Pep Guardiola's adventures in Manchester City

Harmonica wrote:

free_cat wrote:

Harmonica wrote:
Why would I be kidding? Messi got injured, played injured and Bayern scored 2 legit goals in their home. You don't see 2-0 changing at all with fit Messi?

That's because the dominant Barca was growing old and stale, Messi was carrying not dominant Barca 11-13, in the middle Guardiola bailing the ship. It's easily shown in the statistics.

So, let me get your theory out open: you are saying that if Messi is fit, it doesn't matter who's the coach, Barça will win most titles, right?

Then explain Tata Martino season...? Messi suffered injuries but he wasn't injured in the decisive part of the season.

I just gave the exact same analogy of "what if".

Barca lost the 13-14 league with onside Messi goal wrongfully called offside.

Theory of "what if" doesn't work when it's a 7-0 aggreggate.

Again, it's not only about results, but we were the best under Pep. Had we won anything under Martino, we would have fluked it. That goal was legit, but I'm pretty sure Atletico would have tied anyway. When we scored, they started playing and tied in 10 min.

free_cat wrote:

Harmonica wrote:

free_cat wrote:


So, let me get your theory out open: you are saying that if Messi is fit, it doesn't matter who's the coach, Barça will win most titles, right?

Then explain Tata Martino season...? Messi suffered injuries but he wasn't injured in the decisive part of the season.

I just gave the exact same analogy of "what if".

Barca lost the 13-14 league with onside Messi goal wrongfully called offside.

Theory of "what if" doesn't work when it's a 7-0 aggreggate.

Again, it's not only about results, but we were the best under Pep. Had we won anything under Martino, we would have fluked it. That goal was legit, but I'm pretty sure Atletico would have tied anyway. When we scored, they started playing and tied in 10 min.

Logic works every time.

We were best 08-Volcano-11, 11-12 the tactical edge was already being found out players not giving their all, only Messi pwning everyone masked this.



11-13 Messi was being directly involved 38% of points in the league campaigns, in comparison Maradona did that once in Napoli (89-90). Now it's again more balanced, Messi not needing to carry as much, and we are again dominant.

So... what you are saying is that no, any coach can't win everything with Barça's team from 2007 to 2014, but any coach can definitely win every title with current Barça squad?

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:If it was the players explain why Barca needed to go out and buy Neymar and Suarez while looking like nowhere near the same team post Pep under 3 different managers.

But people are clearly that thick and I'm just about done trying to explain sense to idiots.

You serious? There is a thing called "decline". Xavi was already past his best in 2012, the EC final against Italy was one of his last memorable performances on the big stage. Not to mention Abidal and Puyol effectively retiring and leaving Barca paper thin at the back. Furthermore Pep filled the squad with hipster garbage signings like Fabregas and Alexis and trusted Pedro after Villa broke his leg. Do you realize we went into a CL semi-final against Bayern with a forward line like this:


* post leg break, way past his prime



It took a while for the club to realize that we ain't winning shit with Fabregas, Pedro, Alexis, Song etc. and it took a while to sort it all out to become great again. But the post Pep era can't be called anything else but a massive success: 1 league title with 100 points, a treble and in pole position to win at least another domestic double.

No one says Pep is a garbage coach. At least no one who is serious. Of course you can do a whole lot of things wrong even with a super squad. But strangely all the Pep apologists remain quiet when it comes to praising Luis Enrique who is doing ever better than Pep. 50 freaking wins in 60 games in his first season. Defense as stable as in Pep's heydays. Scoring records broken. Unbeaten in currently 26 games. Funny how in this case it is all down to "MSN" but with Pep it was his coaching genius and not the super squad he had.

Dante wrote:

Ion Creanga wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:and why in his right mind should he go for the "hard" option lmao

Are you kidding?
because of the challenge maybe?

why does Diego Simeone still coach Atletico? Why did Totti spent his entire career at Roma?

Money and glory is not the purpose in life for some people, believe it or not.

Have you never solved a difficult problem or passed a hard challenge where odds were against you, and through your own habits, hard work, and ideas you did it? That's winning in life.

That's more valuable for me, than money or accomplishing something in an easy enviromnment, when odds are with you.

