If you had Menezes job!

There has been a lot of fuss and debate at the moment about Menezes' selections and tactics: Had you been the coach, how would you have set the team up?

This is mine,

-------------------------Julio Cesar--------------------------
Maicon---------Lucio------------------T.Silva----------A.Santos
---------------Lucas/Sandro--------Ramires--------------------
Pato/Robinho---------------------------------------------Marcelo
------------------Neymar--------------------------------------
---------------------------------Fred/Pato----------------------

The selections are debatable but I'm pretty sure had Menezes dropped the CAM (Ganso) and gone wing-play 4-4-2, Brazil could have been devastating
The exclusions of Hernanes, Marcelo and Nilmar were also pretty ridiculous. I know he is supposedly building for the future, but all 3 of those player are younger than Elano, who got in even though he was rubbish.

For a single match I'd probably be tempted to follow something along the lines of this, with Robinho and Hulk as the first substitutes.


However given Lucio's age and Brazil's need to build for the World Cup now, I would use Lucio only as a reserve in the squad with the likely partnership of Silva and Luiz being allowed to develop together. I'd return Maicon to the backline for a 4-2-3-1 then award places on the basis of form and national team performance with Melo, Ramires, Robinho, Hulk, Nilmar and Willian competing with those already named. Might Luis Fabiano return in the future?

dostoevsky wrote:For a single match I'd probably be tempted to follow something along the lines of this, with Robinho and Hulk as the first substitutes.

Cesar

Thiago Silva---Lucio---David Luiz

Alves---Lucas---Hernanes---Marcelo

Ganso

Pato---Neymar

However given Lucio's age and Brazil's need to build for the World Cup now, I would use Lucio only as a reserve in the squad with the likely partnership of Silva and Luiz being allowed to develop together. I'd return Maicon to the backline for a 4-2-3-1 then award places on the basis of form and national team performance with Melo, Ramires, Robinho, Hulk, Nilmar and Willian competing with those already named. Might Luis Fabiano return in the future?

ah the 3-5-2. A very valid option as well. I offered an alternative that does not need a trequartista purely becuase I thought Ganso's selection was not justified. Trust the SerieA tactician to come back with a formation that does allow a CAM, so predictable :lol!: . Honestly, that is a great looking formation and Brazil succeeded with a 3-5-2 in 2002 if I'm not mistaken, but as you said, Lucio's pace does become a problem.

I can't remember the last time Brazil used a dedicated wing play formation... the days Leonardo was still playing football? I thought it would have been interesting to see them change their style a bit, not only using fullbacks for width.

If I had Menezes' job, I'd be wondering where have all dominant Brazilian midfield players disappeared.

Giovanni10 wrote:ah the 3-5-2. A very valid option as well. I offered an alternative that does not need a trequartista purely becuase I thought Ganso's selection was not justified. Trust the SerieA tactician to come back with a formation that does allow a CAM, so predictable :lol!: . Honestly, that is a great looking formation and Brazil succeeded with a 3-5-2 in 2002 if I'm not mistaken, but as you said, Lucio's pace does become a problem.

I can't remember the last time Brazil used a dedicated wing play formation... the days Leonardo was still playing football? I thought it would have been interesting to see them change their style a bit, not only using fullbacks for width.

Haha, touché. In my defence given that Brazil can look mostly to the future now rather than for immediate dominance they can afford to be patient and allow Ganso time to gain confidence on the international stage. Even though he didn't perform as hoped he managed to be involved in key moments still and the experience will be invaluable in the future. Just wait for Bhends to come in and give the same formation based around Coutinho. :geek:

The 3-5-2 was very much inspired by the memories of 2002, however even without Lucio it might still be plausible especially given the time that Brazil have to find a third centre-back, whilst Alex could potentially fit in as well if he plays often enough for his team, be it Chelsea or Bayern.

I think that if Brazil were to use wing play then it would be unwise to use Pato out wide, despite his formidable pace, as his finishing remains his greatest asset, his vision and passing are suspect and it may lead to more frequent injuries if he is forced to act as a major ball carrier. Players such as Bastos may be able to return to such a line-up however, whilst it may reduce the pressure on a few youngsters making their debuts if they can be given a role out wide. Also I've just realised that I never mentioned Kaka in my post. Sorry Ricky, I still love you, you can play whenever you want. An experienced head would likely have a great effect on the line-ups we proposed, not to mention the fact that he's a CAM.

dostoevsky wrote:

Giovanni10 wrote:ah the 3-5-2. A very valid option as well. I offered an alternative that does not need a trequartista purely becuase I thought Ganso's selection was not justified. Trust the SerieA tactician to come back with a formation that does allow a CAM, so predictable :lol!: . Honestly, that is a great looking formation and Brazil succeeded with a 3-5-2 in 2002 if I'm not mistaken, but as you said, Lucio's pace does become a problem.

