Re: How would Ronaldo and Neymar do at Barca?

by The Franchise Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:13 pm

Im sure you not the only one too.

The problem isnt your giving them roles, its that you dont give them any value, your not understanding the bigger point.

by Onyx Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:16 pm

So basically, they're all different types of players, but I'm just putting them into a certain category?

by The Franchise Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:18 pm

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:
The Franchise wrote:They dont need positions.

They are players who do certain things on the pitch. Thats is.

Why you are obsessed with classifying players.

Well obviously it's important to classify players at least as goalkeepers, defenders, midfielders, and attackers. After that it's really a matter of opinion.

Why is it important? What value does it serve?

One might call Dani Alves a defender and Sergi Busquets a midfielder. But who actually does more defending duties during a given game? Its not always Alves.

People talk about football like its a board game, or more accurate, a computer game. Football isnt like that, its more fluid. You can be one thing one minute and another thing the next.

And no, its not a matter of a opinion after that.

You explain to me how you can call someone a winger, who doesnt do what he does on the wing?

Thats not an opinion, its just silly.

by The Franchise Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:21 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:So basically, they're all different types of players, but I'm just putting them into a certain category?

I dont know what your doing.

I am just saying you should think more carefully about the words your using.

The word goalscoring. Where are the goals coming from? What positions are being taken up to score those goals?

The word winger. Wing, flank, the sides of the pitch.

Unless Cristiano is scoring goals from the side of the pitch, how can he be a goalscoring winger?

No, he is a player who uses the flanks, but scores goals in the box, in central areas.

by Mr Nick09 Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:25 pm

Dani falling into a loop Laughing

dont do that to yourself bro, in two weeks he will still be saying goalscoring winger, heck even later today Laughing

life is a short, light one up and chill...logic vs BotT Laughing

by Onyx Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:29 pm

He's a goalscoring winger, because he scores goals. I'm not saying he's a goalscoring winger because he scores goals from the wing.

Winger = position.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:31 pm

Mr Nick09 wrote:Dani falling into a loop

dont do that to yourself bro, in two weeks he will still be saying goalscoring winger, heck even later today

life is a short, light one up and chill...logic vs BotT

He's doing what i used to, argue consistently with the Madrid fans and coincidentally they still dig holes for themselves for me to pick at to this day Laughing

Just leave it yh....

by Onyx Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:47 pm

Anyway just to sum up everything about the positions.

What I'm saying is Silva and Nasri are playmaker wingers. Now that doesn't mean they only playmake from the wing. It's just their position is from the wing and they playmake.

Villa, Pedro and Ronaldo are inside forwards. Now that doesn't mean they only score from the wing. It just means their position is from the wing and they score goals.

Wingers have different roles nowadays. I don't see anything confusing about that.

by Pedram Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:48 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:He's a goalscoring winger, because he scores goals. I'm not saying he's a goalscoring winger because he scores goals from the wing.

Winger = position.

How would Ronaldo and Neymar do at Barca? - Page 5 3cd8a33a

by jibers Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:56 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:He's a goalscoring winger, because he scores goals. I'm not saying he's a goalscoring winger because he scores goals from the wing.

Winger = position.

How would Ronaldo and Neymar do at Barca? - Page 5 Tumblr_mau7bs740j1rvdyj7

by Onyx Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:01 pm

Yeh, that post did sound kinda confusing.

What I meant was:

He's a goalscoring winger, because he scores goals obviously.
He's position is on the wing.

However he doesn't just score from the wing area. He scores goals from any position.

by McAgger Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:09 pm

The Franchise wrote:
Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:
The Franchise wrote:They dont need positions.

They are players who do certain things on the pitch. Thats is.

Why you are obsessed with classifying players.

Well obviously it's important to classify players at least as goalkeepers, defenders, midfielders, and attackers. After that it's really a matter of opinion.

Why is it important? What value does it serve?

One might call Dani Alves a defender and Sergi Busquets a midfielder. But who actually does more defending duties during a given game? Its not always Alves.

People talk about football like its a board game, or more accurate, a computer game. Football isnt like that, its more fluid. You can be one thing one minute and another thing the next.

And no, its not a matter of a opinion after that.

You explain to me how you can call someone a winger, who doesnt do what he does on the wing?

Thats not an opinion, its just silly.

So someone that has no knowledge in football asks you what kind of players are Torres and Iker? What would you tell them?

Dani: "Oh they're just footballers. Torres, he scores goals, and what not. He's not a very good defender though. Casillas he never scores goals, he's just a footballer and yeah, mmmmmkay."

What if they ask you

"yeah I understand Torres scores goals, and Casillas tries to keep his team from conceding, they have their separate individual purposes, but what are their positions?"

