Re: Is There A "Correct" Way To Play Football?

by Arquitecto Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:43 am

Alex,

With respect to you buddy your comment on Barca vs the past Azzuri teams is near laughable as:

1. There is no way to prove this as its fallacious.
2. You CRIMINALLY underrate the past Azzuri teams and Italian teams in general.

by Lord Spencer Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:44 am

I did not want to get into this debate before making a comprehensive run using all my contacts over the middle east asking, which team do you remember most in the 70's?

(The statistic is with me here if any of you wants me to reproduce it, 3000 45+ male foorball fans where asked which team does he remember most, the 3000 were in Iraq, Saudi, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran,Kuwait, Qatar).

Whop de de do, Brazil 1970 gets the most votes, then Argentina of 1978 (no attractive football here) then Germany of 1974, then Italy of 1970.

Since club football was not well known outside of Europe, football fans looked mostly at WC matches, and the Gritty German teams is more fondly remembered than the Dutch. You may find similiar reaction in east Asia where respect for hardwork outmatches respect for glamour.

@The Franchise, don't pull opinions out of your hat and pretend they are hard boiled facts, and don't go around calling people stupid kids.

Jeez, for a role model, you sure act childish sometimes.

The Beutiful Game made excellent points on the effects of glory in perceiving fame.

FACT, winning matters.

I highly doubt the the total football team of the Dutch would have been remembere as fondly if not for the Ajax team. You can say that they are remembered more than Gemany all you want, but even if you ar right, it would be by a slight margain, and even though, you cannot say that they will be remembered if they did not win any trophies.

Allow me to sum this up:

1- Please stop introducing opinions as facts.
2- Respect other people's opinions.
Football related note:
3- Trophis that does not win anything are not rememberes in spite of their football.
4- Teams that win a lot are remembered in spite of their footballs.
5- People remember some teams more fondly than others basedon prefrence.

I applaud the beutiful game for his insightful posts, keep it up please, I enjoy your work.

As for Alexjanosik;

Really, REALLY, cmon man, REEEEEELLY. Are you serious, wipe the floor with all the great Italian teams. What does wipe the floor imply, 4-0, 5-0, 8-0.

I would put this Barca with a potential to defeat or be defeated eqally if I wanted to ba accurate, although I feel you don't really care about accuracy.

@Lionel Messi,
A team is more than 11 players, Barca should have coped better with the injuries as great teams do. (which is why this deeper Barca is stronger than that thin Barca, wouldn't you agree)

Italy 2006 had to deal with Nesta's injury and DDR's suspension, as well as a Matteratzi sending off. (all players were replasible in that team within the team except Buffon and Pirlo, just as Messi and Xavi are very difficult to replace in Barca).

I also would give equal chances with Barca slightly favorites to win against that Inter at full squad.

Thank you all

by kiranr Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:53 am

Lord Spencer wrote:I did not want to get into this debate before making a comprehensive run using all my contacts over the middle east asking, which team do you remember most in the 70's?

(The statistic is with me here if any of you wants me to reproduce it, 3000 45+ male foorball fans where asked which team does he remember most, the 3000 were in Iraq, Saudi, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran,Kuwait, Qatar).

First of all, excellent post Spencer.

I dont want to rain on your parade, but i just want to focus on your point quoted above. There is a slight issue with the sample of the population that you have chosen. There is a significant sample bias as all the candidates are more or less from the same region. You could consider them to have relatively similar opinion.

The people from South America or Europe could have a significantly different opinion. Not saying they will, but they could and we can never know that as such a poll was not conducted.

Both Franchise and Beautiful_game are posting their opinions. Both of them do not have any significant facts and both were passing the opinions off as facts.

by Lord Spencer Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:01 am

Which is why I stated after that the culture and prefrence counts for how fondly you remember which team, which is why The Franchise's absolute "everyone remembers Holland more fondly" is false, which is what I set out to prove.

You ofcourse noted the south American bias, which is prevelent among te age group that lived in the 70's in the Middle East.

