Does anyone else feel massively let down by Kommander?

titosantill wrote:his team lost by 3....not 1 nil, not 2-1, not on penalties, not 3-2. they lost 3 zip. and you provided some second half highlights we should watch when they were already down 2 nil and 3 nil respectively. i'm sorry, but we cannot take that seriously, we've let a lot of things slide, and accept that people will lower standards for the sake of crowning their best players....but highlights of an attacking player when you're down 3 zip, you should be fined for even bringing up this topic

his fault as a playmaker for not prevented the 3 goals scored by opponent

or maybe his fault as a playmaker for not scoring 4 goals

titosantill logic.................

He got a shot stopped by Doni, got shackled by prime-Barca-level midfield of Elano, Mineiro, Josue, Baptista, and his team got scored 3 by better-than-BBC attack of Robinho and Vagner Love.

the GOAT

for god sake, a player can't ensure his team get a win or not

zidane scored the winning goals vs brazil in the 1998 final

but he needs his teammates to prevent brazil from scoring & they succeed

riquelme in this case was not

Pretty sure that's what people expect from Messi.

rincon wrote:He got a shot stopped by Doni, got shackled by prime-Barca-level midfield of Elano, Mineiro, Josue, Baptista, and his team got scored 3 by better-than-BBC attack of Robinho and Vagner Love.

the GOAT

in football, an on form lower team can defeat an unorganized elite team

see iceland vs holland

zidane's real madrid lose 1-3 to monaco in 2004 cl qfinal was another example

Nothing wrong with praising Riquelme, I enjoyed his football at the time. But everything is wrong in trying to sell a mediocre performance in a 3-0 loss as something special or grand.

@guest_07 that's not the point. there's so much flop-flopping that occurs when people discuss their favorite players;

"oh player x is so great, he carries such and such team on his back", then when player x's team loses, rather than it being just a bad day, or unfortunately he didn't step up. it turns to "oh it wasn't player x's fault, it was player y, its a team game". you put up highlights from a riquelme game, like it was some amazing performance, and all we said was "umm his team lost 3 nil". and as i said, that was his worst performance in that tournament, so we're not exactly sure what your point was

monaco's win over us in 2004. you brought this up. i haven't seen one footage posted on gl hailing zidane's performance or lack thereof against monaco...not one. you brought up iceland vs holland, i haven't seen one footage, clip or gif posted by anyone here on some dutch star on the team in any of those losses to iceland. you posted some clip of riquelme, and we're just scratching our heads wondering when we started ranking players based on their performances or lack thereof in 3nil losses

you can't put a player on a pedestal, and then when he doesn't perform, you now realize he has teammates. sometimes just accept it for what it is, happens to the best of them....every great player has had multiple games big or small where they *bleep* up....you take the praise and the blame. forget the "well his team lost but he hit the bar", or "he gave that pass to the one guy that hit the bar", or "he dribbled that guy here and there" narrative....and as i mentioned, all those clips you highlighted came after riquelme's team was down. two after they were 2 and 3 nil down. its easy to start being fancy when your team is down 2 or 3 in the second half, than when the game is even....stop the flip-flopping

Doc wrote:Nothing wrong with praising Riquelme, I enjoyed his football at the time. But everything is wrong in trying to sell a mediocre performance in a 3-0 loss as something special or grand.

can you describe which performance is mediocre, which one is excellent

an example

scored 4 goals but end up lose 4-12

above considered excellent or mediocre performance?

titosantill wrote:@guest_07 that's not the point. there's so much flop-flopping that occurs when people discuss their favorite players;

