Alaves v Real Madrid

This is such a bad faith argument bro lol, Zidane got rid of a bunch of people he had disagreements with or did not want to sniff in his squad like Ceballosor Llorente for example. He tried getting rid of Mariano and Bale as well but that did not work.

It's much easier to come in the summer and clean up the squad than to take it mid season and deal with the existing players.

Also Marcelo was in great shape start of this season, why was he fat at the start of last one? You can argue that Zidane is a much better man manager than Solari, after all he has known this current squad for over 7 years working with Mourinho, Ancelotti, and then being their boss. All I said is, players have their own share of responsibility when things go wrong and using Isco and Marcelo as an example of why Solari was bad is about as bad faith as can be

You argument has flaws too Nick.   You take too many things as a given when they're absolutely not.

Isco does well with ZZ because ZZ accepts him for what he is... not what he hopes he may become. So his role is very well defined and work within his skillset. Lopetegui wanted Isco to become the fulcrum of the attack (he can't) and Solari also had a predefined expectation that Isco didn't meet. Solari just set him aside as if he didn't exist (like many others). That's ok if it was a Mariano, Ceballos, Llorente, etc. that aren't part of the core team to begin with... but when you start doing that with key players, that's a problem.

Even if he doesn't want players, ZZ won't let his wishes get in the way of what's best for the team.  Bale and James play because the team is better with them right now (James isn't needed anymore imo with Hazard and Modric playing).  His actions make it pretty clear that his decisions are entirely about business; absolutely nothing personal.

At the end of the day, the squad has to buy into the manager.  We're not in an era where dictator managers can work.  There's a trust with Zidane and the players which was earned... in both directions.

We're in a good place.  Everyone is pulling in the same direction.  Let's hope it continues.

Solari is not the first manager to take a new job and to put certain players aside for the sake of imposing his ideas and to do what he thinks is right. Actually I don't want to judge a manager because he likes certain players like Solari. I could also look at things from the point of view that Isco has pretty much not counted for Zidane until this point, it's not like Zidane is crazy about Isco and will start him no matter what.

What you are telling me is that Zidane and Solari understand coaching differently, none is better than the other and I can find many successful managers on each side of that argument.

What I called out Hala for, is blaming Isco and Marcelo's misform last season on Solari. That was not true at all.

That's not what I'm saying.

Even the biggest of dictators (Mou for example), gets buy in form the group and creates competition.  You may not agree with his criteria...  but Mou makes it perfectly clear what the parameters are for his players.  Mou's problem is that the current generation will only put up with his bs for a season... maybe 2.  He gets everyone pointed in the right direction, then his ego takes over.  He doesn't compromise at all.

Solari took over and had no plan other than clapping from the sidelines and picking players that he liked (without any real criteria; which is the key).  The guy had no business coaching, let alone for Madrid.  He was the worse Castilla coach ever according to most too.

Flo literally picked a guy he could kick out at any time so he could work on finding a replacement for Lopetegui once Conte passed.

Solari was incompetent and that's being kind.

Oh and Isco played key roles for Madrid in CL during ZZ's last tenure. He started CL final against Juve if I recall correctly. That's what caused Bale's ire... Isco was preferred over him in all the big games in ZZ's last season.

Just to add my 2 cents to this. I think the players, basically all of them hold most of the accountability for last years performance. Take a look at results, 3 different coaches with 3 completely different methods and tactics yet the results were the same.

I also put a lot of blame on Flo, first for not doing anything in off season and then for dismissing Lopetequi. With his current results, it’s obvious (at least to me) that he wasn’t given sufficient time to work out the problems.

On the other hand, you have to credit Zidane for team’s current form and the fact that he now has most of team performing. I’m still not convinced we can handle the big teams, but it encouraging.

As to Nick trying to defend Solari and trying to call Hala out, I totally disagree. Solari was simply awful, no better than the miserable job he did at Castilla. Have you noticed how many offers he has gotten to coach elsewhere?

futbol_bill wrote:Just to add my 2 cents to this. I think the players, basically all of them hold most of the accountability for last years performance. Take a look at results, 3 different coaches with 3 completely different methods and tactics yet the results were the same.

