Madrid tactical fail, but something to look at for the next meeting

Mamad wrote:Tactical fail? lmao. in first match, the fair result was 6-2 not 2-2. in second one, the fair result was a draw.

Mou is a Tactical Genius no matter what some Barca fans say. you hate him, but you can't question his Coaching ability with such nonsense.

Read the thread or dont post.

Yes, tactical fail. He made a mistake in making Carvalho come out from the back instead of Pepe.

alexjanosik wrote:
svt
We have basically prposed the same diea,that of playing the xtra midfielder.But our steup is a bit different.And I dont quite agree with your setup to counter the specific tactic of Stoke pressing us.
You have proposed 2 midfield lines of 2 to counter the pressing and here is why I think it would be a problem.
Xavi,Busquets,Iniesta and fab are all ball playing midfielders and playing them bunched up all close together would be a case of too many cooks spoiling the borth.They would get in each oother's way plus make it easier for Stoke to press us and close off space.
Thats why I think there should be 3 layers instaed of 3 to counter the pressing.The 4 ball playing midfielders would be spread out at a relative distance and thus not get in each other's way.They would also not be too far apart that the others cant find them.
Plus this way Stoke would have to cover a lot more ground thatn if it was just 2 layers.
Also having a diamond would create much better natural passing triangles.
I also dont think Messi should drop back as if he did there would be just 1 forward up against 3 Stoke defenders(assuming one of Pepe/Carvalho come up to pick up Messi).
So imo it would be better to play a diamond at the back instaed of 2 layers of 2 each.
Ofcourse I could be wrong and your method could be the more effective method.
What do you think?

Alex, great post! I think it'll most probably a mixture of the two due to the fluidity of the game. So by playing your three waves proposed, we would have something like the following:

---------------------Valdez-----------------------
---------------------------------------------------
----Puyol----------Busquets-----------Pique----
---------------------------------------------------
Alves-----------------Xavi-----------------Abidal
---------------------------------------------------
------------CM-----------------Iniesta-----------

However, I noticed one issue... RM did not press our CBs unlike what other teams have done in the pass. The issue I have with this is that if Mourinho is smart and does not press our CBs then he won't press Busquets while he is on their line but rather double team Xavi until Sergio pushes forward so we will still lack penetration and potentially won't feel the extra man advantage. Also in my opinion playing like this in pyramid formation between Puyol, Busquets, Pique and Xavi is a little inefficient with Valdez who can easily pass it from Puyol to Pique and forwards to Busquets/Xavi.

If we played:

---------------------Valdez-----------------------
-------Puyol-----------------------Pique---------
---------------------------------------------------
Alves----------Xavi---------Busi----------Abidal
---------------------------------------------------
--------CM------------------------Iniesta--------

I feel as though we would have the extra man advantage even when Madrid dont press our CBs. With two separate diamonds to pass through - we should have natural passing triangles just like piggy in the middle and should retain possession. To counter the lack of space I wouldn't let Iniesta and the second CM push much deeper past the half way line as that will clog the midfield. So with Xavi and Busi playing so close - the two best possession retainers in the world - and with 4 forward orientated passes around them (2 fullbacks and 2 cms around the half way line) we should have no problem penetrating the field. If Madrid double team them both then Iniesta and the second CM are both unmarked and Pique + Abidal and Alves can find them.

In terms of Messi I feel you are right. The only time I would want him to fall deep is to get closer to Pique when Alves, Xavi, Busi, Abidal, 2nd CM and Iniesta are all being marked tightly which is unlikely. We need him and our second attacker to stretch the defense away from their midfield and create space in the opponents half once we penetrate.

Tactically, as many haters may say otherwise, Pep has proven to be far superior tactically to Mou!

I'm eager to see Madrid playing with a high line and hard pressing anytime against us. IMO, we might have less posession and dominance when teams play this way, but we rarely lose or even draw, and a sound win is likier.

Actually, Madrid were very lucky not to be trashed in the second leg. It was 3-2, but Messi missed two one on ones vs. Casillas, when he would normally socre at least one of those, and Madrid's goals were 90% based on luck. A 4-1 would have been very possible.

Madrid is getting closer and closer using kung fu skills, only player that plays normally is benzema. he got brain, ozil also but ozil has no stamina. other than that they look like headless chickens running fouling shooting fighting. I like Xabi Alonso, he is not a dirty player, but all his tackles ends with no success, he is like a hockey player, always slipping. he makes fouls but he is not fighting with referee.

-----------------Valdez
-----Masche-----------------Abidal
Alves-------Xavi-------Keita-------Adriano
-------Messi--------------Iniesta
Pedro-----------------------------Villa-------

This is the formation i saw most of the match, with Xavi dropping very deep at times to receive the ball. Porto was pressing very high up the pitch with as many as 5 players.

Messi and Iniesta were playing closer to Pedro and Villa rather than Xavi and Keita and you could see Messi and Iniesta dropping back to assist in building the play from the back.

The point is, this is pretty much close to what svt suggested. Of course Xavi dropped deeper than Keita to receive the ball, but even when Barcelona had the ball in the middle of the park, the players were maintaining this shape.

I have a question for you guys. Do you think starting Keita over Busquets is Pep's admission that Busquets cannot deal with forward pressing?

kiranr wrote:Do you think starting Keita over Busquets is Pep's admission that Busquets cannot deal with forward pressing?

No I don't really think so. Instead I am inclined to agree a little more with the fanciful view that Pep wants to flood the pitch with midfielders. Every season Pep likes making some tactical innovations and this season will be no different. I think he has taken it upon himself to make a quality DM out of Keita and a quality CB out of Busquets. I guess we will see them play like that quite often during the next few days.

Busi cant deal with pressing?

Thats news to me to be honest.

He is as composed as anybody in the squad, I mean anybody.

In his early days he could be pressed and it cause a problem, but he has learnt what he can and cant get away with and uses his body very well.

Not sure if previously posted:

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/08/28/guardian-team-of-midfielders/

Omniscient wrote:Not sure if previously posted:

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/08/28/guardian-team-of-midfielders/

Another article which says that it really is true that Guardiola intends to use midfielders all over the pitch including defense and forward positions.

Also TF was right on the money when he created a thread askins about DMs being turned into CBs.

billionmillion wrote:Madrid is getting closer and closer using kung fu skills, only player that plays normally is benzema. he got brain, ozil also but ozil has no stamina. other than that they look like headless chickens running fouling shooting fighting. I like Xabi Alonso, he is not a dirty player, but all his tackles ends with no success, he is like a hockey player, always slipping. he makes fouls but he is not fighting with referee.

and kaka.