Re: The Official WWE Thread - Part 26

[Jay29]

You're about as casual a fan as the rest of us here i.e. not at all

Anyway, I don't completely disagree with you about some of the new guys coming on. I'm not a casual fan but I don't know much about the work Styles, Bullet Club, Nakamura etc. did in other promotions and WWE obviously aren't going to show me. These guys are starting out in a whole new continuity for them, so WWE have to ensure they do something to make fans invents in them for a different reason than they were good in TNA/NJPW.

Now in fairness I think they are doing this at the moment, though I do worry about Balor.

[M99]

Nitpicking RAW is normal on the internet. The product totally sucks nowadays lol.

And M99 just hates the fact that I don't like the indy guys, not because I'm nitpicking.

I dislike half of indie guys myself lol. Your incessant whining and hate posts are tiresome to read.

It looks like Styles needs an Austin pop every city for you to acknowledge he's over.

Also a guy who is in wrestlingforum is not a casual. You just decided to play a Baron Corbin gimmick.

[Great Leader Sprucenuce]

I worry about Balor as a singles guy tbh, already said that but if he comes in as part of a stable then he should be ok.

I mean Reigns was over as part of the Shield lol.

Well I consider myself a casual and I don't want to see a randomer I know nothing about/hasn't don't anything overly impressive get title shots.

To me being a 15 year veteran in TNA doesn't mean anything. When I see AJ Styles, I just see a guy who flips around. The same as an Evan Bourne or a Kofi.

That's not to say they shouldn't be booked strong. But a main event feud straight away? Nah.

He doesn't just flip around though, the reason his in ring style is so praised is because it's a mixture of mat technician skills, high flying and strikes. This idea he's just a high flyer is factually wrong as his moveset is as varied as anyone.

As for being in the main event straight away, that's also wrong seeing as he's been here for nearly 4 months. If he was in the main event straight away like you claim then he would have been facing Reigns at Mania and not the 2nd match on the card lol.

Besides people have come in outside the company and been pushed faster than this before, i really don't see the problem behind it. It obviously wasn't a plan to give him a push immediately but it became the plan once it was clear how well he was received.

[Great Leader Sprucenuce]

Oh and the product has sucked for a decade, you never decided to shit on everything then though.

Even during the Yes Movement the rest of the show was decidedly crap, nobody thinks the show is awesome but the nitpicking of every segment is tiring as hell.

If i wanted to i could pick apart the large majority of segments through each Raw over the last decade and thanks for the WWE Network it's piss easy for me to do but i'm not going to do that because nobody wants to read rants about that shit.

[Jay29]

Just on Balor, I was reading a thread over on the Wrestlezone forums about his demon gimmick, and how it only really comes out during his entrance and doesn't change his in-ring work in anyway. Like, he puts the face paint on, has the epic entrance, but then wrestles like he usually does.

So my thinking was that when he eventually appears on RAW he needs to make the demon stuff more noticeable in the ring. Maybe he gets more aggressive, or occasionally no sells a few moves. Otherwise nobody's going to take it seriously.

[Great Leader Sprucenuce]

Yeah that's the exact flaw with it all.... it's not that he puts the face paint on randomly or anything like that.

It's that he doesn't act any different, if he was more aggressive used more dangerous looking/impactful moves and makes it seem like he's harder to beat then it would be fine.

I still would have concerns regardless, but in terms of his gimmick it would help.

[Onyx]

You're about as casual a fan as the rest of us here i.e. not at all

Anyway, I don't completely disagree with you about some of the new guys coming on. I'm not a casual fan but I don't know much about the work Styles, Bullet Club, Nakamura etc. did in other promotions and WWE obviously aren't going to show me. These guys are starting out in a whole new continuity for them, so WWE have to ensure they do something to make fans invents in them for a different reason than they were good in TNA/NJPW.

Now in fairness I think they are doing this at the moment, though I do worry about Balor.

Well by casual I mean someone who just watches the WWE and knows very little about other promotions. And when you see a random guy coming in, getting hyped up because of a past you know nothing about, it's a bit weird imo.

But yeh I mostly agree with that. The fact that they were stars in other promotions shouldn't be the reason for their push. They have to connect and get over with the WWE audience first.

