite up to that anymore, which is kind of tragic since now would be the time to start attacking the top again.

So now his shortcomings are taking over, and I understand all the frustration and criticism.
I'd just argue that he's been there 20 years, he's done invaluably more for the club than lose or win derbies. And with a spending deficit like that, it frankly takes more time than 2 windows.

I know that tactics etc are a different thing and have been stinking.
Maybe he should've left in summer, but he'll stay another 2 years.
I just don't think he deserves it, and neither do I think it will be better for the club's success, if fans raise a huge stink now because they can't bear his usual shortcomings any longer, he leaves in turmoil and bad feelings.

Maybe fans should see it as an exercise in patience, with the end visible. It's much to ask, but then again the fewest of you would probably be supporting Arsenal right now if it weren't Wenger's Arsenal.
I guess that's the main point, Arsenal fans should always be proud of Wenger, he is NOT embarrassing or a loser, on the contrary, even if you justifiably want him out now

[urbaNRoots]

That was really shitty and unnecessary of you to say that to Hans, Urban.

LMAO calma, Hans is just a little bored... Bayerm have won the league already, BVB are so shit making jokes about them is not fun anymore, it's midseason break in Bundesliga so he has to come here and other sections to have a little troll here and there. Don't worry about Hans, man has trolling impunity in this forum.

You say it was unnecessary but now he "understands our frustration" instead of acting all smug about PL fans only wanting to buy players

[Hapless_Hans]

*bleep* off urban, I' pouring my heart out here and you call it trolling

I sadi that in response to raptor's "still no money spent", which is just a little silly IMHUMBLEO

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