Has Hazard peaked?

Harmonica wrote:

jibers wrote:

Harmonica wrote:
Football players are not famous for their logic.

What happens after the you beat player with a dribble is irrelevant. When you beat a player, you always advance game with a player, and there's always one less opponent between the ball and the goal. That's just mathematical fact. What happens after that depends on multiple things, not only your individual quality.

Dribbling doesn't always advance play. If you are in a culdesac and you dribble backwards you don't advance play at all. Dribbling is useful if you have an end product. Key passes stat is irrelevant. Busquets had a key pass in that goal that Messi scored vs Real Madrid in semis in 2011

I do think Hazard plays better as a #10 but the way Chelseas attack is structured, he will never be better than he is. He needs better players around him.

Three times da charm?

It does by today's standards, because dribble isn't a dribble if it's not on attacking direction (OPTA).

I don't give a damn about OPTA

If you beat a man when teammates are in a better position that is poor decision making. Hazard dribbles into corners a lot of the time. Meaningless. Still forward. Iniesta dribbles into corners and then can turn out, sideways which is more effective than Hazard and is not forward...

Maybe instead of worrying about other peoples' reading ability you should focus on your own. I never specified a dribbling direction only attempted to provide context for you as to why dribbling in and of itself is not an indication of a great player.

Curtinho wrote:Maybe instead of worrying about other peoples' reading ability you should focus on your own. I never specified a dribbling direction only attempted to provide context for you as to why dribbling in and of itself is not an indication of a great player.

It's you first who differed from the context which I laid, as I said Hazard is 2nd best dribbler after Messi in last 7 seasons, by Opta statistics. And they only count a dribble, as players beaten on attacking direction.

What the hell is opta

Harmonica wrote:

Curtinho wrote:Maybe instead of worrying about other peoples' reading ability you should focus on your own. I never specified a dribbling direction only attempted to provide context for you as to why dribbling in and of itself is not an indication of a great player.

It's you first who differed from the context which I laid, as I said Hazard is 2nd best dribbler after Messi in last 7 seasons, by Opta statistics.

You didn't lay any context. You said a dribble is ALWAYS a positive, regardless of context, and that's a very misguided and limited way to think about football.

It's an example of why your whole way of looking at football merely through stats is misguided and limited.

Classic case of failing to see the forest for the trees.

But we've been at this point before, I'm not expecting you to understand this.

Valkyrja wrote:What the hell is opta

Can't believe you haven't heard of opta.

Harmonica wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Curtinho wrote:
Dribbling can be great in the right circumstances, but if you're just dribbling because you can it often disrupts the flow of a counter-attack, or if you have good movement among other players on your team it makes runs go to waste, and often enough gives the opposition time to set up properly to defend.
.

Exactly. Of course, taken without context, beating a man is better than not beating a man, 10>9.
But you describe exactly why sometimes dribbles do NOT advance your team's position, and I have the feeling Hazard is a specialist in such dribbling that have a detrimental aspect to it.

omg 4th time da charm?

A dribble isn't a dribble in todays standards (Opta), if it isn't on attacking direction.

Casual fans thought they found da loophole and gangbanged in at the same time.

I did, but looks like your mathematical mind shut down.

Let's look at a concrete example.
Let's say France plays Italy.

Suppose italy counter attacks with some players, and Pirlo,
a good but slow dribler carries the ball and France
has Matuidi and some defenders in front of Pirlo. Let's say
that Pirlo gone nuts, and instead of passing, dribles Matuidi,
but by dribling slow, it allows let's say Pogba who is in the
neighberhood but behind pirlo, running down from attack to defense to regroup.
So Pirlo dribled Matuidi, but now Pogba is in now in front of Pirlo.
So, we have the same number of players between Pirlo and the opponent goal.

So your mathematical hypothesis fails miserably

Ion Creanga wrote:

Harmonica wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:


Exactly. Of course, taken without context, beating a man is better than not beating a man, 10>9.
But you describe exactly why sometimes dribbles do NOT advance your team's position, and I have the feeling Hazard is a specialist in such dribbling that have a detrimental aspect to it.

omg 4th time da charm?