[M99]

Weakness of Balor is mic work as a face. Dude sounds like a robot when giving promos. He is much better talking as a heel and even then, I think Anderson should be talking the most.

[Great Leader Sprucenuce]

Weakness of Balor is mic work as a face. Dude sounds like a robot when giving promos. He is much better talking as a heel and even then, I think Anderson should be talking the most.

That too, he's a pretty good heel tbh and i'll be pretty annoyed if he comes in as a face. Nobody wants that and to be frank considering how little heels they are on the roster they don't need it either.

[Onyx]

I worry about Balor as a singles guy tbh, already said that but if he comes in as part of a stable then he should be ok.

I mean Reigns was over as part of the Shield lol.

Well I consider myself a casual and I don't want to see a randomer I know nothing about/hasn't don't anything overly impressive get title shots.

To me being a 15 year veteran in TNA doesn't mean anything. When I see AJ Styles, I just see a guy who flips around. The same as an Evan Bourne or a Kofi.

That's not to say they shouldn't be booked strong. But a main event feud straight away? Nah.

He doesn't just flip around though, the reason his in ring style is so praised is because it's a mixture of mat technician skills, high flying and strikes. This idea he's just a high flyer is factually wrong as his moveset is as varied as anyone.

As for being in the main event straight away, that's also wrong seeing as he's been here for nearly 4 months. If he was in the main event straight away like you claim then he would have been facing Reigns at Mania and not the 2nd match on the card lol.

Besides people have come in outside the company and been pushed faster than this before, i really don't see the problem behind it. It obviously wasn't a plan to give him a push immediately but it became the plan once it was clear how well he was received.

Well he debuted at the rumble, which was 3 months ago. And 3 months is an extremely short time to go from midcard to title shot/main event feud.

I know that Styles is good in the ring, but I don't see how ring work alone makes him a main eventer. All I see is another Cesaro, Kofi, Evan Bourne, Justin Gabriel etc. There's nothing special or unique about Styles. And he's not main event level over either, on average he gets mild babyface reactions.

Once he's over to the point where it's a loud consistent reaction on a weekly basis, then we can talk about a push. Yesterday he got crickets and it was nothing to do with the crowd because Enzo/Cass got the loudest pop of the night.

Casuals want entertaining characters. Ringwork alone isn't enough. It's the reason why coming out smiling isn't going to work for Crews and Zayn. They need to work on a character.

[CM Pep]

You're about as casual a fan as the rest of us here i.e. not at all

Anyway, I don't completely disagree with you about some of the new guys coming on. I'm not a casual fan but I don't know much about the work Styles, Bullet Club, Nakamura etc. did in other promotions and WWE obviously aren't going to show me. These guys are starting out in a whole new continuity for them, so WWE have to ensure they do something to make fans invents in them for a different reason than they were good in TNA/NJPW.

Now in fairness I think they are doing this at the moment, though I do worry about Balor.

Well by casual I mean someone who just watches the WWE and knows very little about other promotions. And when you see a random guy coming in, getting hyped up because of a past you know nothing about, it's a bit weird imo.

But yeh I mostly agree with that. The fact that they were stars in other promotions shouldn't be the reason for their push. They have to connect and get over with the WWE audience first.

Which Styles has done. He gets a good enough pop.

I mean I had no clue who this guy is, but the pop at RR was enough to tell me that he must be cool. And then after watching I figured, he's not so bad. Maybe improvement on the mic but still entertaining.

And I'm definitely a casual fan. I tune in properly only from RR to WM. Otherwise, it's just if I heard the RAW is good, that too from this forum. I sometimes skip a PPV too if it's really jobber.

[Great Leader Sprucenuce]

How are you supposed to get over with the crowd anyway if you position these guys are scrubs.

Apollo Crews is a prime example, he gets little to no reaction at all because he's in squash matches against scrubs. The best way to make these guys a big deal is put them into positions so they are perceived as big deals.

How they are dealing with AJ, Anderson and Gallows is correct IMO, time will tell if they deal with the others in similar manner or not.