I'm not blaming Guardiola for taking the easier path now, the guy has accomplished so much in his life through his hard work and competence, he deserves the right to chose whatever suits him best. It's not like he landed in this situation by luck.

When you (or anyone here who spoke of challenge) get the chance to pass on 20+ million euros a year for 3 years , get to talk about taking challenges then . Frankly , for anybody who's achieved 2 shits in his life , to even get there you've surpassed any challenge you can possibly imagine . Not arbitrary romantic challenges , the actual ones. Like lose hair from the stress it takes , just to please stupid random people that praise you today and shit on you tomorrow . Probably the very least one , that .

But it takes one to see one , as they say . Frankly , had he stayed at Barcelona , and he could have till today even , people would have said " see only at Barcelona , still to prove himself elsewhere" . Pep leaves his home , his assurances , his country , the place he was a god almost , his brilliant team which was anything he ever wanted in coaching , with the best player in the world , all that behind , and on to new things. If that doesn't take massive balls , i don't know what is. Joins Bayern , does what he does. People again call him a coward or takes the easy way always. Again no challenge with City... but had he stayed at Bayern ?  "winning the bundesfodder by default kek , bigger challenge on the playstation"..  and this will probably repeat itself in 3 years from now when he will be leaving City .

So , other than that. What you value more than money .. well it's certainly not that kind of money , is it ? Who even gets paid 20m+ a year to tell people how to kick a ball?? If that's not winning in life , i don't know what the fk is , rest of us may as well just kill ourselves (:

And money and glory do come when you do the things you describe to the levels Guardiola has achieved . You say he's earning it , and if that's the case , then that's only because he has a real purpose . Money and glory come hand in hand when you succeed in any case. And when it's that much , you know you're worth your salt regardless of what outsiders say , wouldn't you agree? Apparently some don't .

And Totti stayed at Roma because he loved Roma , not because of a challenge. Still earned great money and glory , still was in a top club , still won stuff. Just like Wenger stayed at Arsenal because he loved Arsenal and not because of any challenge and repeat same as Totti(and Wenger is from another time , today a dying breed , exception to the rule basically). Del Piero stayed with Juventus in Serie B because he loved Juventus. Not because it was any challenge and repeat same as with Totti and Wenger. Still the same for many many others.

They aren't doing it for any arbitrary challenge. They are doing it because they love their teams too much . That's not the canon , but the exception to the rule in a sport ruled by professionalism . Pep still loved and he still does love Barcelona like no other , he did a similar thing as a player after all. Thing is he is a coach now , different thing and felt he had to leave for his own reasons , choose to believe them or not , up to you. Challenge had nothing to do with it . 99.9% can't even deal with Guardiola's challenges , let alone define what is one for him.

ok, i'll start with the blue part. I know that Totti, ADP, Buffon, Gerrard etc. stayed cause they loved their clubs, what i was trying to say initially was the reason they stayed at their clubs, was not money, it was something else, and also, challenge would be another reason for somebody to do something hard, not saying that it was their reason.

Green part, 100% agree, he definitely surpassed many challenges, from being a kid to being a football legend and after, a coach legend, i mean you can't achieve more than that in this direction.

Orange part, no, he didn't win in life in my point of view because he makes 20 millions to tell people how to kick ball. I have an accuintance, who's wealth is worth a few hundreds millions, and we're talking eastern Europe, here. His kid is around 20 something years, and he lives a shit life, he's fat as fck, he doesn't do anything all day, except playing roulette, and buying expensive shits. So yeah, the kid has hundreds millions for doing virtually nothing, i don't think he's more accomplished than Guardiola who doesn't have that kind of money.

I think Guardiola's a winner in life for the reason I stated above, in the green life, because he surpassed every obstacle that was put in front of him to become a legend in the sport. Of course money would come with that, as a result, and yes, they are an important part, but i don't think they are a good indicator for success.