A dribble isn't a dribble in todays standards (Opta), if it isn't on attacking direction.

Casual fans thought they found da loophole and gangbanged in at the same time.

I did, but looks like your mathematical mind shut down.

Let's look at a concrete example.
Let's say France plays Italy.

Suppose italy counter attacks with some players, and Pirlo,
a good but slow dribler carries the ball and France
has Matuidi and some defenders in front of Pirlo. Let's say
that Pirlo gone nuts, and instead of passing, dribles Matuidi,
but by dribling slow, it allows let's say Pogba who is in the
neighberhood but behind pirlo, running down from attack to defense to regroup.
So Pirlo dribled Matuidi, but now Pogba is in now in front of Pirlo.
So, we have the same number of players between Pirlo and the opponent goal.

So your mathematical hypothesis fails miserably

A dribble (today's standard as beating a player in attacking direction) happens in an instance, you don't have players running 10 meters in an instance. Holding a ball and running with isn't a dribble, by Opta standards, only when you beat a player, a dribble happens. What language would you like to get that, so that you would understand it?

Hazard is especialist in dribling towards nowhere though. Someone posted a video of his highlights and it was shocking how many times he dribled 3 or 4 players to end up in the corner and do nothing. His problem is that he dribles with his head down, unlike Messi, Ozil, Mahrez...

Harmonica wrote:

Ion Creanga wrote:

Harmonica wrote:
omg 4th time da charm?

A dribble isn't a dribble in todays standards (Opta), if it isn't on attacking direction.

Casual fans thought they found da loophole and gangbanged in at the same time.

I did, but looks like your mathematical mind shut down.

Let's look at a concrete example.
Let's say France plays Italy.

Suppose italy counter attacks with some players, and Pirlo,
a good but slow dribler carries the ball and France
has Matuidi and some defenders in front of Pirlo. Let's say
that Pirlo gone nuts, and instead of passing, dribles Matuidi,
but by dribling slow, it allows let's say Pogba who is in the
neighberhood but behind pirlo, running down from attack to defense to regroup.
So Pirlo dribled Matuidi, but now Pogba is in now in front of Pirlo.
So, we have the same number of players between Pirlo and the opponent goal.

So your mathematical hypothesis fails miserably

A dribble (today's standard as beating a player in attacking direction) happens in an instance, you don't have players running 10 meters in an instance. Holding a ball and running with isn't a dribble, by Opta standards, only when you beat a player, a dribble happens. What language would you like to get that, so that you would understand it?

lol, i'm done with it, your definition of dribbling has more variables then Riemman integration definition

free_cat wrote:Hazard is especialist in dribling towards nowhere though. Someone posted a video of his highlights and it was shocking how many times he dribled 3 or 4 players to end up in the corner and do nothing. His problem is that he dribles with his head down, unlike Messi, Ozil, Mahrez...

Hazard has 2nd most dribbles after Messi the last 7 seasons, and they have led to 2nd most chance's created after Özil, the last 7 seasons.

The previous seasons, yes, but he clearly has declined this season. No amount of dribbling stats will change that fact.

But it's hard to know that when the whole team and organization is performing so bad. Dribbling statistics kind of prove that he hasn't declined that much. I think he's just fatigued mentally after this season and physically playing so many games the last 7 years.

Harmonica wrote:But it's hard to know that when the whole team and organization is performing so bad. Dribbling statistics kind of prove that he hasn't declined that much. I think he's just fatigued mentally after this season and physically playing so many games the last 7 years.

Coming back after every summer fat doesn't help either...

Harmonica wrote:But it's hard to know that when the whole team and organization is performing so bad.

Going by that logic players like Nathan Redmond (Norwich), Jeremain Lens (Sunderland), James Morrison (West Brom) and Matt Richie (Bournemouth) are just as good as Hazard. They play his position and have matched or bettered Hazard's scoring + assisting stats this season while playing for clubs that have been performing at the same level as Chelsea.