I just really fail to see what good it does anyone if you try to act like they are not a big deal, i get that they didn't do that with Bryan and Punk but that was wrong.

They should have been trying to make them seem like a big deal from the outset, that's what you do with new guys that you actually have high hopes for and they either sink or swim.

[Onyx]

Which Styles has done. He gets a good enough pop.

I mean I had no clue who this guy is, but the pop at RR was enough to tell me that he must be cool. And then after watching I figured, he's not so bad. Maybe improvement on the mic but still entertaining.

And I'm definitely a casual fan. I tune in properly only from RR to WM. Otherwise, it's just if I heard the RAW is good, that too from this forum.  I sometimes skip a PPV too if it's really jobber.

Rumble is usually a smark crowd, it's the reason why he got such a loud pop that night. I don't usually take their reactions seriously.

[Onyx]

How are you supposed to get over with the crowd anyway if you position these guys are scrubs.

Apollo Crews is a prime example, he gets little to no reaction at all because he's in squash matches against scrubs. The best way to make these guys a big deal is put them into positions so they are perceived as big deals.

How they are dealing with AJ, Anderson and Gallows is correct IMO, time will tell if they deal with the others in similar manner or not.

I just really fail to see what good it does anyone if you try to act like they are not a big deal, i get that they didn't do that with Bryan and Punk but that was wrong.

They should have been trying to make them seem like a big deal from the outset, that's what you do with new guys that you actually have high hopes for and they either sink or swim.

It's not just about position though. Reigns is positioned as the top guy and he gets rejected on a weekly basis. Apollo Crews gets crickets because he only just debuted last week and nobody knows anything about him as a character.

What matters the most is being entertaining as a character and connecting with the audience.

Coming out wrestling with minimal character isn't going to get anyone main event level over.

[Great Leader Sprucenuce]

Yeah but MT, the large majority of weeks he has been getting good reactions and sometimes better than that.

His merchandise is constantly selling out, it hasn't been just smark crowds. I have been watching every RAW and Smackdown since the Rumble

Melzer says that on house shows he outdoes their main event guys Use a bit of common sense they wouldn't be putting him in a title match if he was flopping in terms of crowd reactions and merchandise selling.

Basically everybody involved say he's over, this isn't some sort of conspiracy theory to troll you or anything lol. It's what is happening and like i said if he wasn't they wouldn't put him in a title match this soon.

[CM Pep]

Which Styles has done. He gets a good enough pop.

I mean I had no clue who this guy is, but the pop at RR was enough to tell me that he must be cool. And then after watching I figured, he's not so bad. Maybe improvement on the mic but still entertaining.

And I'm definitely a casual fan. I tune in properly only from RR to WM. Otherwise, it's just if I heard the RAW is good, that too from this forum.  I sometimes skip a PPV too if it's really jobber.

Rumble is usually a smark crowd, it's the reason why he got such a loud pop that night. I don't usually take their reactions seriously.

Ya probably, but that pop got him over with other people too. You know, people start asking, "Oh who's this guy?" "What did he do?"

That's what I did. A lot of my group did tbh. And then he comes up and puts a decent show on. He's not Punk on the mic, but hey he's better than Roman.

He's got a decent character, not main event level? Ya well, after so much Reigns, anyone seems main event level. That's why you don't see casual complaining. He might not meet your standards, but the casuals are (mildly) content as of now.

How are you supposed to get over with the crowd anyway if you position these guys are scrubs.

Apollo Crews is a prime example, he gets little to no reaction at all because he's in squash matches against scrubs. The best way to make these guys a big deal is put them into positions so they are perceived as big deals.

How they are dealing with AJ, Anderson and Gallows is correct IMO, time will tell if they deal with the others in similar manner or not.

I just really fail to see what good it does anyone if you try to act like they are not a big deal, i get that they didn't do that with Bryan and Punk but that was wrong.

They should have been trying to make them seem like a big deal from the outset, that's what you do with new guys that you actually have high hopes for and they either sink or swim.

It's not just about position though. Reigns is positioned as the top guy and he gets rejected on a weekly basis. Apollo Crews gets crickets because he only just debuted last week and nobody knows anything about him as a character.

