Is Messi still the best ever?

jibers wrote:

chad4401 wrote:that the whole point in the first place talent, who cares what the level of the footy was back then, the footy nowadays ain't anything special, when you look at all the fodders around now compared to the best teams/players, but its soooooooo different because it modern give me a break, all this to put freaking lacazette ffs on the same pele level

I've seen some absolute garbage posted on this forum, but tis is by far the worst. That takes some doing so congrats Katy Perry for being more clueless than scooby doo.

Well, I believe that if Lacazette played in 1950/60 Pele's Brazil and Santos he would have scored thousands of goals, dominated in Brazil, won 3 WCs. At the same time, he'll never leave the same legacy as Pele because he's not living in 1950/1960 but in an era where he's just a very good player. You don't agree with me? You think that's the worst garbage and clueless thing you've ever written? Fair enough. We can't always have the same opinion, you can only have perspective if you have more points of view. The world would be flat and boring if we all had the same opinions.

Valkyrja wrote:

IMO that smoking thing back then ( I didn't even know that Socrates was a smoker, could you give any other examples?) is similar to the advertising today. Similar, not identically. Every period has its ups and downs.

In his autobiography, Newcastle legend Jackie Milburn revealed that, prior to the 1951 FA Cup final against Blackpool, he went to the bathroom at Wembley to have a smoke, and he found four of his teammates already there smoking. He promptly went out and scored both goals in a 2-0 Newcastle win.

Leeds legend Jack Charlton, who won the World Cup with England in 1966 and later managed the Republic of Ireland to its greatest successes in the 1980s and 90s, smoked prolifically as a player, and he was actually photographed with a cigarette in his mouth while at training with Leeds.

Argentine star Ossie Ardiles, who played for Tottenham for a decade and has managed Spurs and Newcastle, among many others, reportedly smoked 40 cigarettes a day during his career.

Garrincha was an alcoholic who was well known to sometimes drinking even before games.

Yes, I know some players like Zidane, a player from more recent times, also has been spotted with a cigarette in his mouth. I haven't seen reports yet that he was smoking 20, 30, 40 cigarettes a day during his playing days though. Mathieu has also admitted to smoking once in a while but not too much and even then you can see it. He looks gassed towards end of games despite playing CB. Özil is another player spotted with a cigaratte in his mouth and he certainly plays like it. Not hard to guess how a game between a modern, high pressing team like Pep's Barca, Klopp's Dortmund, Pep's Bayern against "dem olden teams" would have went were the culture of smoking even in the dressing room wasn't much of a big deal. Can't compare such different eras.

Lord Awesome wrote:

CBarca wrote:

Barca's weakness has to do with the team. Messi's decline after 2013 until recently has a part to do with it, but he was still playing at a level that was top 3 in the world. Barca lookong mortal doesn't mean Messi is not the best lmao. It may have to do with hmm, shitty coaching, shitty tranfers, a lack of defenders...surprisingly all the things Barca fans have been complaining about, none having to do with Messi. That argument is incredibly weak.

I mean you're ignoring 2009-2013 as well, when Messi was inarguably the best player in the world.

If you want to look at Argentina then go ahead. You'd be looking at a team lead and based around Messi that lossed in the world cup final to a much better team in extra time. What a failure.

Time has most certainly not proved you right lmao

Well, you answered yourself. Barca was poop and where was Messi? Nowhere. Feel like blaming everyone else but Messi? OK.

Argentina pulled by Masch in the WC. Wanna believe Best World Cup player was legit? Go for it.

I'll just let time do the talking some more from here on out.

You said not since 2009 and yet haven't accounted for 2009-2013. Btw, in one of those years Messi was the most outstanding player in a Barca team that won the league and CL. Probably wasn't the best though.

You seem to be picking Barca's play since 2013 where the entire team has had bad coaches, older players retire or leave, club instability, no defense and a declining midfield and saying "ahahahah see guys I told you so!". It doesn't work like that. Even during this time he's played at a top 3 level and very arguably was still the best.