I also put a lot of blame on Flo, first for not doing anything in off season and then for dismissing Lopetequi. With his current results, it’s obvious (at least to me) that he wasn’t given sufficient time to work out the problems.

On the other hand, you have to credit Zidane for team’s current form and the fact that he now has most of team performing. I’m still not convinced we can handle the big teams, but it encouraging.

As to Nick trying to defend Solari and trying to call Hala out, I totally disagree. Solari was simply awful, no better than the miserable job he did at Castilla. Have you noticed how many offers he has gotten to coach elsewhere?

This is my opinion, also. Excluding your points about Solari, as I’m not very familiar with him and I really don’t think he was given enough time with us to judge his ability or credentials based on what we saw from him. The points about his man-management are largely speculation and assumptions, as always. I don’t particularly care about him, at this point in time, and I don’t see why any of us should. Zidane is doing well, don’t want to discredit him for anything. Then again, I don’t see any reason to boil all of the credit down to his doing. I don’t believe the main culprits from the start of last season would’ve stayed in a slump forever, and even if they did, the summer provided us with more options. Our veterans are declining, but we now have more alternatives. If that doesn’t boost their motivation, we can simply bench them.

We don’t even have to rely on Bale/Vasquez anymore, we’ve got CB and LB backup, as well as the addition of Hazard and Fede Valverde who matured into a 21 year old this summer. Even Benzema has competition now, although it fortunately hasn’t been needed since last season - at least, not in the short term. By all means, thumbs up for Zidane, but the summer marked a pretty substantial transition in the squad in comparison to last season, and although we still had issues at the start, and the transfer window wasn’t perfect, things were only going to improve from there.

I still think it’s far too early to kneejerk on this short upturn in form, and our most veteran players, bar Benz, are clearly well into the twillight years of their career, but the rest of the team have their best years ahead of them independently of where they may play or who their coach may be.

lol quote one line of my previous posts were im saying Solari was great? Its fine if you want to single out Solari for being bad, all i said is at least use the right argument to make that case. Isco and Marcelo's form dont cut it here

I'm not solari's biggest fan , but you guys do realize he was brought in during the middle of the campaign, y'all do realize that right?
I am not saying he is a great coach, hell, not even saying he is a good coach, but before he was brought in, it's not like the players where lighting it up. Isco had one good game against roma last season prior to solari joining. Marcelo couldn't be bothered with defending

Solari was by no means a genius, and probably knows very little about coaching. But u cant excuse the players and lay all the blame on him. We had lope solari and zidane last season and it was an extremely forgettable year. It's not like we had mr steady the ship all year

Isco had a surgery in the middle of the season and did not recover well

Marcelo was fat and playing terribly, not the fault of anyone else but his own

Solari needed to win and these two players were sinkholes. They deserved to be benched and would have been benched with that form under Zidane as well

Zidane is making cut throat decisions left and right but you are praising him lol. The way he told about bale in press conference has been disrespectful, he got rid of guys that contributed a lot last year like Ceballos or Llorente as if they were peasants. Didn't he sell Keylord? Lol

Solari was not a good coach but the arguments you are using to argue that are not the correct one.

Ceballos contributed exactly nothing last year.  He was benched towards the end of Lope's tenure... Solari then benched him...  and ZZ benched him some more.

ZZ just never rated Llorente (or Ceballos for that matter).  Given Llorente has gotten a total of 300 minutes by Atleti this season so far...  he's not rated much higher by Simeone and he loves DMs.

And no, ZZ did not sell Navas.  Navas asked to leave and Flo allowed him to.  Here are some articles:

https://www.euronews.com/2019/08/23/zidane-cannot-contemplate-goalkeeper-navas-leaving-real-madrid

https://en.as.com/en/2019/10/30/football/1572427050_510441.html

Don't make shit up to make your argument...

Just to set the record straight, Isco had major surgery a couple of weeks into September and he rushed his return (it's not clear if it was him or coaches). He returned to practice just before Lopetequi was let go. He wasn't in shape which was the prime reason he was benched, in addition to Solari not liking his style of play for the formation he was going to use.