This statistic ofcourse does not reflect the opinion of the world, but does closely reflect the opinions of the Middle East, of which I hail from.

Thank for your compliment bro.

by kiranr Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:18 am

Lord Spencer wrote:Which is why I stated after that the culture and prefrence counts for how fondly you remember which team, which is why The Franchise's absolute "everyone remembers Holland more fondly" is false, which is what I set out to prove.

You ofcourse noted the south American bias, which is prevelent among te age group that lived in the 70's in the Middle East.

This statistic ofcourse does not reflect the opinion of the world, but does closely reflect the opinions of the Middle East, of which I hail from.

Thank for your compliment bro.

You had said you may find a similar opinion among fans in East Asia. I cannot speak for all of East Asia, but majority of the football fans that i know in India support Brazil, Argentina and Germany. Brazil, for obvious reasons and Argentina because of Maradona and Germany, because of their hardwork and general level of precision in their play.

But even though Holland have not won any world cup, football fans of all age groups, that i know, are aware of them and how they play and admire them too although they are not supported as fervently as the three teams that i mentioned above. I can safely say that not many are aware of the great Ajax team of the 70s.

by jibers Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:15 am

Germany for me play the best football, quick tempo, fats on the break. Why is Alex trolling so much? what happened to you bro?

by alexjanosik Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:00 pm

I agree with dani and his viewpoint.
Also his specific point about Holland and Germany.
Anyone who says that Germany 1974 are remembered more than Holland 1974 is a stupid revisionist.
WC 1974 was about Holland.Germany might have won but the legacy of the tournament was the Dutch and their magnificent Total football.

To beautiful game.
I can name plenty of teams that didnt win but still are considered all time great teams beacuse of the way they played football.
Classic examples would be the Magnificent Magyars led by the Galloping Major and Brazil 82.
Hngary lost against Germany in the 54 final but guess which is still talked about to this day.
Without looking up wikipedia name 1 German player from the 54 team.
You wont be able to.
And yet any decent football fan worth his salt will be able to name atleast 5 Hungarian players from that legendary team.
The likes of Czibor,Hidegkuti,Kozcis and ofcourse the Major himself.

Coming to Brazil 82,Italy won that year but they are not the most remembered team of that tournament.Its Brazil who are fondly remembered and people still talk about.
And thats because of the way they played.

Lastly I cant believe some of the posts on this thread,that winning is all that matters and that park the bus is beautiful.
Thats uetter BS.
Theres a reason football is the beautiful game.Theres a reason football is much more than a game and a reason why its by far the most followed game on the planet.
And with all due respect its not because THE PLACE WHICH CANT BE NAMED invented catenaccio or park the bus or THE PLACE WHICH CANT BE NAMED plays with 10 men behind the ball.

Football is all that because of teams like Brazil and Holland and Hungary and Ajax and Stoke and Barca.
Football is all that because of players like Pele and Maradona and Cruyff and Zico and Eusebio and Garrincha and Messi etc.

In short the Cruyff and Xavi way is what makes football the Beautiful Game as much as our revisionist friends would have us believe otherwise.

by Super_Floren Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:06 pm

Barca fans/players/coaches/refs: The only way to play football, is posession football, if youre able to stop this style, youre an antifootball and you deserve to lose.

Smart football supporters: Every single style is legit, Italy has won 4 world cups playing his style, Holland has won 0 playing Barcas style of football.

If attacking football should be protected, Real Madrid would have won 25 european cups when we were the example of attacking football and score goals.

by jibers Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:23 pm

Floren vs Alex, Let's get it on!

by The Madrid One Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:43 pm

Super_Floren wrote:Barca fans/players/coaches/refs: The only way to play football, is posession football, if youre able to stop this style, youre an antifootball and you deserve to lose.

Smart football supporters: Every single style is legit, Italy has won 4 world cups playing his style, Holland has won 0 playing Barcas style of football.

