Formation and Tactics

Talk to Allegri, we have been saying there needs to be a change in formation for a while now

We have 99 problems but formation aint one.

Anyone want to tell me how NO ONE literally NO ONE has been tried at left back this season besides Antonini????????????? AWWWWW I hate him so much

Milantildeath wrote:Anyone want to tell me how NO ONE literally NO ONE has been tried at left back this season besides Antonini????????????? AWWWWW I hate him so much

NO ONE like? Mesbah? Emmanuelson? Injured Villa?
Antonini is our best option..... Sadly.

baresi wrote:We have 99 problems but formation aint one.

i agree with baresi. management is the obvious one, but allegri as well. with him on helm, or ever since, milan hasnt gone for any technical, visionary or creative players. i have been saying this over and over again and let me rephrase again, this milan lacks quality, this side lacks players with brain. we have so many mediocre players, and worst of it, we have too many workrate, physical and defensive minded players than creative players, its pretty obvious milan will struggle.

30 squad players and pretty much no quality in the team... no matter what formation allegri players, result will be the same.

so i question f... kin braida more than galliani. he is the one who is the main man of assessing every players, before they are brought. during the times of leonardo we mostly went for technically gifted players. now its not the same, with braida.

baresi wrote:We have 99 problems but formation aint one.

if we build it, they will cum

I agree with the 3-5-2. We need to do something drastically in midfield and use the width better. We have 2 players who would fit in well playing as WLB and WRB. Just hope Abate gets well soon.

4-3-1-2 is getting useless with zero creativity!

Formation is a problem. You cant play Urby in am or 3 central mf position,when he is a natural winger.Cant play Boateng in am position ,he aint one. He doesnt have the vision or the technique. Antonini isnt a lb , its better to have 3 cb and Urby on the left wing than having 2 cb and two full backs. 352 can fix these problems.

after thinking about this a lot, i agree with eivindo redblacklegion



-------------------------Abbiati
-------------Mexes----Zapata----Acerbi

Abate-------Monty------- KB-------De Jong---------Urby
---------------------------

--------------El Sharawwy-------Pazzini

boateng should do well as b2b, by recent lack of performance from boateng, it would be better off starting nocerino than him because against Anderlect nocerino was doing good job providing some dangerous crosses and passes than sulking boateng

I was the one who started the 3-5-2 idea in goal legacy for milan

i want a midfield of monto boateng and nocerino. Monto the pirlo role boateng the vidal role and nocerino the marchisio role.

But where does De Jong fit in all of this is the question

De jong for depth

3-5-2 isn't an easy formation to implement. It takes practice, a lot of practice. Any formation with 3 at the back requires the players and the back three especially to have really high concentration levels. Anything less than that and it becomes counter productive.

Also wingbacks need to be good, like really really good at both attacking and tracking back. Otherwise the formation becomes to narrow.

You need a full pre-season to work on it and even then it might take a while before it works completely. However when 3-5-2 works it works very well.

We don't have the pieces for a 3-5-2 . First of all we have no leader in defense , and even if we had one it still would be terrible ... Neither do we have the fullbacks to do the job , while Abate might run like a horse he isnt doing anything productive when going up front ...

like zealous and pusha says that is kind of a worries i have with 3-5-2 or 3 man defense from ages ago. i want this system to be tried but i am also worried with all the things u both mentioned. first of all, we dont have top CBs... last year we had mexes silva nesta and i would have absolutely loved for that to happen. with mexes zapata acerbi yepes and bonera, u can feel vulnerability. and with 3 men in the middle with 2 wingbacks supporting them in the flank, they absolutely cant afford to make cheap mistakes because they are the only protection in the middle, otherwise we are breached, and heavily exposed. with 3 men of montolivo and say boateng and nocerino they have to work very hard to defend and make a timely attack at the same time. they cant just scatter all over and do individual stuffs.... namely like boateng does or even nocerino does at times when he press too forward to score goals.
on wingbacks im not worried much about abate but he should be reliable in attacking sense more, while emanuelson should be good in defending sense, both quite the opposite, abate and emauelson.

on forwards im not worried that much, because we need to have robinho and pato.

main issues is with midfield bar montolivo we dont have a team player.. thats a problem.

anyway i wish to see this system tried out for few small games and see how it works, because we havent seen them playing.

3-5-2 was successful for juve because everyone worked very hard, they have a team players with good technical abilities in midfield like pirlo vidal marchisio and their wingbacks are very reliable going forward and defending, with pretty good CBs. same cant be said for this milan side.

I agree with u jespwe, but with the tools we have its better to play with wingers(4231 other option). With the players in our team even with 12 players on the field we cant do what Juve , or Napoli(last year)was doing.

