Re: Premier League 17-18 Discussion Part 2

by Winter is Coming Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:39 am

First tests suggest Kante has suffered a severe grade II hamstring tear. Kante ruled out until end of 2017. #CFC pic.twitter.com/WnYQS3Glg1
— Matt Law (@Matt__Law__DT) October 7, 2017

by Unique Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:38 am

so today marks klopps first 2 years at the club.
Klopp’s win percentage at Liverpool is 49.5% . It is a solid effort, without question, but it needs to go up if the Reds are to become a genuine force.
Rodgers (50%), Gerard Houllier (52.12%) and Benitez (56.28%) all had superior records by the time they left.

@nish. looks like I was right when I said we have not made any progress since Rodgers :coffee:

by Unique Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:40 am

Number of goals conceded. That attacking aspect of Klopp’s play may have caught the eye, but the defensive side has been a major issue.

To let in 125 goals in 111 matches has to be considered disappointing.

37 clean sheets have been kept in Klopp’s 111 matches. In 2005/06, under Rafa Benitez, Liverpool had 33, going to show there is plenty to work on at the back.

by iftikhar Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:23 pm

Reina*
Johnson Carragher Agger Riise
Mascherano Alonso
Kyut Gerrard Babel
Torres

Look at that team, it had quality all over the pitch. Then there were Hyypia, Aurelio, Arbeloa, Sissoko, Riera, Crouch who contributed in various time-frame.

Mignolet*
Clyne Matip Lovren Moreno
Henderson
Emre Coutinho
Salah Firmino Mane

Now look at this freaking lineup. I have included Mig only because Reina wasn't a great keeper either.

Two years is a substantial period and yes Klopp needs to figure out on improving the win percentage and the leaking defense. While I wouldn't give him another blank-cheque at this point; I'm definitely going to keep my faith on him.

by Hapless_Hans Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:48 pm

Take it to the Klopp thread in your section.

Noone else wants to read that shit, because frankly everyone else knows Klopp is the best coach Liverpool can hope for.

by El Gunner Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:11 pm

Winter is Coming wrote:
First tests suggest Kante has suffered a severe grade II hamstring tear. Kante ruled out until end of 2017. #CFC pic.twitter.com/WnYQS3Glg1
— Matt Law (@Matt__Law__DT) October 7, 2017

great news for the rest of the league

by Unique Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:22 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:Take it to the Klopp thread in your section.

Noone else wants to read that shit, because frankly everyone else knows Klopp is the best coach Liverpool can hope for.

then the drug problem on this forum is worst than I thought

by Nishankly Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:04 pm

Unique wrote:so today marks klopps first 2 years at the club.
Klopp’s win percentage at Liverpool is 49.5% . It is a solid effort, without question, but it needs to go up if the Reds are to become a genuine force.
Rodgers (50%), Gerard Houllier (52.12%) and Benitez (56.28%) all had superior records by the time they left.

@nish. looks like I was right when I said we have not made any progress since Rodgers

Rodgers got 4 years mate

by Unique Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:34 am

Nishankly wrote:
Unique wrote:so today marks klopps first 2 years at the club.
Klopp’s win percentage at Liverpool is 49.5% . It is a solid effort, without question, but it needs to go up if the Reds are to become a genuine force.
Rodgers (50%), Gerard Houllier (52.12%) and Benitez (56.28%) all had superior records by the time they left.

@nish. looks like I was right when I said we have not made any progress since Rodgers

Rodgers got 4 years mate

how many years will it take for klopp to make some sort of improvement in defence.

by Glory Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:44 am

Until Klopp signs a good defender(s). The issue with Klopp is not his inability to fix a leaking defense. The issue with Klopp is his ego that makes him think he can win stuff with Lovren and Moreno.

Tomorrow if you guys go and sign a solid cb (ala Matip), you would automatically improve. Under someone who apparently can't 'organize his defense', Matip has done more than a decent job so far imo. And I am not even talking about signing the 50m VVD's and the likes here. For 15-20m you can decent defenders from smaller teams. Defenders like Harry Maguire for one.

by iftikhar Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:46 am

Glory wrote:Until Klopp signs a good defender(s). The issue with Klopp is not his inability to fix a leaking defense. The issue with Klopp is his ego that makes him think he can win stuff with Lovren and Moreno.

Tomorrow if you guys go and sign a solid cb (ala Matip), you would automatically improve. Under someone who apparently can't 'organize his defense', Matip has done more than a decent job so far imo. And I am not even talking about signing the 50m VVD's and the likes here. For 15-20m you can decent defenders from smaller teams. Defenders like Harry Maguire for one.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:04 am

It's not the ego tbh, he's the same as Wenger in the sense he has far too much faith in his players.

Sometimes this can be a good thing, but with certain players you have to know when it's time to move on.

by BarrileteCosmico Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:14 pm

Am I the only one that doubts whether Maguire and Matip would actually be improvements?

by CBarca Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:04 pm

Nope.

I think people look at the individuals in Liverpool's defense and since they aren't top class, think that individual improvements will make them better automatically.

Let me be clear: Liverpool can and should make some improvements in the personnel of their defense. LB being Milner or Moreno is a travesty.

But the bigger problem is Klopp and the system as far as the defense goes. Defending is much more of a team effort than an individual one.

People didn't rate Danny Rose as a LB before Poch and people saw Walker as a defensive liability. That narrative changed the past two seasons why? They suddenly learned how to defend?

Put Rose and Walker in Liverpool's defense and I'm not sure how much better Pool gets, defensively at least.

by Glory Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:43 pm

^ Solid points. But still neither Lovren nor Moreno are anywhere near good. Lovren had like 1 good season in his entire playing career where as Moreno is more of a sprinter disguised as a defender. Both of them were equally bad under Rodgers as well.

by CBarca Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:56 pm

Let's note however that Lovren did look pretty good at Southampton. At least good enough that Pool wanted to pick him up.

