Bundesliga

B-Mac wrote:

free_cat wrote:

Gil wrote:Give Italy their 4 CL spots back and stop devaluing this competition even further.

Bayern and Dortmund are both incredible sides but the rest of the League is a joke and I have no idea why people pretend otherwise. La Liga has more depth ffs.

Bayern is an incredible side.
Dortmund is a one season wonder so far.

LOL

go home free, your drunk

When was the last time you beat real by 3 goals. I remember my first beer...

dumbass thread but no surprises there. of course the italians were famous for quattro penetrating the CL every year...

schalke has performed well over the last CL seasons and now they are managed by a total retard named keller. and well, this leverkusen side has no idea how to play CL - big deal.

RED wrote:

Donuts wrote:one bad beat and it labels the whole german league??

Atletico Madrid wiped the shit outa Chelsea last year in the Super Copa...
R.I.P English league? cmon now..

That is true in logic, but take into consideration that Chelsea were coming from a season in which they finished 6th. We're not doing that great in the BPL, yet we've just wiped the floor with the team that is flying 2nd in the Bundesliga. That's why I think people here are bemused a bit. They didn't expect it to be this easy for United.

no instead Chelsea came from a team that won the Champions league, Leverkuson didn't finish second last season either but third.

ioilersrock448 wrote:Schalke have terrific players but Keller is just awful and the goalkeeping situation is a complete mess, Leverkusen were just awful today.

Schalke have tons of injuries atm. You can't put this on Keller. Klaas-Jan Huntelaar won't be back before January, and Papa has been missing for ages now, too. The team they put up on Tuesday were the last men standing - they had practically no alternatives for the midfield and they even had to play an LB as winger as in attack the players ran out, too.

As for Leverkusen - they are known for having one or the other total off-game, especially in the CL. Barca 7:1 Leverkusen, anyone?

Awww come on, in that Barca-Leverkusen game Barca would've only won 6-1 with a proper ref!

One of the worst performances of all time by Lever today.

Disappointed with Sami, but the team and the manager lack experience at this stage and it showed. Great credit to Moyes (this win alone deserves an extension IMO), and United who were great today.

Emre Can , remember the fuss about this guy. More like Emre Can't

Son Heung Min is shit by the way. I keep reading this guy is brilliant and all, but literally every single time I watch him for Bayer or Korea NT, he's been downright awful. Terrible replacement for Schurrle.

Gil

jibers wrote:

B-Mac wrote:

free_cat wrote:Bayern is an incredible side.
Dortmund is a one season wonder so far.

LOL

go home free, your drunk

When was the last time you beat real by 3 goals. I remember my first beer...

Last season aside, when was the last time Dortmund reached Cl semis? 1994?

free_cat wrote:
Last season aside, when was the last time Dortmund reached Cl semis? 1994?

I'd say 1997, when they won the cup.
But you keep on sailin'!

VivaStPauli wrote:

free_cat wrote:
Last season aside, when was the last time Dortmund reached Cl semis? 1994?

I'd say 1997, when they won the cup.
But you keep on sailin'!

Exactly, that's when I meant. 16 years ago.
One season wonder. What other German team has reached the final or semis during this period? One season fluke from Schalke.

Bundesliga has finally improved, but they've been sailing in mediocrity for 50 years, Bayern aside.

Well, maybe that's because Germany only started about 10 years ago to systematically go about training our youngsters. Before that everybody could double in it just as they saw fit. Now the clubs go about things a bit more methodically.

As for Dortmund - they had a totally inept chaos board and presidency up to 2005 that almost completely bankrupted the club. From 2005 on they had to build up the club from almost zero again (they even had to sell their stadium), so having them win the BL twice in the last 3 years, reach the last CL final and consolidate as 2nd biggest earning club in Germany by now is almost a miracle.

free_cat went from Dortmund are a one season wonder to "Bundesliga was mediocre 50 years ago lolz". Is trolling not punished anymore on here?

urbaNRoots wrote:free_cat went from Dortmund are a one season wonder to "Bundesliga was mediocre 50 years ago lolz". Is trolling not punished anymore on here?