What matters the most is being entertaining as a character and connecting with the audience.

Coming out wrestling with minimal character isn't going to get anyone main event level over.

I think I've seen you say that part since like 1 year or something. It's honestly like a gimmick or something. No disrespect, but I can kind of picture you coming out and saying that as regularly as Reigns does the 'I'm THE guy' routine.

You're right, but sheesh, chill out man.

[Onyx]

Yeah but MT, the large majority of weeks he has been getting good reactions and sometimes better than that.

His merchandise is constantly selling out, it hasn't been just smark crowds. I have been watching every RAW and Smackdown since the Rumble

Melzer says that on house shows he outdoes their main event guys Use a bit of common sense they wouldn't be putting him in a title match if he was flopping in terms of crowd reactions and merchandise selling.

Basically everybody involved say he's over, this isn't some sort of conspiracy theory to troll you or anything lol. It's what is happening and like i said if he wasn't they wouldn't put him in a title match this soon.

Merch sales and/or being over doesn't mean anything. Whoever Vince wants main eventing, will main event.

If merch meant anything Ryder wouldn't be buried and if being over meant anything, Sandow would at the very least be on the show.

[Great Leader Sprucenuce]

Ok

No point talking to you like this, so you know Ryder and Sandow never ever at any stage made them money like he is right now.

Nobody has ever come into the company within 6 months and got a title shot at a PPV without being over with the crowd and/or making the company money in some way it just doesn't happen.

[Onyx]

Ya probably, but that pop got him over with other people too. You know, people start asking, "Oh who's this guy?" "What did he do?"

That's what I did. A lot of my group did tbh. And then he comes up and puts a decent show on. He's not Punk on the mic, but hey he's better than Roman.

He's got a decent character, not main event level? Ya well, after so much Reigns, anyone seems main event level. That's why you don't see casual complaining. He might not meet your standards, but the casuals are (mildly) content as of now.

I think I've seen you say that part since like 1 year or something. It's honestly like a gimmick or something. No disrespect, but I can kind of picture you coming out and saying that as regularly as Reigns does the 'I'm THE guy' routine.

You're right, but sheesh, chill out man.

That's the problem though. People are now using Reigns as benchmark to judge talent. I do it too occasionally, but it's the wrong way to go. The usual high standards need to be maintained when determining who should be World champion or not.

With me I don't judge talent based on what they've done in promotions I haven't watched. They need to entertain me on the show that I'm watching and in this case, Styles hasn't done that.

And yes, making sure everyone has a gimmick is my gimmick. The GL roster will confirm.

[Onyx]

Ok

No point talking to you like this, so you know Ryder and Sandow never ever at any stage made them money like he is right now.

Nobody has ever come into the company within 6 months and got a title shot at a PPV without being over with the crowd and/or making the company money in some way it just doesn't happen.

I'd like to see a list of figures that shows how much he's sold. Unless he's outselling Cena, it doesn't really mean anything imo.

[Casciavit]

RAW was alright.

I'm glad they finally gave the world-wide audience a reason as to why Owens and Zayn hate each other.

I enjoyed the Y2J-Dean segment. Serious Ambrose is always welcomed.

It's also pretty clear that the bullet club will screw AJ & Reigns and say Balor was pulling the strings all along.

[Great Leader Sprucenuce]

Screw Reigns ? I think they will just screw AJ, then AJ feuds with Balor and Reigns go onto something else.

What that is i have no idea tbh.

[Kaladin]

Was an okay RAW, liked Bullet Club's clothing, Dean/J section and Cesaro

Also, i think its wishful thinking to expect Roman to turn heel now/next week, seems like he's gonna stay face

[Casciavit]

Of course he was. Vince poured millions in protecting and marketing him as the next big babyface. There was no way he was turning heel, regardless of boos.

[Great Leader Sprucenuce]

As i said before him turning isn't the issue, it's making him interesting. Him turning isn't going to make him interesting by itself.

[Onyx]

Yeh, I can't see Vince turning Reigns heel after everything they've invested into him.

But to stand any chance of being accepted, he needs to turn heel, drop the shield act and work on a new character in the midcard. That's the ideal move for him, doubt it'll happen though.

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