CL QF: Porto - FC Bayern

VivaStPauli wrote:

free_cat wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:Really is ridiculous, Bayern were doing fine when Robben was injured - as long as the coach was Heynckes. Sure, they ended up winning the UCL when he came back, and Robben really might be their best player, but they had tons of excellent matches against top opposition with Müller on the right, and Robben on the bench.

Bayern historically struggle, just like post-Ballack Germany, when Schweinsteiger is missing.

Bayern is missing half their team, and the other half makes idiotic mistakes... it's normal that they struggle and really not Pep's fault that Alonso or Dante half dumb.

While that is true, I was mostly disagreeing with the guy that said Robben for Bayern is more critical than Messi for Barca, which is false.

And even though Bayern have a lot of injuries right now, the players that started all might have started anyway due to rotation.

Sure, Ribéry and Robben are the first choice, but is Götze and Müller really that horrible? Pep has to take at least some blame, because of if a couple of world class players suddenly all decide to suck at the same time, I look at the coach.

gotta love Pep fanboys .

apparently he's blameless for what could be bayern's second consecutive failure in the CL , but when it comes to achievements that had nothing to do with him like Germany winning the world cup , they shamelessly give him credit for it .

To be fair, a major part of Pep's positional play is to have players who are strong on 1 vs 1's. At Barca he had Iniesta and Messi and at Bayern he has Robben and Ribery.

Now without those two Bayern have to play more horizontally, shifting the ball from side to side much more then usually to find openings.

Goetze and Muller are pretty average at going past defenders in tight spaces, compared to Robben and Ribery.

Even then the goals came from individual mistakes by Dante, Boateng, and Alonso who aren't exactly brilliant under pressure

doesn't that give more credence to the age old claim that Pep doesn't have a plan B tho ?

even the decimated bayern that played on Wednesday was still better than Porto on Paper and should've gotten a better result.

Injuries are one thing and it's true that the team left is just not that strong,

But still, we should not be playing that bad, period.

There's no doubt Pep has to take the blame for this.

He has.

'The reaction is on me, I was disappointed,' he told reporters in the wake of a shock Champions League quarter-final defeat by Porto. 'It was nothing to do with the doctor.

'I've been informed of the doctor's decision and I fully respect it. Nothing happened between us, it was his decision. Injuries are part and parcel of football, they're not the medical staff's fault.'

Guardiola said: 'The responsibility for the defeat in Porto lies with me.'

BarrileteCosmico wrote:He has.

Exactly. Not really controversial stuff.

He takes blame now similar to how he wants to have 1000 Dantes and believes every player at Bayern is super super super good and the best. Pep's world is all sugary and sweet. Cringe!

Yesh!

So giddy over this one. I won't give the whole blame to Pep here as he was missing half a team basically.

Casciavit wrote:To be fair, a major part of Pep's positional play is to have players who are strong on 1 vs 1's. At Barca he had Iniesta and Messi and at Bayern he has Robben and Ribery.

That's not having a tactic, though, that's just playing Risk with cheat dice that always roll 6's.
A proper coach tries to instill tactical superiority. Winning 1on1s is of course something that has to happen at some point, in order to win, but if you plan on it as a corner stone of your tactic, you're doing it wrong, imho.




Also technically RWO experienced shit doctors, not scientific medicine being shit.

VivaStPauli wrote:

free_cat wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:Really is ridiculous, Bayern were doing fine when Robben was injured - as long as the coach was Heynckes. Sure, they ended up winning the UCL when he came back, and Robben really might be their best player, but they had tons of excellent matches against top opposition with Müller on the right, and Robben on the bench.

Bayern historically struggle, just like post-Ballack Germany, when Schweinsteiger is missing.

Bayern is missing half their team, and the other half makes idiotic mistakes... it's normal that they struggle and really not Pep's fault that Alonso or Dante half dumb.

While that is true, I was mostly disagreeing with the guy that said Robben for Bayern is more critical than Messi for Barca, which is false.

And even though Bayern have a lot of injuries right now, the players that started all might have started anyway due to rotation.

Sure, Ribéry and Robben are the first choice, but is Götze and Müller really that horrible? Pep has to take at least some blame, because of if a couple of world class players suddenly all decide to suck at the same time, I look at the coach.

Okay this is in response to your earlier post. Our main key match in Pokal was against Dortmund, a match Robben single handedly won us. For all other matches in the Quarters, Semis & Final of CHL Robben was our MOM. It is difficult to ascertain if we would won without him.

Now Schweni is IMO our most secondary player and was completely overshadowed by Javi in the CHL Final. Javi was also a lot better than Schweni in most matches. This is despite the fact that Schweni as a person, I like the most in Bayern. I also thought Kroos did most of Schweni's work dropping down.

