Re: The Lionel Messi Appreciation Thread & Fan Club II

[Great Leader Sprucenuce]

I'm not defending this

[Harmonica]

What truly amazing teams Brazil 97 and 99 were, with Ronaldo and Rivaldo being so much less important.

[farfan]

I'm not defending this

Harmonica is breaking new grounds in statistics imo .

" involved " weighs as much as goals scored ? fascinating stuff .

[Harmonica]

I'm not defending this

Harmonica is breaking new grounds in statistics imo .

" involved " weighs as much as goals scored ? fascinating stuff .

Any part of those can be the most important part, needing the most quality. Have you ever watched football?

[Harmonica]

Added Francescoli.

Copa America MVP

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)

CA15 Messi 10 (1 + 3 + 6) out of 10 team goals = 100% importance (+2 SO goals), runner-up
CA11 Suarez 6 (4 + 2 + 0) out of 9 team goals = 67% importance (+1 SO goal), champion
CA07 Robinho 10 (6 + 0 + 4) out of 15 team goals = 67% importance (+1 SO goal), champion
CA04 Adriano 9 (7 + 2 + 0) out of 13 team goals = 69% importance (+2 SO goals), champion
CA01 Guevara 5 (3 + 1 + 1) out of 7 team goals = 71% importance, 3rd
CA99 Rivaldo 8 (5 + 2 + 1) out of 17 team goals = 47% importance, champion
CA97 Ronaldo 9 (5 + 2 + 2) out of 22 team goals = 41% importance, champion
CA95 Francescoli 6 (2 + 1 + 3) out of 11 team goals = 55% importance (+1 SO goal), champion

[farfan]

I'm not defending this

Harmonica is breaking new grounds in statistics imo .

" involved " weighs as much as goals scored ? fascinating stuff .

Any part of those can be the most important part, needing the most quality. Have you ever watched football?

i watched enough football to know that  a last second  FINAL  equaliser like this one

is worth more than Messi's " involvement "  in Higuan's goal via unintended  one meter pass in a 6-1 thrashing .

apparently that one game against Paraguay made Messi the greatest player in Copa America history .

[Valkyrja]

Why are we comparing champions with runner-ups ?

[Harmonica]

Harmonica is breaking new grounds in statistics imo .

" involved " weighs as much as goals scored ? fascinating stuff .

Any part of those can be the most important part, needing the most quality. Have you ever watched football?

i watched enough football to know that  a last second  FINAL  equaliser like this one



is worth more than Messi's " involvement "  in Higuan's goal via unintended  one meter pass in a 6-1 thrashing .

apparently that one game against Paraguay made Messi the greatest player in Copa America history .

Messi provided perfect chance to score for either Lavezzi or Higuain dribbling 2 players in 90+2 to win CA15, it would have been the part needing most quality, not the assist, or the tap-in.

[farfan]

Any part of those can be the most important part, needing the most quality. Have you ever watched football?

i watched enough football to know that  a last second  FINAL  equaliser like this one



is worth more than Messi's " involvement "  in Higuan's goal via unintended  one meter pass in a 6-1 thrashing .

apparently that one game against Paraguay made Messi the greatest player in Copa America history .

Messi provided perfect chance to score for either Lavezzi or Higuain in 90+2 to win CA15, it would have been the part needing most quality, not the assist, or the tap-in.

it could've been , it should be a case by case thing at the very least .

no way some random mishit deflected shot that ends up as an unintended assist is worth the same as Ronaldo's solo goal vs Paraguay in 1997 for example .

[Harmonica]

i watched enough football to know that  a last second  FINAL  equaliser like this one



is worth more than Messi's " involvement "  in Higuan's goal via unintended  one meter pass in a 6-1 thrashing .

apparently that one game against Paraguay made Messi the greatest player in Copa America history .

Messi provided perfect chance to score for either Lavezzi or Higuain in 90+2 to win CA15, it would have been the part needing most quality, not the assist, or the tap-in.

it could've been , it should be a case by case thing at the very least .

no way some random mishit deflected shot that ends up as an unintended assist is worth the same as Ronaldo's solo goal vs Paraguay in 1997 for example .

They average themselves out, Messi dribbled and got fouled far more for his input in CA15 than Ronaldo did in CA97.

[Myesyats]

Dani Alves: "Messi is much better than Cristiano Ronaldo. Messi has influence on the play, and Cristiano - no."

[Harmonica]

When Maradona came to Argentina, they went from champions to #11 in WC, and #5 to #8 in CA.
When Messi came to Argentina, they when from #18 to #6 in WC, and #2 to #2 in CA.

When Maradona left from Argentina, they went from #10 to #6 in WC, and #3 to champions in CA
When Messi left from Argentina, they went from ?

[jibers]

When Maradona came to Argentina, they went from champions to #11 in WC, and #5 to #8 in CA.
When Messi came to Argentina, they when from #18 to #6 in WC, and #2 to #2 in CA.

When Maradona left from Argentina, they went from #10 to #6 in WC, and #3 to champions in CA
When Messi left from Argentina, they went from ?

Maradona 1 WC
Messi 0 WC

[Beautiful Football]

One word "Club Player". Until he wins some legit title with Argentina, Nowhere  near Maradona.