I agree, however, and I said as much in my post. They do need better personnel.

Let me also clear up that I still think Klopp is the best Pool can do atm

by Hapless_Hans Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:29 pm

CBarca wrote:Nope.

I think people look at the individuals in Liverpool's defense and since they aren't top class, think that individual improvements will make them better automatically.

Let me be clear: Liverpool can and should make some improvements in the personnel of their defense. LB being Milner or Moreno is a travesty.

But the bigger problem is Klopp and the system as far as the defense goes. Defending is much more of a team effort than an individual one.

People didn't rate Danny Rose as a LB before Poch and people saw Walker as a defensive liability. That narrative changed the past two seasons why? They suddenly learned how to defend?

Put Rose and Walker in Liverpool's defense and I'm not sure how much better Pool gets, defensively at least.

Let's not pretend as if Spurs under Poch are performing any better than Liverpool in the PL, though.
And contrary to Spurs, Klopp reached a EL final, while Poch went out to BVB.

So, after all the words you write, in the end Klopp is achieving the same as Poch with worse players.

by CBarca Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:57 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:
CBarca wrote:Nope.

I think people look at the individuals in Liverpool's defense and since they aren't top class, think that individual improvements will make them better automatically.

Let me be clear: Liverpool can and should make some improvements in the personnel of their defense. LB being Milner or Moreno is a travesty.

But the bigger problem is Klopp and the system as far as the defense goes. Defending is much more of a team effort than an individual one.

People didn't rate Danny Rose as a LB before Poch and people saw Walker as a defensive liability. That narrative changed the past two seasons why? They suddenly learned how to defend?

Put Rose and Walker in Liverpool's defense and I'm not sure how much better Pool gets, defensively at least.

Let's not pretend as if Spurs under Poch are performing any better than Liverpool in the PL, though.
And contrary to Spurs, Klopp reached a EL final, while Poch went out to BVB.

So, after all the words you write, in the end Klopp is achieving the same as Poch with worse players.

https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/16/72/25/30/totten10.jpg

That was from April of this past year too. Spurs are currently two points above Pool atm as well. Anyway I've got nothing to say, this table makes it pretty clear that you're not even arguably right, you're very clearly wrong. Talking about the EL is not relevant so I'm not going to address it.

I'm not sure why you're going on the offense here. I've said that I think Klopp is the best manager Pool can get and I rate him as a manager. Does his system leave Liverpool defenders somewhat exposed? Yes. Has he not done a good enough job getting better defenders even in spite of this fact? Yeah. This isn't my opinion, this is just fact Laughing

I didn't even compare him to Poch in terms of achievement or where I rate them as managers, I'm just saying that Poch's system is much different and has achieved different results with players who weren't seen as much better defenders than Moreno/Clyne. In fact, I'm not sure Rose or Walker are better defenders. That argument is to illustrate the point that until Klopp tweaks his system, the team isn't going to massively improve defensively even with personnel improvements.

Feel free to respond if you actually want to debate the point. If you'd like to attack strawmen, go somewhere else

by El Gunner Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:03 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:It's not the ego tbh, he's the same as Wenger in the sense he has far too much faith in his players.

Sometimes this can be a good thing, but with certain players you have to know when it's time to move on.

True dat. I mean they have quite average players. You guys see me always commenting about the state of that team whether it's here or on Twitter, and because I never can get over that average team besides obvious class such as Mane and Coutinho, and then Matip is the only other one above average. Maybe you can make a case for Firmino as well, because he makes players around him better.

At least we have Sanchez and Ozil as world class. Koscielny as top class. And Giroud, Lacazatte, Cech, Ramsey, Monreal as above average.

@Hans bringing CSpurs back to his level rofl

by BarrileteCosmico Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:03 pm

We are comparing defenses, not achievements. Poch has had the best defense in terms of goals conceded for 2 seasons now. The comparison is definitely appropriate.

But you don't even need to compare to Spurs. You could compare to Ranieri's Leicester which had far worse players than Liverpool's defense but was able to concede less through a more disciplined approach.

by M99 Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:19 pm

@Firenze how in the world did you get Martinez's number???

Belgium manager Roberto Martinez complains about receiving calls at 3 am from a stranger asking him to keep Lukaku out of his squad.
— The 4th Official (@Official_T4O) October 9, 2017

by iftikhar Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:23 pm

M99 wrote:@Firenze how in the world did you get Martinez's number???

Belgium manager Roberto Martinez complains about receiving calls at 3 am from a stranger asking him to keep Lukaku out of his squad.
— The 4th Official (@Official_T4O) October 9, 2017

by iftikhar Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:34 pm

Echo wrote:Sadio Mane will miss Liverpool's next NINE games

by RealGunner Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:21 pm

M99 wrote:@Firenze how in the world did you get Martinez's number???

Belgium manager Roberto Martinez complains about receiving calls at 3 am from a stranger asking him to keep Lukaku out of his squad.
— The 4th Official (@Official_T4O) October 9, 2017

by Nishankly Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:23 pm

iftikhar wrote:
Echo wrote:Sadio Mane will miss Liverpool's next NINE games

RIP LFC
RIP Klopp
Congrats Unique.

by CBarca Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:33 pm

iftikhar wrote:
Echo wrote:Sadio Mane will miss Liverpool's next NINE games

For his kick?

Seems excessive. Isn't that similar to Suarez for literally biting someone off the ball?

Feel like 5 or 6 might be better. Then again, I guess Mane almost decapitated Ederson

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