Now as per as the Muller vs Robben debate on RW goes, I personally maintain Muller is a ST playing RW and he has been consistently poor as a RW on almost every game I have seen. He does have the technical skills, dribbling skill, ability to create space and carve out a defense and his link-up play/vision although quite good are not on the level of elite wingers like Neymar, Hazard, Robben.

But Muller substitutes that with grit, team-work and fantastic end product. He IMO is one of our best big game players @ Bayern. So when he scores a lot of goals, that masks those poor games. But I think we could have won the BL with even Shaqiri @ RW as the entire team was doing brilliant, Bayern basically streamroll the BL. You have to admit our RW was largely dead in most matches and that highlighted Ribery even more.

Now if you trace it to now, all teams are much more stronger. I don't see Jupp having a major chance with this team. Barca have Neymar/Messi/Suarez, Real's whole team is stacked. It is much more difficult.

You know these things are difficult to say. Robben was even more injured under Jupp, he was under severe attack from the German Idea, he did not have the faith of Jupp and was often left out due to political/nationality based reasons and not performance based. I remember once Robben came back from injury and had MOM based performances and goals/assists, was tracking back and co-incidentally Muller had a 1000 min odd no goals streak and still Muller played because Jupp was highly influenced by Bild's proxy war.

Robben now has the confidence of the coach. You saw how great he was under LVG. Robben is largely unstoppable when he has a coach backing him. He has progressed, the team is injured and regressed, new players bar thiago are not World Class which makes today our current stage very much dependent on Robben

VivaStPauli wrote:

Casciavit wrote:To be fair, a major part of Pep's positional play is to have players who are strong on 1 vs 1's. At Barca he had Iniesta and Messi and at Bayern he has Robben and Ribery.

That's not having a tactic, though, that's just playing Risk with cheat dice that always roll 6's.
A proper coach tries to instill tactical superiority. Winning 1on1s is of course something that has to happen at some point, in order to win, but if you plan on it as a corner stone of your tactic, you're doing it wrong, imho.




Also technically RWO experienced shit doctors, not scientific medicine being shit.

I think the team is shit then. Some in a team must have the ability to outpace, outskill opponents, to dribble past opponents, to carve out space, to score magical goals from long distance. You can't win the CHL without it.

You can get back to Winning the BL & Quarters in CHL like Bayern was for 1 Decade and back to European Irrelevancy. Against top CHL teams, you need special/magical players upfront. You can't play the Stoke City tactic. Even Jupp needed Robbery in the wings to carve open tough defenses in CHL Final Stages

Mr Nick09 wrote:In this era it's near impossible to have success in CL without dominant wide players, so it's only normal they struggle without their primary wingers.

But still, Lewandowski, Gotze, Muller, still looks like an elite attacking trio, in any other team they would be celebrated.

Bayern lost because they got pressed into making mistake. They should have done much better.

See these are fantastic players but there are inherent problems. Lewa is terrific in footballing ability but is no a deadly scorer like Aguero. He is IMO a Benzema type player.

You have Muller who is fantastic in end product, has heart, grit and can score but lacks the technical ability.

You have Goetze who has skill, vision and the X factor, perhaps not the speed, but has no desire. I don't think there is any cure for Goetze. Even during the WC he was not that good. He can score 2-3 good goals but I think 10M Salary @ 20 has got to his head. He has been tried @ every position from LW to RW to CAM to False 9 and I don't see any heart in him.

It's difficult to win like this. Thiago is doing Goetze's job upfront. I don't think Bayern even need Robben to win against Porto. Just having Javi the bull Martinez in the centre, Lahm @ RB and Alaba/Ribery at LB/LW would have been enough. Hell even Ribery could have laid a couple of good balls for Lewa to score, we atleast needed him. I think against only Barca/Real kind of teams we need Robben, otherwise the team should manage.

The best part of Bayern winning CHL was Alaba/Ribery @ LB/LW & Robben/Lahm @ RW/LB. 3 of them are injured and the other is playing as CM and is mediocre in it. Bayern were known for having a dangerous wing play. Not even 1 side of the famed wing play is left. And to expect the team to evolve that much to have the best central midfield with a very slow Bastian/Alonso is too much to expect IMO

farfan wrote:doesn't that give more credence to the age old claim that Pep doesn't have a plan B tho ?

even the decimated bayern that played on Wednesday was still better than Porto  on Paper and should've gotten a better result.

Well what's your definition of a 'plan b'?

IMO Pep is more pragmatic then given credit for tbh. He's generally referred to as an idealist who won't change his ways, but at Bayern he has tinkered and made changes that you wouldn't normally expect him to make.