I didn't say Messi was the best player at the WC, don't put words in my mouth. I said he lead a team that reached the finals and lost to a vastly superior German team. You said look at his play for Argentina. I did. That is his play for Argentina. It looks very fitting really.

I'm not really sure you believe in what you're saying.

sportsczy wrote:

Pippo wrote:According to Wikipedia, Josef Bican (1928-1955) could run 100 metres in 10.8 seconds.

This is the post of the thread truly brilliant. Wonder if Jesse Owens was actually slow

Handheld stopwatches are not reliable when it comes to 100-metre races.

Fußball wrote:

Argentine star Ossie Ardiles, who played for Tottenham for a decade and has managed Spurs and Newcastle, among many others, reportedly smoked 40 cigarettes a day during his career.

Fußball wrote:

Valkyrja wrote:

IMO that smoking thing back then ( I didn't even know that Socrates was a smoker, could you give any other examples?) is similar to the advertising today. Similar, not identically. Every period has its ups and downs.

In his autobiography, Newcastle legend Jackie Milburn revealed that, prior to the 1951 FA Cup final against Blackpool, he went to the bathroom at Wembley to have a smoke, and he found four of his teammates already there smoking. He promptly went out and scored both goals in a 2-0 Newcastle win.

Leeds legend Jack Charlton, who won the World Cup with England in 1966 and later managed the Republic of Ireland to its greatest successes in the 1980s and 90s, smoked prolifically as a player, and he was actually photographed with a cigarette in his mouth while at training with Leeds.

Argentine star Ossie Ardiles, who played for Tottenham for a decade and has managed Spurs and Newcastle, among many others, reportedly smoked 40 cigarettes a day during his career.

Garrincha was an alcoholic who was well known to sometimes drinking even before games.

Yes, I know some players like Zidane, a player from more recent times, also has been spotted with a cigarette in his mouth. I haven't seen reports yet that he was smoking 20, 30, 40 cigarettes a day during his playing days though. Mathieu has also admitted to smoking once in a while but not too much and even then you can see it. He looks gassed towards end of games despite playing CB. Özil is another player spotted with a cigaratte in his mouth and he certainly plays like it. Not hard to guess how a game between a modern, high pressing team like Pep's Barca, Klopp's Dortmund, Pep's Bayern against "dem olden teams" would have went were the culture of smoking even in the dressing room wasn't much of a big deal. Can't compare such different eras.

Thing is there used to be more rest periods during a game. More stoppages, set pieces, docile possession at the back, so when it mattered the players could still turn up the intensity to a very high level.

All this conversation has managed to convince me is that football is more athletically demanding today and players would not be able to get away with that sort of thing nowadays. Doesn't mean that they wouldn't give it up in today's football (or if they would even get into the habit in today's football culture), or that their skill level was any lower.

CBarca wrote:
You said not since 2009 and yet haven't accounted for 2009-2013. Btw, in one of those years Messi was the most outstanding player in a Barca team that won the league and CL. Probably wasn't the best though.

You seem to be picking Barca's play since 2013 where the entire team has had bad coaches, older players retire or leave, club instability, no defense and a declining midfield and saying "ahahahah see guys I told you so!". It doesn't work like that. Even during this time he's played at a top 3 level and very arguably was still the best.

I didn't say Messi was the best player at the WC, don't put words in my mouth. I said he lead a team that reached the finals and lost to a vastly superior German team. You said look at his play for Argentina. I did. That is his play for Argentina. It looks very fitting really.

I'm not really sure you believe in what you're saying.

I've been saying that Messi hasn't been the best since 2009 only because after season I've noticed Ronaldo was on top. Stats or results can't really tell you that but performances can but that's for another thread. What I can say here is that I knew as soon as Xavi declined so would Barca, and Messi, while still second best, started to wane. Not in his form but in his numbers. All I'm saying is I saw that one coming a mile away whereas Ronaldo has remained consistantly above him overall.

Now I apologize for what I said about Messi deserving the award. I must say though, even if he was the one to lead during the WC I only notice that he was only successful in the group stage while in the latter stages it was Masch who really came through for Argentina, IMO. Messi did contribute one assist in the latter stages (and a pen against the Netherlands if you wanna count that too) but really one has to admit that Messi didn't really seem outstanding beyond that regardless of what system was played. Certainly wasn't the best player for Argentina then, IMO.