And to give you another example. University teacher (Math professor, and a very good one) at a very good university (Polytechnic) in Romania, he has a business with pharmacies, i think his wealth is arround several hundred thousands euros, to 1 million something like that. His university wages are nothing compared to that, but guess what? Doing maths makes him a lot more happier, and he spends much time doing maths and research. Also, the mathematician Grigori Perelman solved Poincare's conjecture, a millenium problem, and he rejected the prize of 1 million dolars for it. I'm giving examples from this domain, because that's what i'm doing, it's where i have knowledge, i'm sure there are examples like that from other domains like medicine, psychology etc . I'm sure that there are many more people like that. Maybe those are not successful people in your opinion, for me they are, because they do what they want, living the lifes they want, following their passion and don't give a fck about social conditioning.

And agree, with what you said in the beginning of the post, and i think that being a professional footballer or coach is underrated as a level of difficulty, facing always the stress, the criticism, the enduring hard trainings etc. is a tough road to get there. Also now, Djokovic wins everything in tennis, and makes it look easy. But those 14 hours he dedicates from his everyday life for tennis, are rarely discussed.. The guy even had a nose surgery trying to cure his unknown respiratory problems a few years ago, he did everything you can imagine to get where he is. And yeah, people like that, basically faced enormous challenges, to get there.

futbol_bill wrote:Dante, you do realize you are scoulding children!

yeah, the occasional useless opinion can't be missed when something serious is discussed ...

Yaya's Agent said he'll probably leave, who do you think he'll buy and sell?

I agree with almost everything you said Ion, great post.

But here's what I don't get: What makes you think the City job won't be enjoyable for Pep? That it won't be engaging and challenging? If he picked the Qatar option like Dante said, this reaction would make a lot more sense. But to me, this is not someone selling himself out for an easy job. This is someone looking at the various MASSIVE challenges he could take on, and picking the one with the most attractive conditions. The best resources, the best administration, the best youth system, etc. But this won't by any means be a cakewalk and Guardiola isn't picking it to be a cakewalk, and that's what frustrates me for than anything else. The quite frankly brain dead idea that he's going to stroll into Manchester, give the board a list of 11 world class players to buy, wach them play head tennis in training everyday, and win the treble. Football doesn't work that way.

I completely agree with you on the idea that money isn't everything, and that you should pick a job where you will enjoy your job and have your skills pushed to their limits. But why don't you think City would be such a job?

Their best player is made of glass, they regularly need to be carried by a 32 year old crybaby, and they've never gotten past the CL R16 IN THEIR HISTORY. What could possibly make anyone think this is an easy job?

free_cat wrote:So... what you are saying is that no, any coach can't win everything with Barça's team from 2007 to 2014, but any coach can definitely win every title with current Barça squad?

No, what I'm saying the dominant cycle was ending with Rijkaard, and with Guardiola, Guardiola just left a year earlier. I think one of Guardiola's motives was that he didn't have enough power to change the squad anymore, or that he didn't see how he could change it enough.

Cruijf wrote:I agree with almost everything you said Ion, great post.

But here's what I don't get: What makes you think the City job won't be enjoyable for Pep? That it won't be engaging and challenging? If he picked the Qatar option like Dante said, this reaction would make a lot more sense. But to me, this is not someone selling himself out for an easy job. This is someone looking at the various MASSIVE challenges he could take on, and picking the one with the most attractive conditions. The best resources, the best administration, the best youth system, etc. But this won't by any means be a cakewalk and Guardiola isn't picking it to be a cakewalk, and that's what frustrates me for than anything else. The quite frankly brain dead idea that he's going to stroll into Manchester, give the board a list of 11 world class players to buy, wach them play head tennis in training everyday, and win the treble. Football doesn't work that way.

I completely agree with you on the idea that money isn't everything, and that you should pick a job where you will enjoy your job and have your skills pushed to their limits. But why don't you think City would be such a job?

Their best player is made of glass, they regularly need to be carried by a 32 year old crybaby, and they've never gotten past the CL R16 IN THEIR HISTORY. What could possibly make anyone think this is an easy job?

Actually i don't think he has an easy challenge to face at City, definitely he has a way more tough challenge ahead, than previous Barcelona and Bayern experience, but easier than let's say Arsenal or Milan jobs, but maybe he didn't even have the possibility to chose the likes of those, and maybe he'll do it at a later point in his career.
Also, coaching in a fcked up league like EPL, is pretty hard, we see that good coaches and players have difficult times to find a direction there. Agree with the last point, City doesn't look that great, especially compared to the top of Europe.

futbol wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:If it was the players explain why Barca needed to go out and buy Neymar and Suarez while looking like nowhere near the same team post Pep under 3 different managers.