"oh player x is so great, he carries such and such team on his back", then when player x's team loses, rather than it being just a bad day, or unfortunately he didn't step up. it turns to "oh it wasn't player x's fault, it was player y, its a team game". you put up highlights from a riquelme game, like it was some amazing performance, and all we said was "umm his team lost 3 nil". and as i said, that was his worst performance in that tournament, so we're not exactly sure what your point was

monaco's win over us in 2004. you brought this up. i haven't seen one footage posted on gl hailing zidane's performance or lack thereof against monaco...not one. you brought up iceland vs holland, i haven't seen one footage, clip or gif posted by anyone here on some dutch star on the team in any of those losses to iceland. you posted some clip of riquelme, and we're just scratching our heads wondering when we started ranking players based on their performances or lack thereof in 3nil losses

you can't put a player on a pedestal, and then when he doesn't perform, you now realize he has teammates. sometimes just accept it for what it is, happens to the best of them....every great player has had multiple games big or small where they *bleep* up....you take the praise and the blame. forget the "well his team lost but he hit the bar", or "he gave that pass to the one guy that hit the bar", or "he dribbled that guy here and there" narrative....and as i mentioned, all those clips you highlighted came after riquelme's team was down. two after they were 2 and 3 nil down. its easy to start being fancy when your team is down in the second half, than when the game is even....stop the flip-flopping

your logic, every act is useless if his team are down 2-3 nil

never heard istanbul match

you said is easy to start being fancy when his team was down

show me the video clips for other player cause you said is easy to do meaning is easy to find the clip, maybe in youtube

if not, don't talk bullshit

Any of you lads remember Oscar's amazing performance against Germany in the 1-7?

guest_07 wrote:

Doc wrote:Nothing wrong with praising Riquelme, I enjoyed his football at the time. But everything is wrong in trying to sell a mediocre performance in a 3-0 loss as something special or grand.

can you describe which performance is mediocre, which one is excellent

Request very much denied.

@guest, his team was down 2-3 nil and STAYED down 2-3 nil (unlike istanbul) except the shot that hit the bar, none of those clips you highlighted looked like it caused the brazilian side to break a sweat. not even that tame shot. and yes, when a team is down 2-3 nil, its relatively easier for the losing team to start taking risks they might not have when the game is even; especially if both sides are fairly balanced, and not juve vs genoa for example.

i'm not about to look for player clips in games that they lost by large margines. its a huge waste of time and an extremely ridiculous activity to get involved in, even for me, who is currently on a vacation. i don't get the examples and case selections you bring up....istanbul ended 3-3, this ended 3 nil with you highlighting one half ass chance and a couple of irrelevant skills.

@m99, good one, lol, poor oscar doesn't have anyone to fight for his cause and provide us with some clips, gifs of the goal or some dribbles he executed

guest_07 wrote:an example

scored 4 goals but end up lose 4-12

above considered excellent or mediocre performance?

this has to be the most ridiculous example or scenario i've ever heard of even for gl

titosantill wrote:

guest_07 wrote:an example

scored 4 goals but end up lose 4-12

above considered excellent or mediocre performance?

this has to be the most ridiculous example or scenario i've ever heard of even for gl

is it hard to answer a simple question?

that is funny

M99 wrote:Any of you lads remember Oscar's amazing performance against Germany in the 1-7?

what he did in that match?

if he just walking, then no need any analysis

titosantill wrote:@guest, his team was down 2-3 nil and STAYED down 2-3 nil (unlike istanbul) except the shot that hit the bar, none of those clips you highlighted looked like it caused the brazilian side to break a sweat. not even that tame shot. and yes, when a team is down 2-3 nil, its relatively easier for the losing team to start taking risks they might not have when the game is even; especially if both sides are fairly balanced, and not juve vs genoa for example.

i'm not about to look for player clips in games that they lost by large margines. its a huge waste of time and an extremely ridiculous activity to get involved in, even for me, who is currently on a vacation. i don't get the examples and case selections you bring up....istanbul ended 3-3, this ended 3 nil with you highlighting one half ass chance and a couple of irrelevant skills.

@m99, good one, lol, poor oscar doesn't have anyone to fight for his cause and provide us with some clips, gifs of the goal or some dribbles he executed

if you don't have any proof, stop arguing, simple............