Hm. If I'd punish him for saying stuff against the Bundesliga, I'd certainly be slated as being biased so someone of the other mods should better do that. But isn't it even more fun to debunk his inept trolling attempts?

Absolutely pathetic by Bayer, but i'm not surprised.

FFS thats Chelsea & Man Utd both went to Germany with question marks over then and found it to the the easiest games they've had all season.

This all undermines the Bundesliga having anything like the strength in depth of EPL, La Liga or Serie A.

If this United team went to Athletico or Roma there is no hope in hell they would even win by 2 clear goals.

The Germans have done alot of things right with their league, but this is also the results. Clubs outside Bayern & Dortmund have very little spending money and are feeders for bigger sides. Sad but true.

rwo power wrote:

urbaNRoots wrote:free_cat went from Dortmund are a one season wonder to "Bundesliga was mediocre 50 years ago lolz". Is trolling not punished anymore on here?

Hm. If I'd punish him for saying stuff against the Bundesliga, I'd certainly be slated as being biased so someone of the other mods should better do that. But isn't it even more fun to debunk his inept trolling attempts?

Where's the trolling when only Schalke once, Leverkusen once, and Dortmund once have reached CL semifinals for the last 17 years (Bayern aside)? I admit that now there are two big teams in Germany, but until 2 years ago, it was only Bayern.

@free_cat
Actually I considered more the OP as trolling - I was at fault that I didn't check to see it was actually Gil, not you, so I'm sorry for that.

@Suarez
Bayer Leverkusen are *always* crumbling when it is most inconvenient for them, so that is more a problem of Neverkusen (why did you think they got this moniker in the first place?) than a Bundesliga problem.

And I think you should wait for the last matchday until slating the BL teams. (Although I have to admit I will be keeping my fingers crossed for Basel instead of Schalke, even though it is not good for the BL.)

It's not trolling if it's true. Germany have been producing exceptional talent recently but that doesn't necessarily mean their clubs are automatically great.

Bayern are the one true exceptional side in that team but even Dortmund aren't that impressive in all honesty. They had a fairytale season last year but this is the side that finished 20 points behind Bayern, that isn't exactly elite is it?

I think the success of Bayern and BVB last season and the ensuing praise somehow managed to undeservedly trickle down to the League last season. The rest of the League is pretty poor compared to Serie A and the PL. La Liga was in that category until they sold all their talent abroad.

no italian team made it the past the quarter finals after 2010 .

german teams outperformed them in 2011 , 2012 , 2013 , and surely 2014 .

italy doesn't deserve a 4th place at the moment .

They had a fairytale season last year but this is the side that finished 20 points behind Bayern, that isn't exactly elite is it?

and  what about the back to back league titles they managed to win in 2011 and 2012? . that was  not elite ?

It's not just about losing though, some of the German teams in past years have been completely destroyed and Leverkusen has been by far the worst offender.

Italian teams have their problems but besides THAT United v Roma game and Raul leading Schalke past Inter I don't remember any game where a Sera A side got completely destroyed. Sure they've lost games, that happens a lot lately lol, but never really embarrassed

.

Mentality thing imho, the huge Premiere TV empire collapse in the late 90s (or whenever it was, it's not like I'll google it) cost the entire leagues incredible amounts of money. German clubs were gunning for European glory left and right during the 90s, but suddenly the England-level of TV money went away basically over night, only the clubs with a sound business model survived that with any semblance of being competitive (hint, it was only Bayern) - but the same thing would be true if the British TV-money and sugardaddies went away tomorrow, it'd be just Arsenal, basically.

That's not saying German clubs didn't suck, it's just the explanation as to why.

To examine the current level of suck, it's easily explained. Bayer are a small-mentality club, always have been. They have on occasion splashed the money around, but they always stopped when it counted. Just look at their team. They lost during the last few years players like Ballack, Schürrle, Vidal, Barnetta, Renato Augusto etc - whenever it counted, they sold, instead of digging in.
They are Neverkusen, they're the prototype of a Europa League team, and if Stuttgart weren't too cheap to buy new players, and Bremen weren't broke, they'd never be in the Champion's League to begin with.