Dani scratch

"they're footballers, mmmkay" :coffee:

I'm pumped on coffee, don't take it seriously if you don't want.

by Abramovich Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:06 pm

Giggity5313 wrote:

Barcelona do not need players who can dribble out wide.
Once again they need players who work their socks off to make runs, pressure, and score. If barcelonas wingers were scoring then they would be fine..

Honestly this season shouldn't be judged, we are low on morale in the league. Guess you weren't watching the last 2 seasons when we achieved record breaking points

Ok facepalm aside I will respond to you in a proper manner for once due to you actually being somewhat reasonable for your standards of not my words but someone from GL Xbox who describes you as a "typical obxnious teenage american".

The Franchise wrote:Wait, we should only judge the years it goes well? Not the bad ones too?

Anyway, I am getting a little tired of the "Barca wingers only need to do X".

Its not how the game works, we dont have players come in and do what we want and forget everything they do.

We want players who fit in, but yet provide something unique which marks them out.

Pedro, Villa, Tello, Alexis and Cuenca are all pretty different and do different things.

The reason 2 might play is because we require their unique skill set plus taking into account form and fitness.

I dont know why people think we dont use dribblers anyway, Cuenca does exactly that, dribble out wide.

Well where to start, on the dribble and winger discussion I think Fran sums it all up pretty nicely and probably conveys it better than I would. You fail to acknowledge the point of VS bus parking teams aka adding another dimension, and you basically say Neymar is as useful as Pedro or Tello at scoring on the wings. The Neymar who at 20 has like 100 goals or so, some critics say that Barca are one dimensional and lack a plan B. Yet noone in the Barca team aside from Messi can get past, beat and dribble players like Neymar can he has an X factor which you continue to ignore.

You also need to factor in I never said Nerman would be brilliant in the Barca system or be a perfect fit, but like Ive said hes only 20 and still has much to learn. I did however say he would be a better fit than Ronaldo because he quite frankly would.

Giggity5313 wrote:
Mr Nick09 wrote:they do need players who are quality dribblers in small spaces, good in one on one. Callejon for example cant play on the wing for barca
I'm sorry, I worded it wrongly.

However, the traits I listed are far more important imo then dribbling.

Guess this one is solved too then, apology accepted although wording wrongly doesn't change the fact that you don't read the posts properly

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
Giggity5313 wrote:My opinion has changed a little from reading you guys, because you guys have brought valid points. However, ronaldo would still succeed in my opinion far more then you would think. There isn't more to say here, this topic has been beaten up, so honestly there isn't anything else to say.

Depends what you mean by "succeed"

Would he score goals? yes but Ibra and Cesc to an extent last season scored goals.

Doesn't mean they succeed though, he wouldn't fit the overall structure of the team for reasons already explained.

He would most likely "fail" to "fit" for reasons already mentioned but he would score and that doesn't make him a bad player.

Ibra isn't a bad player, Cesc isn't a bad player and so on.

I don't need to add more on this either, aside from seven doesn't understand this concept at all there are plently of examples where talent doesn't fit into system but them goggles are strong.

by The Franchise Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:55 pm

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:
The Franchise wrote:They dont need positions.

They are players who do certain things on the pitch. Thats is.

Why you are obsessed with classifying players.

Well obviously it's important to classify players at least as goalkeepers, defenders, midfielders, and attackers. After that it's really a matter of opinion.

Why is it important? What value does it serve?

One might call Dani Alves a defender and Sergi Busquets a midfielder. But who actually does more defending duties during a given game? Its not always Alves.

People talk about football like its a board game, or more accurate, a computer game. Football isnt like that, its more fluid. You can be one thing one minute and another thing the next.

And no, its not a matter of a opinion after that.

You explain to me how you can call someone a winger, who doesnt do what he does on the wing?

Thats not an opinion, its just silly.

So someone that has no knowledge in football asks you what kind of players are Torres and Iker? What would you tell them?

Dani: "Oh they're just footballers. Torres, he scores goals, and what not. He's not a very good defender though. Casillas he never scores goals, he's just a footballer and yeah, mmmmmkay."

What if they ask you

"yeah I understand Torres scores goals, and Casillas tries to keep his team from conceding, they have their separate individual purposes, but what are their positions?"

Dani "they're footballers, mmmkay"

I'm pumped on coffee, don't take it seriously if you don't want.

Yeah, but none of us on this forum has no knowledge so it doesnt matter.

Of course, to shorter posts, to say something quicker there is nothing wrong with calling someone "a midfielder", I obviously aint so picky like that. I am just saying there is too much talk by people who actually know football in such rigid terms.

Why does everyone always have to be "something"?.

by The Franchise Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:04 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:

Wingers have different roles nowadays. I don't see anything confusing about that.