Doc wrote:

guest_07 wrote:

Doc wrote:Nothing wrong with praising Riquelme, I enjoyed his football at the time. But everything is wrong in trying to sell a mediocre performance in a 3-0 loss as something special or grand.

can you describe which performance is mediocre, which one is excellent

Request very much denied.

then don't argue, life is simple

Can we please stop talking about irrelevant players in this thread.

RealGunner wrote:Can we please stop talking about irrelevant players in this thread.

aye aye kommander

futbol wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:I have already expanded on his playing style in the Barca section and the Copa thread. I was even ridiculed by the Barca fans and neutrals for calling Messi one dimensiona. You can read the Messi thread on our section for proof.
However, irrespective of whether his play was one dimensional or not, I maintain he had a legendary tournament by any standard.
What did you expect against Chile? Did you expect tons of chances? It was a game of few chances and Messi created most of them. You missed the chance he set up for Aguero after dribbling through Chile.
NT tournament finals are inherently cagey affairs with very few chances.

How many chances did Maradona create against Germany in 90? Hell how many did he create against Germany in 86(there was the assist but outside of that)? He created squat.
How many chances did the great Zizou create against Italy in 2006? How many chances did Xavi and Iniesta create against Holland in 2010?
All 4 are considered GOAT playmakers (in the case of Zidane, he is nowhere close to the others as a playmaker) and yet couldnt create jack.
That is just the nature of tournament finals.

I can agree with your criticism of the 2014 final. Even there it has to be remembered that he had a very good first half(much better FINAL performance than Maradona in 90 and arguably on par with Maradona's final performance in 86).But dont agree on the 15 and 16 finals. He played very well in the 15 final but was brutally hacked down. He was outstanding in the 2016 final but was unlucky. Not his fault that Bravo pulled off one of the GOAT saves.
Was he one dimensional? probably but he played brilliantly regardless. Lets not kid ourselves. If a Zidane or an Iniesta pulled off that performance, they would be praised to the high heavens.
Just consider Zidane's performance against Brazil in 2006. Frankly that Brazilian team was the most unprofessional big team in recent memory. A bunch of overweight has beens. Roberto Carlos on his haunches allowing a free header in a WC knockout match.
Zidane had a couple of nice youtube moments but created jack in the game. Yet it gets labelled as some sort of legendary performance. I ask you the same question. What did Zidane, the legendary playmaker create against Brazil?
Or take Iniesta in the recent Copa Del Rey final. A great performance and he rightfully gets lauded for it. But again didnt create much.

Point being, standards are different for Messi than other GOATS. The same standards need to be applied to all GOATS.

Iniesta created at least 1 one-on-one which Fabregas bottled, got a Dutch player sent off and scored the winning goal. That's more than Messi did in 3 finals alltogether. Show me one super chance like this that Messi created in 6 hours of finals in which he has participated:



There is nothing. Only a couple of half chances at best. If I did a Euro 2008, WC 2010, Euro 2012 final compilation of Xavi and Iniesta there would be around 10 chances of such quality for each player. And that's without any decent forwards or pace or runners upfront for Spain after 2008.

And, as organized as Chile are tactically, on Messi's side of the pitch he was mostly up against Beausejour and Jara, defenders from Colo Colo and Universidad de Chile.

So, yeah, I'm still surprised you suddenly changed your mind so much regarding Messi's performances. Beating Panama and USA and then dribbling into dead alleys against Chile is hardly the stuff of legends in knockout tournaments.

Another big criticism directed towards him should be that he doesn't lift his teammates. Can you say any Argentina player played better due to Messi? Quite the opposite. They all look worse alongside him than they usually do without him. Great playmakers and leaders should have the opposite effect.