JespSwe wrote:like zealous and pusha says that is kind of a worries i have with 3-5-2 or 3 man defense from ages ago. i want this system to be tried but i am also worried with all the things u both mentioned. first of all, we dont have top CBs... last year we had mexes silva nesta and i would have absolutely loved for that to happen. with mexes zapata acerbi yepes and bonera, u can feel vulnerability. and with 3 men in the middle with 2 wingbacks supporting them in the flank, they absolutely cant afford to make cheap mistakes because they are the only protection in the middle, otherwise we are breached, and heavily exposed. with 3 men of montolivo and say boateng and nocerino they have to work very hard to defend and make a timely attack at the same time. they cant just scatter all over and do individual stuffs.... namely like boateng does or even nocerino does at times when he press too forward to score goals.
on wingbacks im not worried much about abate but he should be reliable in attacking sense more, while emanuelson should be good in defending sense, both quite the opposite, abate and emauelson.

on forwards im not worried that much, because we need to have robinho and pato.

main issues is with midfield bar montolivo we dont have a team player.. thats a problem.

anyway i wish to see this system tried out for few small games and see how it works, because we havent seen them playing.

3-5-2 was successful for juve because everyone worked very hard, they have a team players with good technical abilities in midfield like pirlo vidal marchisio and their wingbacks are very reliable going forward and defending, with pretty good CBs. same cant be said for this milan side.

Juve are not the only team in Serie A utilizing this formation. Several team with overall lower skill levels have been pretty successfull with it, mainly Udinese and Napoli. Quite honestly Napolis back 3 are not that exceptional, nor with Udineses. Juve might use a 3-5-2, but the way Conte has it flowing cant be compared with any other club. They really dominate the ball with possession and are extremely well organized.

The 3-5-2 can also be used to drop back into a defensive"5-3-2" and open teams back up with a quick move on the counter and become the "3-5-2". Definsevely its solid because when defending you should have a wall of 5 at the back. As far as players not tracking back? The very notion of that is absurd. If im Allegri and my fullback is not tracking back like ive asked him too then he is simply not playing. A coach in control of his team shouldnt have an issue with players not doing their job.

Also, Prandelli was able to have Italy in a 3-5-2 for the euros in less than a month. It can be done it just takes a lot of work and dedication. Probably would be a good solution for this team, but im not sure Allegri can get that work out of his team.

milan to play in 4 3 2 1 against udine with boa on the bench and urby behind pazzini

With so much focus on youth, we are starting to see players grow right in front of our eyes. When was the last time you have seen 18 and 19 year old's staring for Milan? Only now we get to realize that we aren't as bad as what we think. We are young. I personally don't like Allegri and think that Tassotti should take over, which might happen. Maybe even guardiola. I firmly believe all the youth that gets injected into Milan is Tassotti taking over and telling Allegri to play the more talented younger players.

This is Allegri's "ideal" Milan.

----------------------Abbiati
Abate---------Mexes---------Bonera---------Antonini

---------------------Ambrosini
---------------Nocerino------De Jong

--Prince-----------------------------------Urby
-----------------------Pato

While this would be more along the lines of Tassotti with the players we have now

----------------------Abbiati
Abate--------Mexes------------Zapata---------De Sciglio

----------------------De Jong
---------------Prince----------Montolivo

------------Robinho-----------------SES
------------------------Pato

Think of in the near future once players like Innocenti, Calvano, Comi, and Ely become worthy of Milan. I think Tassotti would put them in the 11 and show what we all know they can do. I seriously believe this Milan can become great in a couple years. Allegri was right about one thing though, it's going to take a while to build.

Tassotti future Milan, Inzaghi assistant

-----------------------New GK
Abate------------Ely-----------Zapata------------De Sciglio

----------------------Innocenti
--------------Montolivo--------Prince

-------Pato-------------------------------SES
-----------------------Niang

The sooner youth are promoted, the better this Milan will become. De Sciglio already has Antonini's spot sewn up. It's only a matter of time before Ely is promoted, followed by a new mid, maybe followed by a new GK, and lastly a new striker. It remains to be seen whether Gabriel, Inncoenti and Niang are those players. I think Strasser will get in before Innocenti does in CM. With Prince's form dwindling, it's only a matter of time before he's axed.

You know who I completely forgot? Bryan Cristante, he will be the defensive mid over both Strasser and Innocenti.

I thought Cristante wasn't in the 1st team yet?

I had some doubts over our youth but after mds and ses started performing like they are ATM,we should realize it's time to inject these players in.The one thing we should buy though is a good cb,I hope mbiwa comes next season.

I've merged the "Change the Formation" and "Realistic Future?" threads with this one so that we can maintain continuity concerning our tactical discussions and also given the relevance of giving game time to our youth players to our current season.