But people are clearly that thick and I'm just about done trying to explain sense to idiots.

You serious? There is a thing called "decline". Xavi was already past his best in 2012, the EC final against Italy was one of his last memorable performances on the big stage. Not to mention Abidal and Puyol effectively retiring and leaving Barca paper thin at the back. Furthermore Pep filled the squad with hipster garbage signings like Fabregas and Alexis and trusted Pedro after Villa broke his leg. Do you realize we went into a CL semi-final against Bayern with a forward line like this:

Villa* Fabregas Pedro

* post leg break, way past his prime



It took a while for the club to realize that we ain't winning shit with Fabregas, Pedro, Alexis, Song etc. and it took a while to sort it all out to become great again. But the post Pep era can't be called anything else but a massive success: 1 league title with 100 points, a treble and in pole position to win at least another domestic double.

No one says Pep is a garbage coach. At least no one who is serious. Of course you can do a whole lot of things wrong even with a super squad. But strangely all the Pep apologists remain quiet when it comes to praising Luis Enrique who is doing ever better than Pep. 50 freaking wins in 60 games in his first season. Defense as stable as in Pep's heydays. Scoring records broken. Unbeaten in currently 26 games. Funny how in this case it is all down to "MSN" but with Pep it was his coaching genius and not the super squad he had.

I can understand why Enrique isn't rated as highly as Pep.

Pep revolutionised football with his philosophy and started the Barca revolution. Right now Pep is the wheel who started it all, Enrique is the spoke on it.

If Enrique did what he's doing now at another club, I'm sure he'd get more recognition.

You mean like Ancelotti who only won the CL because of Mourinho's foundations at Madrid?

futbol wrote:You mean like Ancelotti who only won the CL because of Mourinho's foundations at Madrid?

Not really. The only reason why Mourinho could be associated with Ancelotti is because he happened to be the coach for the 3 years prior and put the club in the spotlight due to his controversial personality and antics. He won 1 major title which is nothing spectacular.

Pep on the other hand is associated with the current Barca side for all the right reasons.

Onyx wrote:

futbol wrote:You mean like Ancelotti who only won the CL because of Mourinho's foundations at Madrid?

Not really. The only reason why Mourinho could be associated with Ancelotti is because he happened to be the coach for the 3 years prior and put the club in the spotlight due to his controversial personality and antics. He won 1 major title which is nothing spectacular.

Pep on the other hand is associated with the current Barca side for all the right reasons.

Yeah, that's obviously garbage. If Mourinho doesn't take you from eternal CL R16 bottlers to consecutive semi-finalists and 100 point La Liga winners you ain't winning shit in 13/14. There was a lot of ground work done by Mourinho which made you real competitors again even if it only resulted in 1 major trophy during his own tenure.

I'm not sure if I love this thread or think it's a cesspool tbh

It's funny how Futbol calls anyone pro Pep apologist yet he's a bigger hater than all of them combined.

Even to the point he lies about the team they used against Bayern.

futbol wrote:

Onyx wrote:

futbol wrote:You mean like Ancelotti who only won the CL because of Mourinho's foundations at Madrid?

Not really. The only reason why Mourinho could be associated with Ancelotti is because he happened to be the coach for the 3 years prior and put the club in the spotlight due to his controversial personality and antics. He won 1 major title which is nothing spectacular.

Pep on the other hand is associated with the current Barca side for all the right reasons.

Yeah, that's obviously garbage. If Mourinho doesn't take you from eternal CL R16 bottlers to consecutive semi-finalists and 100 point La Liga winners you ain't winning shit in 13/14. There was a lot of ground work done by Mourinho which made you real competitors again even if it only resulted in 1 major trophy during his own tenure.

Obviously Mourinho's preferred " big game " midfield of Alonso-Khedira-Lass/Pepe laid the blueprint for the very fluid and game changer midfield of Di maria - Alonso - Modric implemented by Carlo .

