How Much better is Spain's second team compared to England's first team ?

Germany 2nd team is also better than English first team, Say for example Germany 5th choice Goalkeeper = Hart, this is as a result of too many foreign players in EPL, over hyping some Mediocre English players and lack of youth Academy.

EPL is killing English National team and the F.A needs to address this or they should think of nationalising Foreign players, there is no shame in it, France, Dutch, Portugal and Germany does it all the time.

Another thing one of my English friend brought to my notice is that in Spain you have Barcelona and Madrid that produce most of their national players from either youth academy or have played in one of the team for a long time, which makes the national team chemistry very good and also in Germany you have Bayern Munich that produce most of their National team players from their youth academy or have been in Bayern for a long time, or once played played for Bayern, which also make the team chemistry and team understanding good..

But in England the players are scattered everywhere.

Uhm, it's nowhere near as drastic as that?

EPL young talents off the top of my head:

Wilshere
McEachran
Henderson
Gibbs
Jones
Smalling
Sturridge
Lansbury
Richards
Rodwell
Afobe
Aneke
Walker
Albrighton
Shelvey
Kelly
Wickham

Stop being a drama queen

Another thing one of my English friend brought to my notice is that in Spain you have Barcelona and Madrid that produce most of their national players from either youth academy or have played in one of the team for a long time, which makes the national team chemistry very good and also in Germany you have Bayern Munich that produce most of their National team players from their youth academy or have been in Bayern for a long time, or once played played for Bayern, which also make the team chemistry and team understanding good..

But in England the players are scattered everywhere.

That's because up until recently, clubs could only sign kids who lived up to a certain distance away for their academies. So kids from Mersyside would only be to sign for Mersyside clubs, kids from North London would only be able to sign for North London clubs and so on.

This resulted in a much more even distribution of talent and instead of having one or two clubs that produced the best of English talent, there were several: Manchester United, Liverpool, West Ham, Southampton, Leeds United... just to name a few. And in recent times Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester City and even Spurs have top-notch academies.

The more even distribution of talent is actually a good thing, and I know several people are not happy that new rules are coming in which will allows kids to go to anywhere. So now all the best academies can sign the best talent from anywhere in the country. I think the effect it has the national team is over-estimated, because it's not very often that nations can draw upon so much talent from one club. Barcelona have produced some talent that they won't produce again in a long time, and Spain are benefitting from that. It's more of a coincedence than a solution.

Iceman wrote:Uhm, it's nowhere near as drastic as that?

EPL young talents off the top of my head:

Wilshere
McEachran
Henderson
Gibbs
Jones
Smalling
Sturridge
Lansbury
Richards
Rodwell
Afobe
Aneke
Walker
Albrighton
Shelvey
Kelly
Wickham

Stop being a drama queen

The question is more - will they actually get playing time? Okay, I read that 4 of the youngsters finally get their first cap (hopefully), but somehow Capello most of the time falls back into the pattern "play it safe, play the big names". And if the youngsters get a pasting from Spain - will they be able to survive it or will the English boulevard press rip them apart and destroy any selfworth and confidence they have? It wouldn't be the first time that happens, and the danger is great, especially when they play at home in Wembley.

Iceman wrote:Uhm, it's nowhere near as drastic as that?

EPL young talents off the top of my head:

Wilshere
McEachran
Henderson
Gibbs
Jones
Smalling
Sturridge
Lansbury
Richards
Rodwell
Afobe
Aneke
Walker
Albrighton
Shelvey
Kelly
Wickham

Stop being a drama queen

You can not compare them, to the list below this are young talent that Loew have called up already for the national team and they are all important first team players for their club, playing matches everyday in top flight.

Ron-Robert Zieler
Marc-André ter Stegen
Marcel Schmelzer
Benedikt Höwedes
Mats Hummels
Holger Badstuber
Jérôme Boateng
Mesut Özil
André Schürrle
Thomas Müller
Toni Kroos
Mario Götze
Marco Reus
Lars Bender
Sven Bender
İlkay Gündoğan
Sebastian Rudy
Lewis Holtby
Kevin Großkreutz
Marko Marin

@Rwo:

He said that EPL is "killing" the NT. Out of the players I mentioned, these ones are getting first team action weekly in the EPL when they are fit:
Rodwell
Richards
Wilshere
Sturridge
Albrighton
Jones/Smalling
Henderson
Wickham
Walker
Gibbs

Some of the rest are either playing in lower leagues or the reserves, but the majority are playing in the EPL.