You can say I hate Messi but really I don't dislike or "hate" him. All I do is try and put him on level to where I believe he is at. Nothing more.

Dafuq is Fakenaldo mentioned in this thread?

El Clasico 09-15 (league and cl) statistics (OPTA)

Messi - Cronaldo - Stat
13 - 13 - Games
10 - 06 - Goals
4.3 - 9.5 - Shots per Goal
04 - 01 - Assists
13 - 01 - Through balls
24 - 06 - Chances created
67 - 34 - Dribbles
53 - 37 - Fouled
33 - 30 - Dispossessed
15 - 27 - Turnovers

And this is how they have to go every game:



When you actually analyze it further, beyond goal scoring statistics, it comes more obvious how much better Messi really is. The difference is mind boggling, Cronaldo is much closer of an average player than Messi.

Messi really has to be best ever, if player like Cronaldo has 3 Ballon d'Or's.

I'm sorry, but it's hard to take you seriously when you stoop down to the level of referring to him as "fakenaldo", like some random troll on goal.com's comment section

If you're going to post a lot of stats to back up your arguments, at least try to hide your bias.

Lord Awesome wrote:
I've been saying that Messi hasn't been the best since 2009 only because after season I've noticed Ronaldo was on top. Stats or results can't really tell you that but performances can but that's for another thread. What I can say here is that I knew as soon as Xavi declined so would Barca, and Messi, while still second best, started to wane. Not in his form but in his numbers. All I'm saying is I saw that one coming a mile away whereas Ronaldo has remained consistantly above him overall.

Now I apologize for what I said about Messi deserving the award. I must say though, even if he was the one to lead during the WC I only notice that he was only successful in the group stage while in the latter stages it was Masch who really came through for Argentina, IMO. Messi did contribute one assist in the latter stages (and a pen against the Netherlands if you wanna count that too) but really one has to admit that Messi didn't really seem outstanding beyond that regardless of what system was played. Certainly wasn't the best player for Argentina then, IMO.

You can say I hate Messi but really I don't dislike or "hate" him. All I do is try and put him on level to where I believe he is at. Nothing more.

Since 2009? Messi is best even today. What you mean by being best? If you open livescore.com and rate players then its ok. But CR was never better than Messi in actual play

You say you dont talk about stats. But is there anything except stats CR was better at? What else he does except scoring? He is on bale level in actual play without scoring. Isco is better player than him if we dont count scoring

About Xavi. Last game Xavi didnt play and Messi showed his best performance since 2013. Do you really think Xavi makes Messi good? For me Messi was better when he played with Fabregas. Fabregas loved unexpected passes and he had great through balls. Xavi prefers safe short passes. Messi loves players like Iniesta and Fabregas. Isco Ozil also would do great with Messi. So any big team have these great passers. Dont tell me that CR doesnt have them

Watch cr's and messi's performance against atletico in last week if you dont believe messi is even better today

adamdar wrote:

Lord Awesome wrote:
I've been saying that Messi hasn't been the best since 2009 only because after season I've noticed Ronaldo was on top. Stats or results can't really tell you that but performances can but that's for another thread. What I can say here is that I knew as soon as Xavi declined so would Barca, and Messi, while still second best, started to wane. Not in his form but in his numbers. All I'm saying is I saw that one coming a mile away whereas Ronaldo has remained consistantly above him overall.

Now I apologize for what I said about Messi deserving the award. I must say though, even if he was the one to lead during the WC I only notice that he was only successful in the group stage while in the latter stages it was Masch who really came through for Argentina, IMO. Messi did contribute one assist in the latter stages (and a pen against the Netherlands if you wanna count that too) but really one has to admit that Messi didn't really seem outstanding beyond that regardless of what system was played. Certainly wasn't the best player for Argentina then, IMO.

You can say I hate Messi but really I don't dislike or "hate" him. All I do is try and put him on level to where I believe he is at. Nothing more.