Yeah... putting Di Maria in the midfield, getting Bale and setting up in a 433/442 depending on the opponent was all inspired by Mou and his 4231 with 2 holding mids, Ozil as the AM and Di Maria as the winger. It's clear.

farfan wrote:

futbol wrote:

Onyx wrote:


Not really. The only reason why Mourinho could be associated with Ancelotti is because he happened to be the coach for the 3 years prior and put the club in the spotlight due to his controversial personality and antics. He won 1 major title which is nothing spectacular.

Pep on the other hand is associated with the current Barca side for all the right reasons.

Yeah, that's obviously garbage. If Mourinho doesn't take you from eternal CL R16 bottlers to consecutive semi-finalists and 100 point La Liga winners you ain't winning shit in 13/14. There was a lot of ground work done by Mourinho which made you real competitors again even if it only resulted in 1 major trophy during his own tenure.

Obviously Mourinho's  preferred " big game " midfield of    Alonso-Khedira-Lass/Pepe  laid the blueprint for the very fluid and game changer midfield of   Di maria - Alonso - Modric implemented by Carlo .  

sportsczy wrote:Yeah...  putting Di Maria in the midfield, getting Bale and setting up in a 433/442 depending on the opponent was all inspired by Mou and his 4231 with 2 holding mids, Ozil as the AM and Di Maria as the winger.  It's clear.

Maybe read and grasp the whole context first.

We were in a mental slump before Mourinho that's obvious. He instilled in the team that winning mentality that had been lacking before

While I don't share Fuzzy's rather harsh opinion on Pep, the great man actually would still need to "prove" himself in England. What's that, he has proved himself already. Technically, yes but at the same time, no. Yes in that he is a genuine world class manager, a manager whose abilities should not be called into question by anyone honestly.

But similar to Klopp, this is a new job in a new country thus he would need to "prove" once again that he can deliver for another club which I'm genuinely sure he can. I'm pretty certain his appointment at Bayern was met with some skepticism despite his massive success at Barcelona. It probably would be significantly less skepticism at City but they'll still be some who doubts him.

This is an exciting time to be a City fan/Premface. And there is nothing wrong with criticising Pep. We criticise professional footballers all the time, hell, all the crap Ramos, for example, receives regularly here is laughable since he'll probably beat most of us with ease.

futbol wrote:

Maybe read and grasp the whole context first.

Mourinho is like that ex that one would despise with everything you have but taught you how to actually have sex properly.

So because Mourinho won a measly league title in 3 years , we should credit it him with every single trophy won by Madrid for the foreseeable future ? As if Madrid was some scrub team that wasn't used to winning before he came . ( 2 back to back league titles just two years before his arrival )

Crediting Mourinho with breaking the round of 16 jynx is just silly .
Spending 9 figures on players each year combined with getting soft draws will eventually help you overcome that hurdle regardless of who's coaching .
But hey , History will always remember Mourinho as the savior who ended the misery and conquered 2010-2011 Lyon and CSKA Moscow .

futbol wrote:

Onyx wrote:

futbol wrote:You mean like Ancelotti who only won the CL because of Mourinho's foundations at Madrid?

Not really. The only reason why Mourinho could be associated with Ancelotti is because he happened to be the coach for the 3 years prior and put the club in the spotlight due to his controversial personality and antics. He won 1 major title which is nothing spectacular.

Pep on the other hand is associated with the current Barca side for all the right reasons.

Yeah, that's obviously garbage. If Mourinho doesn't take you from eternal CL R16 bottlers to consecutive semi-finalists and 100 point La Liga winners you ain't winning shit in 13/14. There was a lot of ground work done by Mourinho which made you real competitors again even if it only resulted in 1 major trophy during his own tenure.

Pellegrini finished with 96 points in 2010. Schuster won the title in 2008. Any decent manager can win La Liga/come close with Real Madrid while racking up a streak against scrubs.

Mourinho really didn't do anything. It only seems like he did because he put the club in the spotlight with his antics. With the players we had we were bound to eventually break the last 16 curse.

This is what Pep wants supposedly

That would be a disgusting team.