If attacking football should be protected, Real Madrid would have won 25 european cups when we were the example of attacking football and score goals.

by JAY-Z Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:55 pm

Different perceptions

by The Franchise Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:34 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:I did not want to get into this debate before making a comprehensive run using all my contacts over the middle east asking, which team do you remember most in the 70's?

(The statistic is with me here if any of you wants me to reproduce it, 3000 45+ male foorball fans where asked which team does he remember most, the 3000 were in Iraq, Saudi, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran,Kuwait, Qatar).

Whop de de do, Brazil 1970 gets the most votes, then Argentina of 1978 (no attractive football here) then Germany of 1974, then Italy of 1970.

Since club football was not well known outside of Europe, football fans looked mostly at WC matches, and the Gritty German teams is more fondly remembered than the Dutch. You may find similiar reaction in east Asia where respect for hardwork outmatches respect for glamour.

@The Franchise, don't pull opinions out of your hat and pretend they are hard boiled facts, and don't go around calling people stupid kids.

Jeez, for a role model, you sure act childish sometimes.

The Beutiful Game made excellent points on the effects of glory in perceiving fame.

FACT, winning matters.

I highly doubt the the total football team of the Dutch would have been remembere as fondly if not for the Ajax team. You can say that they are remembered more than Gemany all you want, but even if you ar right, it would be by a slight margain, and even though, you cannot say that they will be remembered if they did not win any trophies.

Allow me to sum this up:

1- Please stop introducing opinions as facts.
2- Respect other people's opinions.
Football related note:
3- Trophis that does not win anything are not rememberes in spite of their football.
4- Teams that win a lot are remembered in spite of their footballs.
5- People remember some teams more fondly than others basedon prefrence.

First thing first, lets get it out the way before we talk football.

You have an annoying habit of poking your nose in things that dont concern you. You did it previously I believe, claiming I insulted Iceman...I found it intresting he himself didnt have anything to say about what I said, but you did.

I question, what are you after? Everybody here is a big boy and can handle themselves. If anyone got a problem with what I say to them, come at me.

I called him an idioit, indirectly, because he was acting like one. Not that I need to explain what I say to you. So thanks for your concern about my maturity, but its fine, I dont need your lectures about behaviour.

As for football, fortunatly so I dont have to type so much, but unfortuantely because I did want to say it, Alex has expertly summed up basically what I would of said.

On the same not as he said, dont use wiki, people are going to struggle to name the German players vs the Dutch of total football, generally speaking. But they wont struggle as much to name those total football Dutchmen.

In 50 years time, I can assure you, people will struggle to name the Inter side that beat Barca 2 seasons ago...but they wont struggle to remember the Barca team. There is a reason for that.

Even today, in age of youtube and so on, that will still very likely be the case.

by the xcx Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:53 pm

Against barcelona? No.

by Lord Spencer Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:57 pm

The Franchise wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:I did not want to get into this debate before making a comprehensive run using all my contacts over the middle east asking, which team do you remember most in the 70's?

(The statistic is with me here if any of you wants me to reproduce it, 3000 45+ male foorball fans where asked which team does he remember most, the 3000 were in Iraq, Saudi, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran,Kuwait, Qatar).

Whop de de do, Brazil 1970 gets the most votes, then Argentina of 1978 (no attractive football here) then Germany of 1974, then Italy of 1970.

Since club football was not well known outside of Europe, football fans looked mostly at WC matches, and the Gritty German teams is more fondly remembered than the Dutch. You may find similiar reaction in east Asia where respect for hardwork outmatches respect for glamour.

@The Franchise, don't pull opinions out of your hat and pretend they are hard boiled facts, and don't go around calling people stupid kids.

Jeez, for a role model, you sure act childish sometimes.

The Beutiful Game made excellent points on the effects of glory in perceiving fame.

FACT, winning matters.

I highly doubt the the total football team of the Dutch would have been remembere as fondly if not for the Ajax team. You can say that they are remembered more than Gemany all you want, but even if you ar right, it would be by a slight margain, and even though, you cannot say that they will be remembered if they did not win any trophies.