I said he needed a great knockout performance(atleast 2 out of 3 games) and he delivered. He was outstanding in all 3 games. I cant remember a better knockout performance in a major NT tournament in recent memory.
Again the same standards need to be applied. No GOAT has had more than 1 legendary knockout performance.
Maradona's legacy is built on 2 knockout games, against England and Belgium. He wasnt great in the final against Germany. He was poor at 82, poor at 90(poor by his standards and certainly worse than Messi 14), and poor at Copa's. People forget that Maradona was relatively poor for NT outside of 86. He delivered 2 iconic performances and is rightfully regarded highly. The 2 iconic performances rank his 86 as the best individual WC performance of all time.

Zidane, the NT GOAT never had a legendary knockout. His NT legacy is built on 2 headers against Brazil, a Euro 2000 SF performance against Portugal and an overrated performance against an overweight, unfit bunch of lazy has beens that was Brazil in 2006. That is it. 3 games and they were not even in the same tournament. The 2006 WC for Zidane gets labelled some mythical performance. You watch the games and the picture is different. Poor in the final, poor in the SF(scored a penalty but was poor).If we apply the same level of analysis that we apply to Messi's NT career , then he was poor.

R9 never had a legendary WC performance. His legacy is built on tapping in 8 goals in the 2002 WC. If you talk about Messi GOATING against Panama and USA, then please tell me about all the heavyweights R9 faced in 2002. he faced scrubs throughout. The only elite team he faced(England which was a really good team in 2002), he flopped and had to be bailed out by Rivaldo and Ronnie.
people speak of his brace in the final but forget that he missed 2 chances before scoring a double. Messi doesnt get the same luxury. He missed a one on one against Neur. But unlike R9, he didnt have a Rivaldo who kept setting him up repeatedly until he scored.

Xavi and Iniesta have never had more than one legendary knockout. Xavi had a legendary knockout in 2008, being great in all games. Iniesta in 2012.

Your point regarding individuals is not valid. We have played with Masch at CB for years. In that time, we have won 5 leagues and 2 CL's. Atletico dont have any all star names and yet they are a GOAT defensive unit. Chile may not have all star names but they are an elite side. I dont care what anyone says. I prefer to go by the eye test and the eye test tells me that they are an elite side which is further aided by the lenient refereeing( referees are a lot more lenient towards rough play and this in turn makes it very hard for star attackers). And Messi played very well against them.

Your point about raising the level of teammates in interesting and it is one I have pondered myself. I am yet to reach a conclusion. Now that Messi has retired, we will know for sure. If Argentina play in 2018 without Messi, then we can answer this question. But individuals have to take the blame too. Higuain choking in 3 consecutive finals cant be put on Messi.

Overall, apply the same standards to all GOATS. If nitpicking is done in the case of Messi, then do the same for other GOATS. I see CR7 being talked about as a top 10 player after a pathetic performance and yet Messi gets criticized for a legendary performance. Doesnt seem fair to me.

futbol wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:I have already expanded on his playing style in the Barca section and the Copa thread. I was even ridiculed by the Barca fans and neutrals for calling Messi one dimensiona. You can read the Messi thread on our section for proof.
However, irrespective of whether his play was one dimensional or not, I maintain he had a legendary tournament by any standard.
What did you expect against Chile? Did you expect tons of chances? It was a game of few chances and Messi created most of them. You missed the chance he set up for Aguero after dribbling through Chile.
NT tournament finals are inherently cagey affairs with very few chances.

How many chances did Maradona create against Germany in 90? Hell how many did he create against Germany in 86(there was the assist but outside of that)? He created squat.
How many chances did the great Zizou create against Italy in 2006? How many chances did Xavi and Iniesta create against Holland in 2010?
All 4 are considered GOAT playmakers (in the case of Zidane, he is nowhere close to the others as a playmaker) and yet couldnt create jack.
That is just the nature of tournament finals.