I don't believe Isco has been in game shape until a few weeks ago.

This guy has really taken a toll. In summer of 2019, he was on top of world. The Spanish NT was counting on him to be the leader of team and so was Lopetequi for Madrid, or at least a starter. In addition he was settled into Madrid with wife and child coming.

Then for a screwed up coaching change at NT and his appendicitis, everything fell apart for him. I know we like to blame Solari for this, but it was Isco's injury/ recovery that was mostly at fault plus there was an attitude problem not just with Solari. and of course there is Chad's opinion!

I feel for the guy and hope Hala and Doc are right that he has recovered his form / confidence and that Zidane is going to use him. Plus there is another coach keeping an eye on him as well re next summer (Enrique).

Guys... neither Ceballos or Llorente are having much impact.  Ceballos has been injured and just your average Arsenal player before that (no end product as we saw in Madrid).  Llorente has a total of 300 mins all comps so far...  so no time or impact.    To put that in perspective, Vinicius has 450 minutes.

I don't understand people's obsession with players that literally did nothing while at Madrid and done nothing more once they left.  At least let them achieve something before missing them lol.

Well you are right re Llorente, but you certainly are under playing his play at Arsenal. Go ask some of the Arsenal guys on GL.

Zidane clearly doesn’t like him and for sure, he won’t return as long as Zidane is with club. Whether it be the kid’s attitude or style of play, who knows, but he is rated by Arsenal and Spanish NT. He is not as advanced as Odegaard, but I’m sure he will have a decent career, even if he never returns.

I watch Arsenal... followed them since Wenger went there.

Ceballos is absolutely bang average and most Arsenal fans feel the same. He was good early on and then fell off into what he was at Madrid. His problem is that he he has no position. He's not a AM and he's not a CM.... a midfielder with nothing above average.


That said, the way Xhaka is playing, Ceballos will get his chance. Arsenal don't have good mids.

sportsczy wrote:I watch Arsenal... followed them since Wenger went there.

Ceballos is absolutely bang average and most Arsenal fans feel the same.  He was good early on and then fell off into what he was at Madrid.  His problem is that he he has no position.  He's not a AM and he's not a CM....  a midfielder with nothing above average.


That said, the way Xhaka is playing, Ceballos will get his chance.  Arsenal don't have good mids.  

This is my impression, as well. I wouldn’t go as far as to say he’s bang average, but he doesn’t display his best qualities often enough to make a case for him being a starter. And like Bale, Morata and several other players, he seems to perform best coming off the bench.

Also, I can’t help but notice that he truly shines when his legs are fresh and his high work rate allows him to hustle opponent players. He can be a difference-maker in that state, but perhaps predictably, he’s yet to show that it’s anywhere near sustainable enough to warrant a starting spot. It’s for this exact reason that I don’t take for granted that Fede Valverde is our future solution in midfield, despite how bright he’s looked recently.

In a brand new interview with Keylor Navas, he says that he wanted to stay at Real Madrid, and didn’t know that he was headed for PSG until the transfer occurred. It was a forced transfer.

@thimmy... Navas is talking from both sides of his mouth. When talking to French reporters about PSG, he says he wanted to come there. When talking to reporters who ask him about Real Madrid, he says he never wanted to leave.

Who the heck knows. Everyone lies to the media in football lol.

Navas was never flo's chosen one, it is what it is. He was always brought in as a stop gap, which is why except from his first year we tried to sell him practically every season he was with us lol. It's just the reality of the business. Not mad at him, nor mad at flo either. I bet it wasnt personal, just business

sportsczy wrote:

Who the heck knows. Everyone lies to the media in football lol.

This is certainly true!

Currently 3-0 at half time. Great way to react after that mess in copa.

Hazard looked good.

Started the attacking play wide left but came inside into space behind Benzema. Working the entire attacking line from left to right.

Still not in 6th gear. He in about 4th

Hopefully by February 24, he's firing on all cylinders