As for your point, I agree with you. The media pressure is staggering. That was the main problem with most Arsenal fans when Jack started playing for the NT - That he would get crushed if he didn't perform well. The media love to blame everything on the youngsters/new faces when England lose.
The whole setup on the senior level does not help any youngsters prove their worth or get a fair chance; however, if you take a look at the U-21, it's a completely different story. They are actually doing extremely well, and are one of the more talented sides. The problem is in the transition from the U-21 to the big team. That's where it all goes wrong.

Edit* Can't believe I forgot to name Alex Oxlade Chamberlain

rwo power wrote:The question is more - will they actually get playing time? Okay, I read that 4 of the youngsters finally get their first cap (hopefully), but somehow Capello most of the time falls back into the pattern "play it safe, play the big names". And if the youngsters get a pasting from Spain - will they be able to survive it or will the English boulevard press rip them apart and destroy any selfworth and confidence they have? It wouldn't be the first time that happens, and the danger is great, especially when they play at home in Wembley.

I can hardly blame Capello for falling back into his tried and trusted methods because this is his last year in charge. As soon as the Euro's are over, he's gone. He has no reason to commit to any long term project that might benefit the national team in the long run.

The fans are demmanding that more and more fresh talent is blooded into the team, so I don't think they or the media would be too disappointed if a young player comes in and doesn't do too well. The reason why these players don't get called up isn't necessarily Capello's fault (though the glaring omission of Micah Richards in this recent squad is inexcusible), but rather the club's fault for not giving these players enough time in the league. Clubs are more focused on bringing in foreign talent for cheap prices than playing their own English talent.

In fact, the only clubs that focus on their own English talent and use them in this first team set-ups are the lower division clubs, but this creates a new set of problems. As these talents perform well, they attract interest from the Premier League clubs, who then buy them, stick them in the reserves and never play them. This kid then gets tossed about the lower leagues on loan and eventually sold to a lower league club.

It's all one big convoluted cycle; kid does well, kid gets brought by PL team, kid is blocked off by foreign talent, kid doesn't develop, kid never players for national side, kid gets sold to lower league team.

Iceman wrote:@Rwo:

He said that EPL is "killing" the NT. Out of the players I mentioned, these ones are getting first team action weekly in the EPL when they are fit:
Rodwell
Richards
Wilshere
Sturridge
Albrighton
Jones/Smalling
Henderson
Wickham
Walker
Gibbs

Some of the rest are either playing in lower leagues or the reserves, but the majority are playing in the EPL.

As for your point, I agree with you. The media pressure is staggering. That was the main problem with most Arsenal fans when Jack started playing for the NT - That he would get crushed if he didn't perform well. The media love to blame everything on the youngsters/new faces when England lose.
The whole setup on the senior level does not help any youngsters prove their worth or get a fair chance; however, if you take a look at the U-21, it's a completely different story. They are actually doing extremely well, and are one of the more talented sides. The problem is in the transition from the U-21 to the big team. That's where it all goes wrong.

Edit* Can't believe I forgot to name Alex Oxlade Chamberlain

Check out my list, you will see what I am talking about, except for Wilshere no player in your list can boast of regular call up with English National team, (Mind you Wilshere has on 5 caps, his not even that important)

Unlike most players in my list like, Muller(23cap 8goals), Kroos(21cap 1goal), Oezil(28cap 7Goals), Gotze(10cap 2Goals), Howedes(5cap), Badstuber(16cap), Hummels(10cap), Boateng(17), André Schürrle(10caps 5Goals) Marin(16cap 1 goal) etc

They are all important national team and club players, some of them have played in World Cup with the best of the best(Group stage, Semi Final & 3d place) Champions League (Final, Semi Final etc), Europa cup.