I can agree with your criticism of the 2014 final. Even there it has to be remembered that he had a very good first half(much better FINAL performance than Maradona in 90 and arguably on par with Maradona's final performance in 86).But dont agree on the 15 and 16 finals. He played very well in the 15 final but was brutally hacked down. He was outstanding in the 2016 final but was unlucky. Not his fault that Bravo pulled off one of the GOAT saves.
Was he one dimensional? probably but he played brilliantly regardless. Lets not kid ourselves. If a Zidane or an Iniesta pulled off that performance, they would be praised to the high heavens.
Just consider Zidane's performance against Brazil in 2006. Frankly that Brazilian team was the most unprofessional big team in recent memory. A bunch of overweight has beens. Roberto Carlos on his haunches allowing a free header in a WC knockout match.
Zidane had a couple of nice youtube moments but created jack in the game. Yet it gets labelled as some sort of legendary performance. I ask you the same question. What did Zidane, the legendary playmaker create against Brazil?
Or take Iniesta in the recent Copa Del Rey final. A great performance and he rightfully gets lauded for it. But again didnt create much.

Point being, standards are different for Messi than other GOATS. The same standards need to be applied to all GOATS.

Iniesta created at least 1 one-on-one which Fabregas bottled, got a Dutch player sent off and scored the winning goal. That's more than Messi did in 3 finals alltogether. Show me one super chance like this that Messi created in 6 hours of finals in which he has participated:



There is nothing. Only a couple of half chances at best. If I did a Euro 2008, WC 2010, Euro 2012 final compilation of Xavi and Iniesta there would be around 10 chances of such quality for each player. And that's without any decent forwards or pace or runners upfront for Spain after 2008.

And, as organized as Chile are tactically, on Messi's side of the pitch he was mostly up against Beausejour and Jara, defenders from Colo Colo and Universidad de Chile.

So, yeah, I'm still surprised you suddenly changed your mind so much regarding Messi's performances. Beating Panama and USA and then dribbling into dead alleys against Chile is hardly the stuff of legends in knockout tournaments.

Another big criticism directed towards him should be that he doesn't lift his teammates. Can you say any Argentina player played better due to Messi? Quite the opposite. They all look worse alongside him than they usually do without him. Great playmakers and leaders should have the opposite effect.

What a Nonsense. I will reply to every point you made.

Iniesta's through ball..
Do you think that through ball which iniesta does is a hard thing to do for Messi? are you really serious? Watch Messi's through ball to Di maria vs Belgium in world cup. you dont need to watch. messi does such passes every day if there is a chance.

Argentina and Spain team differences...
Iniesta plays in Spain team which is built by Barcelona players. He knows their every move. Put Messi in Spain he would have 3 world cups and 3 Euros and would win player of the tournament every time

Xavi Iniesta created more chances? They are 2 players. of course 2 players will create more chances.and especially when they are together. and i already talked about Spain team

Messi dribbles against Chile..
He dribbled because there was no other option. No option for pass no chance to shoot. What would you do in that situation? Only option was dribbling and he did it amazing against the parked bus.Simple unstoppable

They play better without messi? they are in third place in WC 2018 qualification without messi. make a research before posting your jerk comments pls.and its not even funny anymore

Lol. All the shit talking on zidane. All of a sudden, two goals in a wc final in 98 he dominated and an "overweight" Brazil team, what because Ronaldinho and Ronaldo had a few pounds?

That Italy final he was easily their best player until the red card. And I'm not saying it was right, but the rules at the time would not have gotten him sent off. Also, if someone said that about my mom or sister, we have a problem. I think all of us would've gotten mad at that.

I'm not gonna even go into your Criticism of zidane because it makes you look like a dunce. Iniesta and Xavi are easily just as good but seriously, you have no clue. Gonna wait for sports to tear you a new one

Rg please ban the people derailing this wonderful thread

The only way they can tear the Kommander down is by trying to tear his beautiful fans down

FennecFox7 wrote:
That Italy final he was easily their best player until the red card. And I'm not saying it was right, but the rules at the time would not have gotten him sent off. Also, if someone said that about my mom or sister, we have a problem. I think all of us would've gotten mad at that.

Jesus, the level of Fanboyism needed to justify your favorite player getting Red Card in a F***ing WORLD CUP Final because he couldn't handle the banter.