Schalke is just collapsing all around the inexperienced Jens Keller, who's got a positive outlook and a nice way to foster youngsters, but little in the way of tactical acumen, or fostering a winning mentality. The management is prone to rash judgements, and sacked the brilliant Huub Stevens for a few bad results when the team's form dipped - now they're stuck with Keller, and have half their team injured.

It comes down, in the end, to lack of funds, which is only going to improve over the coming years. The TV-deal is getting a big bump over the next few seasons AFAIK, France and Spain will finally tax their football players as if they had a proper tax system in place - the Bundesliga clubs are going to catch up.

But of course they won't reach the retardedly rich sugar-daddy clubs. And they don't want to. Most Germans (such as RWO and myself) don't even want that either. I'd rather have our mid-table teams flunk out of the CL than have a club I love owned like a trophy winning race horse by some insane oligarch, whether it's Arab oil money, Russian gas and extortion money, or some American family that's going to run my club into the ground (my condolences go to Anfield) - I'd rather stay with fan ownership thankyouverymuch.

My home club is broke and doing reasonably well in the 2nd flight. I still love watching their matches.


As to the actual topic: It's not like any other league is doing a lot better. And I can live with coming 2nd to England, where the average clubs spend like 4 times of what our clubs spend, and achieve about the same.

VivaStPauli wrote:Mentality thing imho, the huge Premiere TV empire collapse in the late 90s (or whenever it was, it's not like I'll google it) cost the entire leagues incredible amounts of money. German clubs were gunning for European glory left and right during the 90s, but suddenly the England-level of TV money went away basically over night, only the clubs with a sound business model survived that with any semblance of being competitive (hint, it was only Bayern) - but the same thing would be true if the British TV-money and sugardaddies went away tomorrow, it'd be just Arsenal, basically.

That's not saying German clubs didn't suck, it's just the explanation as to why.

To examine the current level of suck, it's easily explained. Bayer are a small-mentality club, always have been. They have on occasion splashed the money around, but they always stopped when it counted. Just look at their team. They lost during the last few years players like Ballack, Schürrle, Vidal, Barnetta, Renato Augusto etc - whenever it counted, they sold, instead of digging in.
They are Neverkusen, they're the prototype of a Europa League team, and if Stuttgart weren't too cheap to buy new players, and Bremen weren't broke, they'd never be in the Champion's League to begin with.

Schalke is just collapsing all around the inexperienced Jens Keller, who's got a positive outlook and a nice way to foster youngsters, but little in the way of tactical acumen, or fostering a winning mentality. The management is prone to rash judgements, and sacked the brilliant Huub Stevens for a few bad results when the team's form dipped - now they're stuck with Keller, and have half their team injured.

It comes down, in the end, to lack of funds, which is only going to improve over the coming years. The TV-deal is getting a big bump over the next few seasons AFAIK, France and Spain will finally tax their football players as if they had a proper tax system in place - the Bundesliga clubs are going to catch up.

But of course they won't reach the retardedly rich sugar-daddy clubs. And they don't want to. Most Germans (such as RWO and myself) don't even want that either. I'd rather have our mid-table teams flunk out of the CL than have a club I love owned like a trophy winning race horse by some insane oligarch, whether it's Arab oil money, Russian gas and extortion money, or some American family that's going to run my club into the ground (my condolences go to Anfield) - I'd rather stay with fan ownership thankyouverymuch.

My home club is broke and doing reasonably well in the 2nd flight. I still love watching their matches.


As to the actual topic: It's not like any other league is doing a lot better. And I can live with coming 2nd to England, where the average clubs spend like 4 times of what our clubs spend, and achieve about the same.

Extremely good points all round. However I will say that rich owners (who are 100% committed mind you) will always and forever will be a credit to the game, not something that should be frowned upon. I mean fcking Berlusconi gave us one of the greatest teams ever that's worth something imo.