Also they are most likely to play in the up coming European Cup and Champions league, maybe even play in CPL Final(Oezil, Muller, Kroos, Badstuber,)

I hope you get the difference between my list and yours, my consist of proven talent playing at top level, while yours consist of unproven young players with potentials who play in reserve or division 2(except for few)

Not only does Germany have the best players in the world, they also have the best goalkeepers. I won't even talk about King Neuer here. Not 1 country has so many great keepers Germany has.

Ron Robert Zieler
Ter Stegen
Faehrmann
Leno
Baumann
Wiese
Adler
etc, etc

Germany also have the best defenders in Europe. 2nd being Portugal, 3rd Italy. A Cheese ridden country called HOLLAND had to NATURALIZE a BRAZILIAN because their defense looks like this:



I won't even talk about Germany's offense.

FC_Hollywood wrote:Not only does Germany have the best players in the world, they also have the best goalkeepers. I won't even talk about King Neuer here. Not 1 country has so many great keepers Germany has.

Ron Robert Zieler
Ter Stegen
Faehrmann
Leno
Baumann
Wiese
Adler
etc, etc

Germany also have the best defenders in Europe. 2nd being Portugal, 3rd Italy. A Cheese ridden country called HOLLAND had to NATURALIZE a BRAZILIAN because their defense looks like this:



I won't even talk about Germany's offense.

Spain, France, Serbia and Belgium also have very good defense.

I will put France as the best followed by Spain, Germany, Italy. I agree Germany defense is highly under-rated on paper because it consist of up coming talent.

As for the Goalkeeper thing Germany has always produce some of the best Goalkeepers, also I will like to use this opportunity to show some respect to one of my favorite Spanish player Santiago Cañizares a legendary Goalkeeper who doesn't get much praises that he deserves.

FC_Hollywood wrote:Not only does Germany have the best players in the world, they also have the best goalkeepers. I won't even talk about King Neuer here. Not 1 country has so many great keepers Germany has.

Ron Robert Zieler
Ter Stegen
Faehrmann
Leno
Baumann
Wiese
Adler
etc, etc.

You forgot Ulreich and Unnerstall

BTW, for now I would even take out Adler from that list as he is still injured and it seems he won't play again before December. And even then he will have to contest the starting place at Leverkusen with Bernd Leno who is pretty brilliant currently.

Oh, and I wouldn't call Wiese oder Adler "talents" anymore - they are already "a bit older" (lol) and don't really fit into the crop of exceptionally talented kids who are all 19-22.

@FC Hollywood: The Germans on the other hand have never naturalised anyone.



Spain's team, from the first to the 'third' if you like are all quite capable of capturing Del Bosque's style, however England has lacked a homogenous style to unite its talent and players have either been too similar, too diverse or simply incapable of performing at the highest levels.

There's no shame in being inferior to such a team, however in the end, you can only field 11 players. I still believe using Rooney as Forlan is used for Uruguay could have reaped excellent results in the short term, however it will probably help England that Capello will need to find another way.

rwo power wrote:

FC_Hollywood wrote:Not only does Germany have the best players in the world, they also have the best goalkeepers. I won't even talk about King Neuer here. Not 1 country has so many great keepers Germany has.

Ron Robert Zieler
Ter Stegen
Faehrmann
Leno
Baumann
Wiese
Adler
etc, etc.

You forgot Ulreich and Unnerstall

BTW, for now I would even take out Adler from that list as he is still injured and it seems he won't play again before December. And even then he will have to contest the starting place at Leverkusen with Bernd Leno who is pretty brilliant currently.

Oh, and I wouldn't call Wiese oder Adler "talents" anymore - they are already "a bit older" (lol) and don't really fit into the crop of exceptionally talented kids who are all 19-22.

I think he was talking about Germany Goalkeepers in general, maybe in reference to the argument above that Germany 5th choice Goalkeeper is better than Hart

Neuer is Germany's only keeper better than Hart.

Idrisozet wrote:

Iceman wrote:@Rwo:

He said that EPL is "killing" the NT. Out of the players I mentioned, these ones are getting first team action weekly in the EPL when they are fit:
Rodwell
Richards
Wilshere
Sturridge
Albrighton
Jones/Smalling
Henderson
Wickham
Walker
Gibbs

Some of the rest are either playing in lower leagues or the reserves, but the majority are playing in the EPL.