Since 2009? Messi is best even today. What you mean by being best? If you open livescore.com and rate players then its ok. But CR was never better than Messi in actual play

You say you dont talk about stats. But is there anything except stats CR was better at? What else he does except scoring? He is on bale level in actual play without scoring. Isco is better player than him if we dont count scoring

About Xavi. Last game Xavi didnt play and Messi showed his best performance since 2013. Do you really think Xavi makes Messi good? For me Messi was better when he played with Fabregas. Fabregas loved unexpected passes and he had great through balls. Xavi prefers safe short passes. Messi loves players like Iniesta and Fabregas. Isco Ozil also would do great with Messi. So any big team have these great passers. Dont tell me that CR doesnt have them

Watch cr's and messi's performance against atletico in last week if you dont believe messi is even better today

Messi was pretty much invisible in the previous 5 or 6 matches vs Atletico. In CL last year he ran as much as Pinto iirc. I'm not saying that Ronaldo is better but that's a stupid way to compare the two

PS : And you also say that Isco is better than Ronaldo

injuries took a toll on him last season imo. Those performances at the end of the year were cringe worthy at time.

Thimmy wrote:I'm sorry, but it's hard to take you seriously when you stoop down to the level of referring to him as "fakenaldo", like some random troll on goal.com's comment section

If you're going to post a lot of stats to back up your arguments, at least try to hide your bias.

He has done nothing to earn respect, instead he's faking a lot of matches, like CL-final, faking fouls, getting help from his referee pals and so on. I mean Messi has already more goals than him this season excluding penalties, yet he has 9 goals more overall.

Valkyrja wrote:

adamdar wrote:

Lord Awesome wrote:
I've been saying that Messi hasn't been the best since 2009 only because after season I've noticed Ronaldo was on top. Stats or results can't really tell you that but performances can but that's for another thread. What I can say here is that I knew as soon as Xavi declined so would Barca, and Messi, while still second best, started to wane. Not in his form but in his numbers. All I'm saying is I saw that one coming a mile away whereas Ronaldo has remained consistantly above him overall.

Now I apologize for what I said about Messi deserving the award. I must say though, even if he was the one to lead during the WC I only notice that he was only successful in the group stage while in the latter stages it was Masch who really came through for Argentina, IMO. Messi did contribute one assist in the latter stages (and a pen against the Netherlands if you wanna count that too) but really one has to admit that Messi didn't really seem outstanding beyond that regardless of what system was played. Certainly wasn't the best player for Argentina then, IMO.

You can say I hate Messi but really I don't dislike or "hate" him. All I do is try and put him on level to where I believe he is at. Nothing more.

Since 2009? Messi is best even today. What you mean by being best? If you open livescore.com and rate players then its ok. But CR was never better than Messi in actual play

You say you dont talk about stats. But is there anything except stats CR was better at? What else he does except scoring? He is on bale level in actual play without scoring. Isco is better player than him if we dont count scoring

About Xavi. Last game Xavi didnt play and Messi showed his best performance since 2013. Do you really think Xavi makes Messi good? For me Messi was better when he played with Fabregas. Fabregas loved unexpected passes and he had great through balls. Xavi prefers safe short passes. Messi loves players like Iniesta and Fabregas. Isco Ozil also would do great with Messi. So any big team have these great passers. Dont tell me that CR doesnt have them

Watch cr's and messi's performance against atletico in last week if you dont believe messi is even better today

Messi was pretty much invisible in the previous 5 or 6 matches vs Atletico. In CL last year he ran as much as Pinto iirc. I'm not saying that Ronaldo is better but that's a stupid way to compare the two

PS : And you also say that Isco is better than Ronaldo

CR also was invisible against them. Invisible Messi still was better than invisible CR

I didnt say Isco was better overall. I said in actual play.if we dont count scoring

I can't say he is the "best ever", but as an attacker, he is by far the best I have ever seen in terms of his variation. The closest in terms of ability that I have seen is R9, but his injuries really hampered injuries. It's too difficult to judge across eras. He is up there with Di Stefano, Cruyff and Pele without a doubt. The best attacker of this generation by a some distance.