Allow me to sum this up:

1- Please stop introducing opinions as facts.
2- Respect other people's opinions.
Football related note:
3- Trophis that does not win anything are not rememberes in spite of their football.
4- Teams that win a lot are remembered in spite of their footballs.
5- People remember some teams more fondly than others basedon prefrence.

First thing first, lets get it out the way before we talk football.

You have an annoying habit of poking your nose in things that dont concern you. You did it previously I believe, claiming I insulted Iceman...I found it intresting he himself didnt have anything to say about what I said, but you did.

I question, what are you after? Everybody here is a big boy and can handle themselves. If anyone got a problem with what I say to them, come at me.

I called him an idioit, indirectly, because he was acting like one. Not that I need to explain what I say to you. So thanks for your concern about my maturity, but its fine, I dont need your lectures about behaviour.

As for football, fortunatly so I dont have to type so much, but unfortuantely because I did want to say it, Alex has expertly summed up basically what I would of said.

On the same not as he said, dont use wiki, people are going to struggle to name the German players vs the Dutch of total football, generally speaking. But they wont struggle as much to name those total football Dutchmen.

In 50 years time, I can assure you, people will struggle to name the Inter side that beat Barca 2 seasons ago...but they wont struggle to remember the Barca team. There is a reason for that.

Even today, in age of youtube and so on, that will still very likely be the case.

My annoying habit is a response for your annoying habit of posting opinions as facts, supporting people who support you regardless of accuracy. (The Magical Hungarian team won the Olympics which was of high importance at the time, as well as register 12 world records, which in itself is a huge achievement in an era where not many cups exist).

It also is a response of your elitist dismissal of any opinion that does not agree with your own.

You can ask around about my posts, and you will see that nearly everyone agrees I post fair unbiased arguments.

You said that Alex, who called everyone that says the Germany team of 1974 is more fondly remembered than the Dutch is a Stupid Revisionist. Although it is not only my opinion but the fact, that outside of Europe and South America, people actually watch football, and those people who do not watch club football do not remember the Dutch team more than the German team, but the opposite.

Call me stupid or an idiot, or support people who do so, but you cannot alter facts, nor can you absolutely claim so and so are more remembered than so and so. Because sure as the sky, people remember the German team of 1974, in spite of your claims.

You continue daring people to name players from such teams without using wiki; but the same can be said of the Dutch team who I don't anyone from except Cruyff. Anyone can use wiki and claim he did not, including you.

Perception is a key word. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and you do not have the right to define what is beautiful, or disrespect what other people think is beautiful. Chess and Shogi are slow games, but are considered highly by many. Just as you don't have the right t disrespect people who play those games, you don't have the right to disrespect people who play football tactically.

And as for the Inter team, here is the names of the legends that won, I doubt they won't be remembered:
- Julio Ceasar (one of the top 3 brazillian keepers of all time).
- Lucio and Samuel (I doubt people will forget this amazing partnership)
- Zannetti (a serie a and Argentina legend)
- Stankovitch (another serie a semi legend and an Inter idol)
- Sneijder (perhaps will be the least remembered in this list)
- Eto (an African legend)
- Mourinho (you know why)

That team will be remembered in the minds of Inter and serie a fans for a long time.
The barca team will be remembered simply because they won more, not because of any revolution they did in football or anything.
Fact, they will not have been remembered at all if they won zilch. Just as Udinese and Arsenal who both play your idea of football will not be remembered outside of their fan base because they win nothing.

by Pedram Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:16 pm

Barca will be remembered by their habit of play-acting, crowding the referees not by playing "Beautiful football". tho it's not actually beautiful for all.

by baresi Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:18 pm

As a matter of fact Inter will be remembered more; when ever this "GREAT" barca team is mentioned it will also be mentioned that Inter with their new "Revoulutionary" tactics got past them.

by kiranr Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:27 pm

baresi wrote:As a matter of fact Inter will be remembered more; when ever this "GREAT" barca team is mentioned it will also be mentioned that Inter with their new "Revoulutionary" tactics got past them.