As for your point, I agree with you. The media pressure is staggering. That was the main problem with most Arsenal fans when Jack started playing for the NT - That he would get crushed if he didn't perform well. The media love to blame everything on the youngsters/new faces when England lose.
The whole setup on the senior level does not help any youngsters prove their worth or get a fair chance; however, if you take a look at the U-21, it's a completely different story. They are actually doing extremely well, and are one of the more talented sides. The problem is in the transition from the U-21 to the big team. That's where it all goes wrong.

Edit* Can't believe I forgot to name Alex Oxlade Chamberlain

Check out my list, you will see what I am talking about, except for Wilshere no player in your list can boast of regular call up with English National team, (Mind you Wilshere has on 5 caps, his not even that important)

Unlike most players in my list like, Muller(23cap 8goals), Kroos(21cap 1goal), Oezil(28cap 7Goals), Gotze(10cap 2Goals), Howedes(5cap), Badstuber(16cap), Hummels(10cap), Boateng(17), André Schürrle(10caps 5Goals) Marin(16cap 1 goal) etc

They are all important national team and club players, some of them have played in World Cup with the best of the best(Group stage, Semi Final & 3d place) Champions League (Final, Semi Final etc), Europa cup.

Also they are most likely to play in the up coming European Cup and Champions league, maybe even play in CPL Final(Oezil, Muller, Kroos, Badstuber,)

I hope you get the difference between my list and yours, my consist of proven talent playing at top level, while yours consist of unproven young players with potentials who play in reserve or division 2(except for few)

Uhm, what does this have to do with the EPL though? The general consensus is that England need to start using their young players and start incorporating them into the International side, and I never argued otherwise.

Firstly, MOST of the players on my list are playing in the EPL. Only a few of them aren't. You depicted it as the other way around, which is false.
Secondly, a lot of the players that I listed have either already played in the CL or are bound to play in it (Introducing Jack Wilshere, Daniel Sturridge, Micah Richards, Alex Oxlade Chamberlain, Gibbs, Smalling, Jones, Walker)
My list has about as many talented players who have been playing at the top level as yours does; You just don't see it.

Your original statement was that the EPL is what's holding the NT back, which is simply not true at all.

Edit** Well, not "at all", because there is some truth in it since the reserves league isn't that competitive at all but the EPL is not the main cause of any issue.

EarlyPrototype wrote:Neuer is Germany's only keeper better than Hart.

Does that mean Hart=Casilas

dostoevsky wrote:Spain's team, from the first to the 'third' if you like are all quite capable of capturing Del Bosque's style, however England has lacked a homogenous style to unite its talent and players have either been too similar, too diverse or simply incapable of performing at the highest levels.

Yeah, that thing is what both Spain and Germany do both exceptionally well nowadays - having a proper game plan and using that from youth to the seniors.

I think this is something the English FA should consider to implement, too - but it seems at the moment they have no real clue what style of play they would want for England in the first place.

Idrisozet wrote:

EarlyPrototype wrote:Neuer is Germany's only keeper better than Hart.

Does that mean Hart=Casilas

Even if Neuer is better than Casillias are you saying all other keepers are the same lmao?

Idrisozet wrote:I think he was talking about Germany Goalkeepers in general, maybe in reference to the argument above that Germany 5th choice Goalkeeper is better than Hart

Oh, true. But it is obvious that even our crop of goalkeeper youngsters is pretty outstanding for their age - we don't even need Wiese, Adler or Weidenfeller to compete.

BTW, it looks as if Zieler (22) gets his first cap now against Ukraine!

rwo power wrote:

dostoevsky wrote:Spain's team, from the first to the 'third' if you like are all quite capable of capturing Del Bosque's style, however England has lacked a homogenous style to unite its talent and players have either been too similar, too diverse or simply incapable of performing at the highest levels.

Yeah, that thing is what both Spain and Germany do both exceptionally well nowadays - having a proper game plan and using that from youth to the seniors.

I think this is something the English FA should consider to implement, too - but it seems at the moment they have no real clue what style of play they would want for England in the first place.