Is it not possible to -25% Harmonica for such blatant trolling and for spouting such stupidity on this dear forum?

Dribbling always advances the play. Always. It's a mathematical fahct.

Don't even know what that means. Bar none might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on Goal Legacy or any previous iterations of GL.

EDIT: To stay on topic: As for Hazard, he is what he is. A talented player who will never reach his full potential, who has the ability to shine in games but more often than not disappears for the large part of games. A NT/big game flop (for the most part) who ghosts through most big games. I don't know if he's peaked, and I don't know if he'll reach his potential, I just know that this is who he is and it's time we start accepting him for the player he is.

CBarca wrote:Is it not possible to -25% Harmonica for such blatant trolling and for spouting such stupidity on this dear forum?

No. He's not breaking any rules, and he's not trolling either.

It's his conviction, due to his cognitive limitation to only comprehend the world through one-dimensional logic deriving from statistical data.
There's something beautiful about this kind of uncompromising, methodical, incisive narrow-mindedness tbh.
A beautiful mind

He's just having a bad season. That being said, as great as a player could be he needs to play in a very good team. Put Hazard in Barcelona or RM or Arsenal and his performances would be much much better.

LeBéninois wrote:He's just having a bad season. That being said, as great as a player could be he needs to play in a very good team. Put Hazard in Barcelona or RM or Arsenal and his performances would be much much better.

Either that or maybe he wouldn't get into the team

There's nothing wrong with Chelsea as a team. He's not performing period. They have enough good players and just won the league.

Also nothing wrong with being statistically driven but when you refuse to complement that base with outside factors it becomes too narrow. Statistics can tell you a lot of things you will miss just watching the ball or the game, things that 99% of people don't pay attention to.

Why should Barca, RM or Bayern and the like even take him in though?

What exactly has he shown to be worthy of being in the best teams in the world?

Chelsea is his level. Until he shows himself to be better than Chelsea, Chelsea is where he deserves to be. You can talk about the team around him but they won the league last year and it's the same team and yet he's still playing like crap. I agree with Mole, stop making excuses because of what he can be and accept him for who he is.

It's the same crap with Balotelli. Not sure how he's still managed to be shipped around fairly prestigious clubs for as long as he has. For some reason people still think he has all of this talent and he'll turn into a world class forward or something. He's a decent forward at best and really Liverpool and Milan in their current state are about his level. Maybe not quite good enough for them, tbh.

Curtinho wrote:There's nothing wrong with Chelsea as a team. He's not performing period. They have enough good players and just won the league.

Also nothing wrong with being statistically driven but when you refuse to complement that base with outside factors it becomes too narrow. Statistics can tell you a lot of things you will miss just watching the ball or the game, things that 99% of people don't pay attention to.

Guess Mourinho was sacked for no reason Of course there is something wrong with the team. t
That being said , Hazard for me was never going to be a Neymar/Messi/Cr7 player. He's very good but for now his ceiling is Ribéry level imo ( which is great ) . At 25 he still have time to get there.

Sorry. Hazard will have to go a long way to come anywhere near Ribéry.

Not willing to accept Ribéry being used as some exemplary 2nd tier scrub any longer

Hapless_Hans wrote:Sorry. Hazard will have to go a long way to come anywhere near Ribéry.

Not willing to accept Ribéry being used as some exemplary 2nd tier scrub any longer

As I said his ceiling is Ribéry level. a long way to go but he still got ~5 years to get there.

Its strange that when its messi/hazard giving assists, jiopsi doesn't give credit to the players scoring them but when messi/hazard doesn't have assists its about the players not being good enough to score.. If it were some other player, he would just go into the excel sheet and post some useless stats to show that the player has so and so assists without giving these same considerations..

Now look at the fraud giving excuses hazard is average, just get over it!!!

harmonica logic is simple, messi is the best dribbler so obviously the second best dribbler, would and should be number 2 in the world.... cause dribbling>dribbling into no where>actually performing.