I can't remember the last time Brazil used a dedicated wing play formation... the days Leonardo was still playing football? I thought it would have been interesting to see them change their style a bit, not only using fullbacks for width.

Haha, touché. In my defence given that Brazil can look mostly to the future now rather than for immediate dominance they can afford to be patient and allow Ganso time to gain confidence on the international stage. Even though he didn't perform as hoped he managed to be involved in key moments still and the experience will be invaluable in the future. Just wait for Bhends to come in and give the same formation based around Coutinho. :geek:

The 3-5-2 was very much inspired by the memories of 2002, however even without Lucio it might still be plausible especially given the time that Brazil have to find a third centre-back, whilst Alex could potentially fit in as well if he plays often enough for his team, be it Chelsea or Bayern.

I think that if Brazil were to use wing play then it would be unwise to use Pato out wide, despite his formidable pace, as his finishing remains his greatest asset, his vision and passing are suspect and it may lead to more frequent injuries if he is forced to act as a major ball carrier. Players such as Bastos may be able to return to such a line-up however, whilst it may reduce the pressure on a few youngsters making their debuts if they can be given a role out wide. Also I've just realised that I never mentioned Kaka in my post. Sorry Ricky, I still love you, you can play whenever you want. An experienced head would likely have a great effect on the line-ups we proposed, not to mention the fact that he's a CAM.

In a wing-play 4-4-2, it does become a problem, deciding who would be capable enough for the RM/RW position in that line up, considering Robinho would be suspect in tracking back. I do agree that Pato cannot play right, so he would definitely be a strike partner with Neymar.

I would say Hulk could play wide right but he is so darn selfish with the ball, which leaves Dani Alves. In theory, A left side with Marcelo and A.Santos; and a right side with Dani Alves and Maicon sounds god-like but it would take far too much adaptation for Dani Alves to master in such a short time with the national team, he would have to convert to right midfield for Barca as well which is an impossibility. Marcelo on the other hand has already played further up the left flank so he wouldn't need a training adjustment.

It appears both our formations pose selection problems. Your back 3 does not look solid. Aside from Lucio, all I can remember is David Luiz getting roasted by Chicharito, so in your 3-5-2 those wing-backs absolutely cannot be caught up the pitch when the opposing team tries to hit on the break.

Also, I've always thought Alex very underrated, even though he is big boy he is no slow coach. for your back 3 in the 3-5-2, I would actually suggest Juan,

Lining up David Luiz, Juan, T.Silva

Lucio's lack of pace is becoming a problem, in a 3-5-2 he will be exposed. Also Lucio enjoys forays forward, which is just going to clog up that 5 man midfield, so best to leave him out.

Of course the option would be to make Alves the right wing-back and use Maicon as an outside central defender:


------------------J.Cesar---------------------
-------Maicon-----Juan----------T.silva----
Alves------Lucas-----Ramires----Marcelo
------------------Ganso/Kaka---------------
---------Pato-------------------Neymar-----


There is one underlying factor here that kills the 3-5-2, and I think its blatantly apparent:

G.Silva + Ze Roberto >>>>>>>>>>> Lucas + Ramires

Not only is the midfield inferior to most national teams but the front pair of Neymar and Pato are too lightweight to make any significant inroads in the defence, imo neymar should've been a super sub in the tourney as his lack of experience and pressure greatly affected Brazil's play.

Giovanni10 wrote:In a wing-play 4-4-2, it does become a problem, deciding who would be capable enough for the RM/RW position in that line up, considering Robinho would be suspect in tracking back. I do agree that Pato cannot play right, so he would definitely be a strike partner with Neymar.

I would say Hulk could play wide right but he is so darn selfish with the ball, which leaves Dani Alves. In theory, A left side with Marcelo and A.Santos; and a right side with Dani Alves and Maicon sounds god-like but it would take far too much adaptation for Dani Alves to master in such a short time with the national team, he would have to convert to right midfield for Barca as well which is an impossibility. Marcelo on the other hand has already played further up the left flank so he wouldn't need a training adjustment.