[Myesyats]

Pls. He carried those bottlers to 2 finals in a span of 2 years and it's not his fault he is condemned to play with idiots and chokers.

The fact that he has won nada with Argentina means absolutely nothing and Messi is by far the better player.

[Beautiful Football]

Pls. He carried those bottlers to 2 finals in a span of 2 years and it's not his fault he is condemned to play with idiots and chokers.

The fact that he has won nada with Argentina means absolutely nothing and Messi is by far the better player.

If Messi Finish his carrier and own 0 major trophy with Argentina, trust me 99% people will rate Maradona higher, doesn't matter what you say. which is fair.

[Harmonica]

Pls. He carried those bottlers to 2 finals in a span of 2 years and it's not his fault he is condemned to play with idiots and chokers.

The fact that he has won nada with Argentina means absolutely nothing and Messi is by far the better player.

If Messi Finish his carrier and own 0 major trophy with Argentina, trust me 99% people will rate Maradona higher, doesn't matter what you say. which is fair.

Argentine paper Ole had inquiry 3 years ago who was the best Argentine player in history, Messi won the 200k poll with over of 50% votes. Should be close to 80% by now. Btw don't have a heart attack.

[futbol]

Actually Argentina's defense carried them to those finals.

Played 7 knockout games (WC 14 and CA 15).

5/7 clean sheets.

2/7 games where they conceded they only conceded 1 goal (very late against Germany and unimportant goal in 6-1 trashing against Paraguay).

Their offense let them down.

4/7 times went to extra time (would have been 5 if Copa America rules weren't weird).

3/7 times went to penalties.

Leader of the defense (Mascherano) did his job. Leader of the offense (Messi) choked.

[Harmonica]

Argentina is good defensively mostly because of Messi, teams park the bus because of Messi, he ties more opponents than anybody.

When Masch was captain Argentina got WCQ 4th, WC10 5th and CA11 7th. Since Messi was made captain Argentina has won WCQ and made back to back finals in WC14 and CA15. Mascherano may have a louder voice, but Messi is the true leader, people look up to him.

[Harmonica]

Xaviesta+Villa

WC10 champion (Villa Bronze Ball)
Euro 08 champion (Xavi Best Player)
Euro 12 champion (Iniesta Best Player)

Involved collectively 25/32 goals.

Messi @28

WC14 runner-up (Golden Ball)
CA07 runner-up (Best Young Player)
CA15 runner-up (MVP)

Involved in 24/34 goals.

That's the problem, Messi has to do the work of three players for Argentina.

[Harmonica]

Messi has scored all the 10 (4xSO) competitive penalties for Argentina, 2x in WCu20 final, 1x in CA, 3x in WCQ, 2xSO in CA QF, 1xSO in CA final and 1xSO in WC SF. #nervesofsteel

[izzy]

Messi has scored all the 10 (4xSO) competitive penalties for Argentina, 2x in WCu20 final, 1x in CA, 3x in WCQ, 2xSO in CA QF, 1xSO in CA final and 1xSO in WC SF. #nervesofsteel

Oh............. so NOW Penalties mean something........?

[Harmonica]

Messi has scored all the 10 (4xSO) competitive penalties for Argentina, 2x in WCu20 final, 1x in CA, 3x in WCQ, 2xSO in CA QF, 1xSO in CA final and 1xSO in WC SF. #nervesofsteel

Oh............. so NOW Penalties mean something........?

Mostly about mental toughness.

[jibers]

Messi has scored all the 10 (4xSO) competitive penalties for Argentina, 2x in WCu20 final, 1x in CA, 3x in WCQ, 2xSO in CA QF, 1xSO in CA final and 1xSO in WC SF. #nervesofsteel

Oh............. so NOW Penalties mean something........?

Mostly about mental toughness.

So when CR scores Pens he's stat padding, when Messi scores he's got mental toughness....

Xaviesta+Villa

WC10 champion (Villa Bronze Ball)
Euro 08 champion (Xavi Best Player)
Euro 12 champion (Iniesta Best Player)

Involved collectively 25/32 goals.

Messi @28

WC14 runner-up (Golden Ball)
CA07 runner-up (Best Young Player)
CA15 runner-up (MVP)

Involved in 24/34 goals.

That's the problem, Messi has to do the work of three players for Argentina.

[izzy]

Mostly about mental toughness.

Yep, Mental toughness.......................... that was probably why you chose to discredit them when CR was outscoring Messi....... Penalties were too daunting for Messi.

I understand. Penalties and International tournaments are too much for some.

[Harmonica]

Mostly about mental toughness.

Yep, Mental toughness.......................... that was probably why you chose to discredit them when CR was outscoring Messi....... Penalties were too daunting for Messi.

I understand. Penalties and International tournaments are too much for some.

When Fakenaldo scores them, he scores them to himself, he's missed twice in CL SF, and once in CL final, and just this year lost for Refdrid the league. He was scoring them fine when Ballon d'Or was on the line, but when the title was on the line he pissed in his pants like he always does, chickened from the first penalty even in Euro SF.

[Sponsored content]