I do agree with you though. Bayern should have done better.

VivaStPauli wrote:

Casciavit wrote:To be fair, a major part of Pep's positional play is to have players who are strong on 1 vs 1's. At Barca he had Iniesta and Messi and at Bayern he has Robben and Ribery.

That's not having a tactic, though, that's just playing Risk with cheat dice that always roll 6's.
A proper coach tries to instill tactical superiority. Winning 1on1s is of course something that has to happen at some point, in order to win, but if you plan on it as a corner stone of your tactic, you're doing it wrong, imho.




Also technically RWO experienced shit doctors, not scientific medicine being shit.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Every coach tries to get his best players in 1vs1 / 2vs2 situations. That's actually one of the most advantageous situations in football. Why shouldn't Pep target it as often as possible?

Pep's system is all about gaining superiority across the pitch. It literally starts with the GK by building up from the back. Why does Pep split his CB's and have a DM drop deep? It's so it creates a 3vs2 against the opposition's strikers.

In general he tries to gain superiority in different ways. Whether it's through overloads, positioning, or making sure his best player is in the most advantageous situations.

To sum up his style as best as I can:

Overload an area of the pitch to try and get the ball to the free man. The free man is usually your best player and you want him to have more space to cause havoc. At Bayern that's Robben's role and at Barca it was Messi's. You want your best player in between the lines (space behind midfield, in front of defense).

Now what happens when the players who are overloading that area aren't your starters and the free man is Goetze? Bayern have to focus on gaining positional superiority a lot more. Which means players have to play at different heights and angles to try and open up more passing lanes. And the longer the pass the more likely you are to lose the ball and allow the opponent to counter attack. It also means they have to spread the ball horizontally much more. And like I mentioned earlier they aren't Bayern's starters so they're slower in adjusting their positioning.

To play positional play at the highest level, you need players who are in top form technically and physically. And we all saw what happened when you combined the two, we witnessed arguably the greatest team of all time.

In Pep's book which was written at the end of last season, he said his ideal midfield was Lahm, Thiago, and Goetze. I don't think we've seen Pep's ideal team yet, which IMO is:

It's a shame because a team like that would play amazing football.

So Ribery will likely not be fit to play.

I just hope Alonso doesn't start tbh.

I'd rather go out of CL with Gaudino and Rode.

But since Alonso was rested on the weekend, he'll have the chance to misplace a few more passes and gift Porto some more balls.

Alonso the Liverpool legend sabotaging Bayern's chances of winning more CL's than Liverpool

Always impressed how pool fans bring up their lowly club in discussion that arent about them

Fa cup thread is over there, oh wait...

It's not Alonso's fault tbh. I wouldn't expect him to excuse himself from playing just because he's bad now.
He was great in autumn.

Pep messed the thing up because instead of treating Alonso as the short time Schweini replacement he was, he continued to start him alongside Schweini after the latter was back, repeatedly, without realizing how little that made sense.

How do u tell Alonso who was great all season that he is done and he needs to sit down? That was also the problem in madrid. He is so damn good at most of what he does that u cant imagine ur team without him. But when he fails u, its quantified in losses vs bigteams and in CL

it could get worse .

Pep could sign Khedira and Bayern will be getting that good ol pivot of Alonso-Khedira .

Alonso was finished in 11/12 already. I remember Mourinho running him to the ground that season. 1 season later Götze did the job on him in the CL. Can't believe he's still starting big games in 2015 for a club like Bayern.

Xabi was great for us last year.

Because Di Maria was doing his running for him and Modric to a lesser extent

Good luck finding anyone on this Bayern team doing that.

Mr Nick09 wrote:How do u tell Alonso who was great all season that he is done and he needs to sit down? That was also the problem in madrid. He is so damn good at most of what he does that u cant imagine ur team without him. But when he fails u, its quantified in losses vs bigteams and in CL

It's the job of a manager to make those decisions and be authoritative about it.
And I'm not claiming one (let alone me) could have known beforehand, but the record is just so clear.
But Alonso was signed when it became clear on top of Martinez knee injury Schweinsteiger would be missing for months.

Alonso and Schweini together, we play terrible repeatedly.
Everytime Schweini played FOR Alonso (helped along as Alonso was banned both in league and the Shakhtar return leg), we suddenly are much more fluid and score lots of goals.
After that Pep fields them both again. He's been making a mess of his lineups tbh.

Valkyrja wrote:Xabi was great for us last year.

That's not even true. He just somehow turned into prime Rijkaard against Bayern and that's it.

Credit for Ancelotti for making that midfield work when no one thought it would, though. Although if you look at how Madrid play now with and without Modric I'd say this indicates he was far more important than Alonso for stability