What revolutionary tactics did Inter use?

by The Madrid One Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:30 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:I did not want to get into this debate before making a comprehensive run using all my contacts over the middle east asking, which team do you remember most in the 70's?

(The statistic is with me here if any of you wants me to reproduce it, 3000 45+ male foorball fans where asked which team does he remember most, the 3000 were in Iraq, Saudi, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran,Kuwait, Qatar).

Whop de de do, Brazil 1970 gets the most votes, then Argentina of 1978 (no attractive football here) then Germany of 1974, then Italy of 1970.

Since club football was not well known outside of Europe, football fans looked mostly at WC matches, and the Gritty German teams is more fondly remembered than the Dutch. You may find similiar reaction in east Asia where respect for hardwork outmatches respect for glamour.

@The Franchise, don't pull opinions out of your hat and pretend they are hard boiled facts, and don't go around calling people stupid kids.

Jeez, for a role model, you sure act childish sometimes.

The Beutiful Game made excellent points on the effects of glory in perceiving fame.

FACT, winning matters.

I highly doubt the the total football team of the Dutch would have been remembere as fondly if not for the Ajax team. You can say that they are remembered more than Gemany all you want, but even if you ar right, it would be by a slight margain, and even though, you cannot say that they will be remembered if they did not win any trophies.

Allow me to sum this up:

1- Please stop introducing opinions as facts.
2- Respect other people's opinions.
Football related note:
3- Trophis that does not win anything are not rememberes in spite of their football.
4- Teams that win a lot are remembered in spite of their footballs.
5- People remember some teams more fondly than others basedon prefrence.

First thing first, lets get it out the way before we talk football.

You have an annoying habit of poking your nose in things that dont concern you. You did it previously I believe, claiming I insulted Iceman...I found it intresting he himself didnt have anything to say about what I said, but you did.

I question, what are you after? Everybody here is a big boy and can handle themselves. If anyone got a problem with what I say to them, come at me.

I called him an idioit, indirectly, because he was acting like one. Not that I need to explain what I say to you. So thanks for your concern about my maturity, but its fine, I dont need your lectures about behaviour.

As for football, fortunatly so I dont have to type so much, but unfortuantely because I did want to say it, Alex has expertly summed up basically what I would of said.

On the same not as he said, dont use wiki, people are going to struggle to name the German players vs the Dutch of total football, generally speaking. But they wont struggle as much to name those total football Dutchmen.

In 50 years time, I can assure you, people will struggle to name the Inter side that beat Barca 2 seasons ago...but they wont struggle to remember the Barca team. There is a reason for that.

Even today, in age of youtube and so on, that will still very likely be the case.

My annoying habit is a response for your annoying habit of posting opinions as facts, supporting people who support you regardless of accuracy. (The Magical Hungarian team won the Olympics which was of high importance at the time, as well as register 12 world records, which in itself is a huge achievement in an era where not many cups exist).

It also is a response of your elitist dismissal of any opinion that does not agree with your own.

You can ask around about my posts, and you will see that nearly everyone agrees I post fair unbiased arguments.

You said that Alex, who called everyone that says the Germany team of 1974 is more fondly remembered than the Dutch is a Stupid Revisionist. Although it is not only my opinion but the fact, that outside of Europe and South America, people actually watch football, and those people who do not watch club football do not remember the Dutch team more than the German team, but the opposite.

Call me stupid or an idiot, or support people who do so, but you cannot alter facts, nor can you absolutely claim so and so are more remembered than so and so. Because sure as the sky, people remember the German team of 1974, in spite of your claims.

You continue daring people to name players from such teams without using wiki; but the same can be said of the Dutch team who I don't anyone from except Cruyff. Anyone can use wiki and claim he did not, including you.

Perception is a key word. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and you do not have the right to define what is beautiful, or disrespect what other people think is beautiful. Chess and Shogi are slow games, but are considered highly by many. Just as you don't have the right t disrespect people who play those games, you don't have the right to disrespect people who play football tactically.