The insinuation that Allegri's ideal Milan would leave out Montolivo and El Shaarawy is ridiculous, there's absolutely no evidence by which to distinguish between Allegri and Tassotti as coaches and what substantial changes we might witness under a managerial change. Needless to say, despite the progress of two of our youngsters, we will likely still look to the market for further solutions, which complicates any prediction we might make about how the squad will be further bolstered. Most of the youngsters we have sent off on loan have not been given opportunities to return, and most of us are still unfamiliar with the current Primavera.

I think El Shaarawy and De Sciglio are the solutions, it's other areas in which we need the "solution". First thing that comes to my head is Goalkeeper and center back. I really like Montolivo and believe he will be here for a long time. We really don't have a bad team at all. For me if Pato can stay healthy and Zapata can play with continuity then we will at least make the champions league. It's apparent though, we need another great center back and someone to replace Abbiati. I really like Mirante from Parma, probably the most underrated goalkeeper on planet earth.

Agreed Milantilldeath. Abbiati has been really bad. We need a very creative am and a cb to make this team competitive. Oh i forgot and a proper coach.

Before i say anything.. Casciavit , sorry man i couldn't help myself , your first lineup in this thread made me chuckle , seriously The amount of wrong in it is absurd Though i get at the time things were different.. anyway , i am sure you can do better than that

Now to the point. Let's have a good look at the formations . Whilst our possesion and defensive tactics can't possibly change , there are reports which suggest that Berlusconi demanded Allegri to go back in the 4-1-2-1-2 formation , mainly because his football knowledge doesn't go beyond formations and star players .

Whilst i am no Van Gaal or any tactical mastermind , it's not that absurd of an idea , actualy , just put aside for a moment it came from Silvio lol. I've read some bits here and there about how the 4-2-3-1 and the 4-3-3 are pretty much the same , when in reality that's not true , if i were to be cynic , well not even close really.

The only system which is very much alike next to the 4-3-3 , is the 4-1-2-1-2 . The 4-3-3 , is basicaly a diamond midfield with wingers. Allegri did the correct thing by adding width to our game since after Ibra and Cassano left and we only got Pazzo and Bojan , we didn't have the same quality centraly and he had to balance our game and it's not a coincedence he chose the 4-3-3 in the end to do this. Now , the are two big differences between them ;

#1. The wingers
#2. The central forward


#1 . The difference next to 4-1-2-1-2 is in the build up play , not in the final third really ; the central midfielders have exactly the same job in both systems , especialy on their defensive duties , with one important difference , in the 4-1-2-1-2 they usualy look to assist their #10 to drive the ball/assist/keep possesion with them , whilst if they play in the 4-3-3 , they will inevitably look to create from the wings and send the ball to the wingers and then drive the ball/assist/keep possesion. Now here's the case , once the ball ends up in the final third and the players are trying to find space to enable openings in the penalty area , it has no significant difference . Whether it is fullbacks who act as wingers or formal wingers or one of the 2 forwards that will occupy the space near one of the sides , it's the same thing. What they do from there it's down to tactics / opposition / individual brilliance , however , that a player will be there no matter what formation is evident , since it has to do with tactics and so one has to inevitably ask himself ;

Since our wingers in Boateng who's not that creative in assisting , Niang who's lolworthy if he doesn't have 50m to run at , Robinho and Bojan who are on the go and our only real threat is Ses , why stick with the 4-3-3 in the first place ?We don't have the depth in the wings , we don't even have a replacement for Ses if Robinho is leaving. It worked great so far , because mainly Montolivo/Ses had the best season of their careers and made it a lot easier for everyone to do their jobs up front or in the sides. Yet it's not enough if we want to compete . You can't possibly expect Montolivo or El Sharaawy to do this forever , run for two players and play for two roles at the same time. It's not a coincedence they were exhausted near the end of the season , even Prandelli realised that immediately. The same job can be done within the 4-1-2-1-2 since our fullbacks in De Sciglio-Abate-Constant are pretty fast and good going forward(Abate less) , they should act very well as wingers and at any given time , either Ses or Balotelli can also provide more than sufficiend width when it comes to that , since they utilise the wings very well . Not only that , but their best game comes from finishing chances and the best place on the field to do this , is having a central position.