TBH if all teams instantly got a proper owner in the same season, I probably wouldn't mind. But if I commanded the hand of god, I'd probably introduce a salary cap, a ticket price cap, disallow professional contracts under the age of 16, and force clubs to always field at least 6 domestic players.

This can never happen of course, but it'd be, like, so awesome.

I guess from the perspective of a Bundesliga small-timer club, like my club for example, the clubs with sugardaddies just look like rich jerks that are the reason you can't keep your acedemy product. Of course they also mean that all star teams can be assembled, which are awesome to watch.

I'd just rather have clubs pump tens of millions into their academies and training facilities than transfers, though, and a salary cap would mean those youngsters would have good reason to stay with their club - f*ck me, if they kept all their youngsters, Stuttgart would be gunning for the UCL trophy right now.

VivaStPauli wrote:TBH if all teams instantly got a proper owner in the same season, I probably wouldn't mind. But if I commanded the hand of god, I'd probably introduce a salary cap, a ticket price cap, disallow professional contracts under the age of 16, and force clubs to always field at least 6 domestic players.

This can never happen of course, but it'd be, like, so awesome.

I guess from the perspective of a Bundesliga small-timer club, like my club for example, the clubs with sugardaddies just look like rich jerks that are the reason you can't keep your acedemy product. Of course they also mean that all star teams can be assembled, which are awesome to watch.

I'd just rather have clubs pump tens of millions into their academies and training facilities than transfers, though, and a salary cap would mean those youngsters would have good reason to stay with their club - f*ck me, if they kept all their youngsters, Stuttgart would be gunning for the UCL trophy right now.

I don't understand the debate about salary caps. How do salary caps work?

El Chelsea Fuerte wrote:I don't understand the debate about salary caps. How do salary caps work?

The idea is, that there's a maximum allowable salary for a player. This makes money borderline-irrelevant for transfers once all clubs have achieved a certain level of financial prowess.
The idea is, if the salary cap was, say, less than half of what the current top-earners make, they'd still all be massive millionaires, but mid-range clubs could pay 3-5 players the maximum allowable salary, meaning the "smaller" clubs wouldn't have all their players poached off them - eventually, the playing field would equalize, and things like youth programs, "work" environment etc would decide where players go over who pays the biggest salary.

It would mean that clubs like Atletico, Valencia, Fiorentina, Neverkusen, Schalke, Dortmund, Everton, Porto, or Marseille would get to keep their star players, unless they get actually lured away by another concept, like a different management style, strategy, or nicer city to live in.

Of course, now, this isn't possible anymore - but the thought is nice.

VivaStPauli wrote:

El Chelsea Fuerte wrote:I don't understand the debate about salary caps. How do salary caps work?

The idea is, that there's a maximum allowable salary for a player. This makes money borderline-irrelevant for transfers once all clubs have achieved a certain level of financial prowess.
The idea is, if the salary cap was, say, less than half of what the current top-earners make, they'd still all be massive millionaires, but mid-range clubs could pay 3-5 players the maximum allowable salary, meaning the "smaller" clubs wouldn't have all their players poached off them - eventually, the playing field would equalize, and things like youth programs, "work" environment etc would decide where players go over who pays the biggest salary.

It would mean that clubs like Atletico, Valencia, Fiorentina, Neverkusen, Schalke, Dortmund, Everton, Porto, or Marseille would get to keep their star players, unless they get actually lured away by another concept, like a different management style, strategy, or nicer city to live in.

Of course, now, this isn't possible anymore - but the thought is nice.

From a Chelsea fan who's fed up with big spending, that sounds like a good idea

@Viva

Great posts, 100% signed.

Even RWO (who are currently in the 4th division) lose some promising players to the big guns - Max Meyer, who started as RWO kid, very soon went to the Schalke youth academy - not that I can't understand this; Schalke's youth academy is top notch after all. But I defo wouldn't want my team to belong to someone who just feels like collecting sports clubs for fun anyway. ^^