And as for the Inter team, here is the names of the legends that won, I doubt they won't be remembered:
- Julio Ceasar (one of the top 3 brazillian keepers of all time).
- Lucio and Samuel (I doubt people will forget this amazing partnership)
- Zannetti (a serie a and Argentina legend)
- Stankovitch (another serie a semi legend and an Inter idol)
- Sneijder (perhaps will be the least remembered in this list)
- Eto (an African legend)
- Mourinho (you know why)

That team will be remembered in the minds of Inter and serie a fans for a long time.
The barca team will be remembered simply because they won more, not because of any revolution they did in football or anything.
Fact, they will not have been remembered at all if they won zilch. Just as Udinese and Arsenal who both play your idea of football will not be remembered outside of their fan base because they win nothing.

in other words you are annoyed, because he thinks hes always right..

by InterMalia Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:33 pm

The be all end all beautiful football, how can't you see how beautiful it is? You're stupid, dumb and don't deserve a reply, jog it on if you don't agree.

by Albiceleste Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:26 pm

Super_Floren wrote:Barca fans/players/coaches/refs: The only way to play football, is posession football, if youre able to stop this style, youre an antifootball and you deserve to lose.

Smart football supporters: Every single style is legit, Italy has won 4 world cups playing his style, Holland has won 0 playing Barcas style of football.

If attacking football should be protected, Real Madrid would have won 25 european cups when we were the example of attacking football and score goals.

The xcx wrote:Against barcelona? No.

asspain detected.

by ChollaVille Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:33 pm

Barcelona is playng "real" football.
Tactics which are beautiful for eye Smile

by The Madrid One Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:42 pm

ChollaVille wrote:Barcelona is playng "real" football.
Tactics which are beautiful for eye

Is There A "Correct" Way To Play Football? - Page 12 Michael-What-the-office-10400786-400-226

by The Madrid One Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:36 pm

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/29/greece-euro-2004-tactics/

kind of exemplifies what i mean when i say tactical brilliance is #1 when going into the field. you can play nice and pretty but lose against a team that will adapt against anyone and anything.

it leaves you open for limit less possibilities and stops you from being so 1 dimensional-minded.

and that is why greece 2004 is the greatest team of the 2000s.

many people must say, you must be joking..! but in reality, the tactical brilliance exemplified the meaning of football.

THERE IS NO CORRECT WAY TO PLAY FOOTBALL, and as ironic as it may seem, what they did right there is as close to universal and complete football as it gets.

by The Madrid One Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:48 pm

also 1 of the reasons i tend to really point fingers at barcelona fans is at the fact that they always ramble about the fact that their football is the best because it is not only visually brilliant but tactically brilliant as well. and yes this combination makes their football very complete and very competitive and effective.

but with that comes arrogance and ignorance. johan cryuff being the main example, using the term anti-football at every opportunity, and basically the effect has been well documented. some of their members wasting countless of pages explaining why sexier football is more remembered bla bla bla, aka useless information.

when you cant really open your self up to all ways of play, you kind of close and reserve your philosophy as to how you play.

in a specific sitation lets say that there is a near unbeatable opponent, barca try to beat them and fail and realize that the only way to beat them is to play "anti-football", each and every barcelona player and fan would rather die and lose than to play that type of football, and that in my eyes is just limiting your self to something.

really surprises me how geniuses in football like cryuff can influence others into thinking in such a limited way in a sense.

people are of course entitled to their preference in how football looks, but you have to look at the bigger picture too.

THERE IS NO CORRECT WAY TO PLAY FOOTBALL.

DON'T BE PREJUDICE IN THAT SENSE.

JUST ENJOY IT.

end of thread./

by Rebaño Sagrado Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:48 pm

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

by rsinatra Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:05 am

this poll is too biased. a RM fan trying to feel good about the way his team plays.. when you write the "beautiful football"you make it sound as if beautiful football was only beautiful and had no tactics whatsoever.

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