Completely agree. They're stuck between hoof-ball and passing it around. No real style.

rwo power wrote:

dostoevsky wrote:Spain's team, from the first to the 'third' if you like are all quite capable of capturing Del Bosque's style, however England has lacked a homogenous style to unite its talent and players have either been too similar, too diverse or simply incapable of performing at the highest levels.

Yeah, that thing is what both Spain and Germany do both exceptionally well nowadays - having a proper game plan and using that from youth to the seniors.

I think this is something the English FA should consider to implement, too - but it seems at the moment they have no real clue what style of play they would want for England in the first place.

Definitely, though it will be an unusually brave move to invest in such an idea without a clear direction first for the national team and a lot of that will come down to the next coach. Investment must be in a style that the coaches hired by the FA are comfortable implementing and are comfortable tampering with in training to get the best out of the team, however uncertainty over the coaching staff or simply inflexibility in their eventual choice could make the plan futile. Coaching in England has to grow at the same time as the idea, so it truly is a ten or twelve year solution which will yield results as Germany and Spain have found, however as I said, it was a brave decision. Whether England have the patience is another matter entirely however. Realistically, I believe that the existing talent pool will simply be pointed to in order to justify the status quo, however eventually administration of talent on the most basic levels will need to change as well.

Iceman wrote:Completely agree. They're stuck between hoof-ball and passing it around. No real style.

I really wonder if it is possible in England to get all the PL coaches at one round table (actually, that should be possible in England - thinking of King Arthur XD) and discuss what they would like to play like to figure out some style everybody can agree with. I mean, it worked in Germany, why shouldn't it work in England, too?

The FA need to hire a coach with a philosophy that can be implemented. With the kind of young midfielders that are coming through the ranks, England have a lot of choices really. They could go with a technical side consisting of Wilshere, McEachran and Henderson in midfield, or a rugby style side with <insert name of any Stoke player here> lol.

And when I say philosophy, I can't help but think of Wenger

Niel Warnock :dance:

rwo power wrote:

Iceman wrote:Completely agree. They're stuck between hoof-ball and passing it around. No real style.

I really wonder if it is possible in England to get all the PL coaches at one round table (actually, that should be possible in England - thinking of King Arthur XD) and discuss what they would like to play like to figure out some style everybody can agree with. I mean, it worked in Germany, why shouldn't it work in England, too?

I think the diversity in style in the league is great. When you have such a technical team like Arsenal and a team like Stoke in the same league, it's entertaining to watch.
What needs to be done is to get a coach who will know what needs to be done. A coach who can assess the players and play with a style that would suit England. Or, the FA can assess the players themselves without bias (lol), and then pick a coach that would implement a style and philosophy that suite the team.

IMHO, the U-21 have done that. They've implemented a philosophy and are still building on it, but you can see that they have a definite style and are doing very well. At least the players look like they know what they're doing, instead of looking like a bunch of players thrown together into one big mess on the pitch

dostoevsky wrote:Definitely, though it will be an unusually brave move to invest in such an idea without a clear direction first for the national team and a lot of that will come down to the next coach. Investment must be in a style that the coaches hired by the FA are comfortable implementing and are comfortable tampering with in training to get the best out of the team, however uncertainty over the coaching staff or simply inflexibility in their eventual choice could make the plan futile. Coaching in England has to grow at the same time as the idea, so it truly is a ten or twelve year solution which will yield results as Germany and Spain have found, however as I said, it was a brave decision. Whether England have the patience is another matter entirely however. Realistically, I believe that the existing talent pool will simply be pointed to in order to justify the status quo, however eventually administration of talent on the most basic levels will need to change as well.

Indeed. I guess that is the main problem.

Germany and Spain were actually specially cases in that. Spain had the time for a long term plan as no one really expected them to do well in any case (they were known as tournament chokers for a long time after all) , and so they had all the time in the world to live with draw backs and not so good games in the beginning. Germany on the other hand never really failed, no matter how bad the players and problematic the beginnings of the new system - I mean, they were always 2nd or 3rd in WC and EC, even when they had neither plan nor players XD

England has the problem that press and fans always expect them to win for some reason. Of course they usually choked early, but for some strange reason that never hindered the press/fans to expect their team to be world beaters anyway. I think that expectation needs to be changed - they should be given time for development even if things do now run so well right away.