It appears both our formations pose selection problems. Your back 3 does not look solid. Aside from Lucio, all I can remember is David Luiz getting roasted by Chicharito, so in your 3-5-2 those wing-backs absolutely cannot be caught up the pitch when the opposing team tries to hit on the break.

Also, I've always thought Alex very underrated, even though he is big boy he is no slow coach. for your back 3 in the 3-5-2, I would actually suggest Juan,

Lining up David Luiz, Juan, T.Silva

Lucio's lack of pace is becoming a problem, in a 3-5-2 he will be exposed. Also Lucio enjoys forays forward, which is just going to clog up that 5 man midfield, so best to leave him out.

Of course the option would be to make Alves the right wing-back and use Maicon as an outside central defender:


------------------J.Cesar---------------------
-------Maicon-----Juan----------T.silva----
Alves------Lucas-----Ramires----Marcelo
------------------Ganso/Kaka---------------
---------Pato-------------------Neymar-----


There is one underlying factor here that kills the 3-5-2, and I think its blatantly apparent:

G.Silva + Ze Roberto >>>>>>>>>>> Lucas + Ramires

Given Alves' failure to create an impact at the last World Cup whilst functioning in a RW role I wouldn't return him there, whilst his crossing is inconsistent so the team would need to have other distinct uses for Alves in order to get the most out of him.

As for the three man backline, both Thiago Silva and David Luiz are still improving and gaining more experience. Silva needs to be tested in the deeper stages of the Champions League however he has improved by leaps and bounds in the past two seasons and now needs to be refined and continue his good form. As for David Luiz, he has made mistakes however it's to be expected in the first six months of a new league and he is still quite young. His presence is also necessary for another reason in that it is essential that the back three be able to build play as well, something Luiz would best be entrusted with.

A year ago, I'd have included Juan in my line-up myself, however his past six months with Roma have been nothing short of disastrous. He was responsible for countless dropped points for Roma - he single handedly gave a relegation-bound Sampdoria three points - and lost all confidence as a leader. He can bounce back, however he currently doesn't warrant a call-up given his age which tends to indicate a decline not a blip in form. Maicon is also to great a creative force in my eyes to be restricted to holding his position, whilst he's not a particularly aggressive defender meaning the transition to a more disciplined, central role may be a problem, especially as he himself ages.

The central pairing itself is weaker than in 2002 as you pointed out, however the sacrifice for a more definite style of play may be worth the risk if the coach is willing to invest in the idea. If Ganso were to be dropped then a 4-3-3 with Lucas-Ramires-Hernanes and Neymar-Pato-Hulk could be a solution to any lack of midfield industry whilst allowing the forward line freedom to roam and provide width whilst still being a significant goal threat.

Mix between 3-3-1-3 and 3-5-2.

dostoevsky wrote:

Giovanni10 wrote:In a wing-play 4-4-2, it does become a problem, deciding who would be capable enough for the RM/RW position in that line up, considering Robinho would be suspect in tracking back. I do agree that Pato cannot play right, so he would definitely be a strike partner with Neymar.

I would say Hulk could play wide right but he is so darn selfish with the ball, which leaves Dani Alves. In theory, A left side with Marcelo and A.Santos; and a right side with Dani Alves and Maicon sounds god-like but it would take far too much adaptation for Dani Alves to master in such a short time with the national team, he would have to convert to right midfield for Barca as well which is an impossibility. Marcelo on the other hand has already played further up the left flank so he wouldn't need a training adjustment.

It appears both our formations pose selection problems. Your back 3 does not look solid. Aside from Lucio, all I can remember is David Luiz getting roasted by Chicharito, so in your 3-5-2 those wing-backs absolutely cannot be caught up the pitch when the opposing team tries to hit on the break.

Also, I've always thought Alex very underrated, even though he is big boy he is no slow coach. for your back 3 in the 3-5-2, I would actually suggest Juan,

Lining up David Luiz, Juan, T.Silva

Lucio's lack of pace is becoming a problem, in a 3-5-2 he will be exposed. Also Lucio enjoys forays forward, which is just going to clog up that 5 man midfield, so best to leave him out.

Of course the option would be to make Alves the right wing-back and use Maicon as an outside central defender:


------------------J.Cesar---------------------
-------Maicon-----Juan----------T.silva----
Alves------Lucas-----Ramires----Marcelo
------------------Ganso/Kaka---------------
---------Pato-------------------Neymar-----


There is one underlying factor here that kills the 3-5-2, and I think its blatantly apparent:

G.Silva + Ze Roberto >>>>>>>>>>> Lucas + Ramires

Given Alves' failure to create an impact at the last World Cup whilst functioning in a RW role I wouldn't return him there, whilst his crossing is inconsistent so the team would need to have other distinct uses for Alves in order to get the most out of him.