This is where your going horribly wrong. Its false.

A winger is someone who does what he does out on the wing.

If you arent doing that, you aint a winger. Nothing more.

by The Franchise Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:04 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:Yeh, that post did sound kinda confusing.

What I meant was:

He's a goalscoring winger, because he scores goals obviously.
He's position is on the wing.

However he doesn't just score from the wing area. He scores goals from any position.

He doesnt score any goals from the wing area, nobody scores goals from the wing area.

The only thing "wing" about Cristiano is where they tell you he is playing on caption before the game starts. On the field, he does very little positive things in wide areas.

He is not a winger at all.

by danyjr Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:46 pm

I think you are putting too much emphasis on words. Obviously everyone has a different perception of the word 'winger'. This is not an English forum, it is a football forum.

Wikipedia wrote:In football, a winger is an attacking midfielder in a wide position. Their main function is to support attack from the wings.

by Onyx Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:56 pm

The Franchise wrote:
Yohan Modric wrote:

Wingers have different roles nowadays. I don't see anything confusing about that.

This is where your going horribly wrong. Its false.

A winger is someone who does what he does out on the wing.

If you arent doing that, you aint a winger. Nothing more.

I'm just saying winger because they play out wide. I'm not sure if there's another word for that. Yeh, wingers are wingers, players who are generic wingers. I agree with that. However there are different types of wide players. I know not everyone may want to give those players specific position names. I've given my positional names in previous posts.

The Franchise wrote:
Yohan Modric wrote:Yeh, that post did sound kinda confusing.

What I meant was:

He's a goalscoring winger, because he scores goals obviously.
He's position is on the wing.

However he doesn't just score from the wing area. He scores goals from any position.

He doesnt score any goals from the wing area, nobody scores goals from the wing area.

The only thing "wing" about Cristiano is where they tell you he is playing on caption before the game starts. On the field, he does very little positive things in wide areas.

He is not a winger at all.

Actually Ronaldo still does do things which a winger does. Occasionally he dribbles, crosses etc. However mainly nowadays he's a goalscorer. Now for me, a goalscoring winger is an inside forward. Again, not everyone may agree with that.

by julias Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:19 pm

This thread has descended into absolute sh*t

by The Sanchez Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:33 am

I think everyone should learn how to use English and football in all posts from Dani. Let the master of logic, teach us all... :coffee:

by The Franchise Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:38 am

No, I dont have a great command of English really and im not football expert either. Dont flatter me.

Just think little bit of common sense can go a long way.

by FalcaoPunch Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:40 am

Wingers don't have wings?

No but seriously.
Ronaldo after thinking about would be able to play in Barca's system. But it's take more effort from him to somewhat change his style of play to fit properly. Same for neymar.

by Abramovich Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:57 am

Fran you should evaluate my post, id like to see your thoughts on it tbh.

by The Franchise Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:28 am

Sorry, I missed it.

I agree, Neymar has those things. He could probably fit well enough. But it remains to see how he does in European football.

by CBarca Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:21 am

Dani's got great football knowledge but he is no master of English Laughing

Tbf Dani- I agree with you- but it is human nature to classify things, and for some people it may be easier, and more logical to put things into FM terms about football...although I don't really agree with it.

Glad I have stayed out of this thread for the most part though, lol.

by futbol Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:00 am

Did not read anything in this thread so far (I'll do after this post to see who thinks likewise).

If Ronaldo would play for Barca, his goals would dry up considerably. I guess it would come down to around 35 goals in a season at best instead of 50+ as of right now. Why? Because the game wouldn't flow through him mainly. He wouldn't get to take every penalty kick, every freekick and he wouldn't get to take 7+ shots per game. This would also have knock-on effects on his psychology and confidence and he might end up like Ibrahimovic who couldn't accept to live in Messi's shadow (I imagine it must be horrible for guys like that with huge egos when they realize that they can't keep up with the GOAT). I also believe Ronaldo would struggle to a certain degree to adapt to a playing style which requires immense technique in tight spaces since Barcelona's possession game allows the opponent to reshape and get 10 men behind the ball which needs to be broken down with combinational play ("tiki taka"). Which is totally against Ronaldo's main strength (using his pace to run into space and poaching goals). People are underestimating this. Look at Sanchez. Best player in Serie A, deemed one of the best dribblers in the world. Looks totally lost without space at Barcelona. I don't think Ronaldo would be reckognized as the second best player in the world if he played for Barcelona. At the end of the day he isn't a particularly outstanding footballer (passing, dribbling). Just a very good goalscorer and I believe with the amount of chances a stacked team like Real Madrid creates, RvP, Cavani or Falcao would reach similar goalscoring stats.

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