#2 . The central forward is Balotelli. Finaly one-of-us-Mario realised his destiny and joined Milan . He's capable of playing in a 4-3-3 , as he proved for fun in the 2nd half of the season. Yet , here's the case and my main point really , in why the 4-1-2-1-2 should be our next formation ;




Take Barcelona and Milan . The spearhead of their diamond , is Messi and you know his game i assume . Unfortunately , we don't have a Messi , even though the 4-3-3 doesn't have to do with a Messi in one's team, it has to do with your best central player up front. Milan has Balotelli , who's more suited inside the area , his best game comes from inside the area and so he plays a canonical CF role , despite being capable of playing outside of it and with the 4-3-3 allowing him that option. In the final third and in his goalscoring duties he's bossing. Having that said , whenever Balotelli drops further back to play as a false 9 or even as #10 sometimes when further behind in the middle , it doesn't work like it should. And it doesn't because El Sharaawy doesn't benefit from his game and that's of vast importance. Ses needs a real ten to help him out , a #10 which plays as a #10 one who drives the ball and inevitably draws defenders to him and thus making space for Ses , so Ses can either cut inside and assist the CF / immediately assist the CF OR run at a through pass like he did with Boateng against Inter and score ;


Ses is a second striker who has the speed of a winger , the drive of an attacking midfielder and the finishing abilities of a pure 9 , we can't have Balotelli hinder such a player , even though he doesn't do it on purpose , it's just what his game is.

Balotelli doesn't look to help Ses when he finds himself as the spearhead of the diamond , because it's not in his game to do this. He could , but he won't , he is either capable of keeping possesion for a better constructed attack to develop or dribbling past his player and shoot from distance to score.Ses has suffered from that and it's noone's fault and i'll prove it in a sec. It's not a coincedence El Sharaawy didn't score near as much at the 2nd half of the season and people begun to question their co operation since Balo joined. Having all that said , here's the deal . Balo-Ses have showed what they can do up front with the Azzuri , but they do it in the diamond within the 4-1-2-1-2 , not in a 4-3-3 which is just a plan B for Prandelli. One big reason for that and i am 100% he knows this , is because of Balotelli and Ses. Many questioned why he doesn't use the 4-3-3 instead and it's because of this , they work waaay better with having someone playing a #10 role behind them and that allows them to cooperate actualy , since they can either assist each other or score for themselves , it works like a charm when they have that player who can assist them or open up space for them.

You may ask , why didn't Allegri chang formation when Balo came. Here's why , because these stuff don't just change mid season , unless you have big issues. In this season , we already changed from 4-1-2-1-2 , to 4-2-3-1 , to 3-4-3 and then to 4-3-3. It took it's toll and we lost so many points because players and tactics changed all the time. Allegri knew what will happen with Ses when Balo came , i'am 199% of this , but since he didn't want to risk everything now that things were working better , he threw everything to allow Balotelli to make an impact. That hindered Ses though Allegri wasn't an idiot when he kept saying " i am satisfied from Ses and he only needs to keep working" e.t.c. Montolivo tried to fill the trequartista role when possible , so both Ses and Balo could benefit , but since he has to play his DPL role AND his defensive duties on top of that , he couldn't do it all the time , that's what i meant runs for two and plays for two roles. Besides , it's not enough anyway , for all his quality this season.

So . From Berlusconi's last words , it's evident he felt Allegri was doing it wrong and he wanted to change coach , one reason is this one and it's crystal clear now. But i am sure once Galliani actualy informed Berlu about the case and when they both sat down and talked and cleared things out , he kept him. He says their relationship has always been cordial minor some differences , well that was the biggest one . Allegri's thesis on football has to do with a #10 , it's known , both on theory and since the begginings of this season , always had to do with a #10. Allegri would and will change the formation and it will be for the best. Especialy if reinforcements come in the middle and we buy a real #10 , we will kick ass next season with a better midfield , stabilised defensive work and Ses-Balo having way better means to cooperate and better understanding between them.

There's more to be said about the similarities of the two formations really , despite the length of this post i can go on much further and if this thread has any future i definitely will , yet i will leave the rest aside for now. Truth is , it's for the best to scrap the current formation to our well known 4-1-2-1-2 , since we have the depth for it and not only that , but it will allow us to spend some money more on the axis , since we won't be looking to add depth to our wingers , which aren't of the best quality anyway . With regards to the forwards , we will be more than ok with Pazzo and dat scrub Niang having the chance to develop in his normal formation . Saponara and Petagna will idealy better Robinho's and Bojan's replacements , allowing even more fund for transfers and our youth policy to continue , with the great bonus of Petagna coming from our own ranks.

If really Berlusconi wants the 4-1-2-1-2 , then for once he was right yet that makes him clueless as well , because he could just ask Allegri why he does what he does , instead of making all that. Truth be told , i will have great expectations from next season if Traore-Nocerino-Ambrosini are leaving. Not only we can keep Boateng , but if we buy Poli and 1 reliable #10 , we will kick serious ass next season and it's to our advantage that Galliani , Berlusconi and Allegri are on the same page again. It might as well work if Galliani does his fkn job like he used to