As for the three man backline, both Thiago Silva and David Luiz are still improving and gaining more experience. Silva needs to be tested in the deeper stages of the Champions League however he has improved by leaps and bounds in the past two seasons and now needs to be refined and continue his good form. As for David Luiz, he has made mistakes however it's to be expected in the first six months of a new league and he is still quite young. His presence is also necessary for another reason in that it is essential that the back three be able to build play as well, something Luiz would best be entrusted with.

A year ago, I'd have included Juan in my line-up myself, however his past six months with Roma have been nothing short of disastrous. He was responsible for countless dropped points for Roma - he single handedly gave a relegation-bound Sampdoria three points - and lost all confidence as a leader. He can bounce back, however he currently doesn't warrant a call-up given his age which tends to indicate a decline not a blip in form. Maicon is also to great a creative force in my eyes to be restricted to holding his position, whilst he's not a particularly aggressive defender meaning the transition to a more disciplined, central role may be a problem, especially as he himself ages.

The central pairing itself is weaker than in 2002 as you pointed out, however the sacrifice for a more definite style of play may be worth the risk if the coach is willing to invest in the idea. If Ganso were to be dropped then a 4-3-3 with Lucas-Ramires-Hernanes and Neymar-Pato-Hulk could be a solution to any lack of midfield industry whilst allowing the forward line freedom to roam and provide width whilst still being a significant goal threat.

Therefore in 3-5-2 the only remaining option would be to go with David Luiz, Alex and T.Silva. Maicon return to right wing-back with Alves dropped yet again. The story of Juan is a shame but I feel as though he would have still been good enough for the Copa but not WC 2014.. Juan's form I feel has also suffered in part to the calamitous relationship he shares with the even more ridiculous Burdisso.

That central midfield is a terrible combination. In any situation or formation, Lucas and Ramires as a partnership or as two links in a midfield trio just do not gel. Ramires has the potential to become the next Ze Roberto, but Lucas is not tough enough. If Sandro is available again any time soon then I would drop Lucas for him, not because one is better than the other but because I feel Sandro shows more of those G.Silva-esque qualities than Lucas.

So what about?

-----------D.Luiz-----Alex-----T.Silva------------
Maicon------Sandro-------Ramires----------Marcelo
-------------------Ganso--------------------------
------------Pato/Hulk----------Neymar/Nilmar------

The strikers are flexible and should be picked on a basis of who is hitting good form at the time they are needed.

Hulk needs to play, guys. It's hard playing with 10 midgets up front in today's game. Only Barca pull it off.

Error wrote:Mix between 3-3-1-3 and 3-5-2.

bold. i'd put maicon in for alves though. alves lost a starting place after this copa imo.

rsinatra wrote:

Error wrote:Mix between 3-3-1-3 and 3-5-2.

bold. i'd put maicon in for alves though. alves lost a starting place after this copa imo.

The first of those two formations is going to get Brazil into trouble defensively. The second formation has a serious problem, its name is Melo. The Melo must be removed immediately.

Giovanni10 wrote:

rsinatra wrote:

Error wrote:Mix between 3-3-1-3 and 3-5-2.

bold. i'd put maicon in for alves though. alves lost a starting place after this copa imo.

The first of those two formations is going to get Brazil into trouble defensively. The second formation has a serious problem, its name is Melo. The Melo must be removed immediately.

1. Troubled defensively? Like in 2002 WC which Brazil won?. Only changes are that the DM is at deeper and the CM is a real playmaker unlike in 2002 squad (Gilberto Silva & Kleberson). Ramires could replace Ganso/Hernanes but IMO it's a shame to leave good playmakers like Ganso and Hernanes on bench for limited player like Ramires.

2. Melo is not as bad player as you make him sound, just a little bit rash and unlucky. He would be a fine backup player in that squad. And it's not my fault that Brazil is lacking better real DM's. Sandro could be an alternative but he is too untested in big stages.

----Neymar------------Pato----

---------Kaka------Ganso---

------Ramires/Lucas/Sandro---

Marcelo--Silva--Luiz---Lucio---Maicon

as i posted in another thread.

4-2-2-2
Cesar
Maicon-Lucio-Silva-MARCELO
Lucas-Hernanes
Kaka-Ganso
Pato-Neymar

Neymar,pato and ganso starting in every match