Build Up: Pogba to United

messixaviesta wrote:

Andrew_p wrote:It's not 90M up front ffs, its 90m payable in 2 seasons. We can afford that.

What is your gut feeling? Did Juventus want this sale to happen or not?

Yes, I feel like we ultimately did. At the end of the day, it's a world record fee for a player we signed for 800k. On top of that, he's not our most important player, in my opinion he's not even our best player.

Pogba is massively talented with an incredibly high ceiling and Manchester United are getting a star but if his departure allows Juventus to do something even better, which is how it is shaping up, then I'm all for it.

When were talking about this kind of money, there was always going to be only one outcome. We dodged it last summer- and maybe moving Pirlo, Pogba and Vidal all at once would have been too much but this summer it's happened and if it didn't, it would next season or the one after. Some things are just inevitable.

I hope he does well, I'll always be a Pogba fan

But I've certainly had much sadder goodbyes, Del Piero, Pirlo, Trezeguet
And as a club we've moved on from tougher departures of personalities massive to the club
As good as Pogba is, he just isn't in that bracket for Juventus

The toughest day is still to come, when Buffon plays his last game for Juve

Twitter seems to be down. Looks like Pogba is official

Firenze wrote:Di Marzio says it's going to be announced in the next few hrs.

110m euros all in all which includes Raiola's fee supposedly

dat discount

http://thepeoplesperson.com/2016/07/28/di-marzio-man-united-agree-e110m-pogba-fee-announcement-soon-156102/


Manchester United have had a bid in excess of €110m accepted for Paul Pogba by Juventus.

Gianluca di Marzio says Juventus will receive just over a world record €100m for Pogba once taxes have been taken into account.

Man United are also set to pay the full percentage to Mino Raiola which had become a huge point of controversy in this Pogba deal as neither club was originally willing to pay this fee. United compromised on the price of Pogba and negotiated what looks to be an excellent deal considering reports suggested it would be in the region of €145m in total.

Di Marzio goes on to say Juventus will make an announcement in the coming hours where they will publicly detail the final fees and everything to do with Pogba’s move to United.

Everything looks set for an official statement from Juventus on Thursday night confirmed United have beaten the world record transfer fee and brought Pogba back to Old Trafford.

Really interested to see how Sky report the price. Usually with City transfers they add the Agent fees and salary into the transfer price.

Could see them excluding the 10m-20m€ United will pay Raiola. And will most likely use Pre-Brexit Pound-Euro Exchange rate to make the transfer look smaller

So about £85.25 instead of the current rate at £92.7m.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

S wrote:Meanwhile Nick still has his briefcase.

Rumors he might cash it in on Sissoko for the InterComan title (:

Most meaningless mid card signing since the Prime days of Gravesentude era.

Remember when Real Madrid had signed Julien Faubert from West Ham United. Seriously though Madrid already have so many players in midfield who won't see game time. So why buy one more of that kind?

S wrote:

messixaviesta wrote:

Andrew_p wrote:It's not 90M up front ffs, its 90m payable in 2 seasons. We can afford that.

What is your gut feeling? Did Juventus want this sale to happen or not?

Maybe we dint have €90M reserved for a striker but we still had reserved a good amount of money to replace Morata. This is why it's not right when people say we swapped Pogba for Higuain just because both are being announced around the same time.

Juventus will sign at least two midfielders now.

I think we wanted him to stay for another year but United's insane wages probably was the clincher in him asking to leave.

That makes sense. Thanks. I am not so optimistic about two midfielders being signed though. Maybe one.

Luca wrote:

messixaviesta wrote:

Andrew_p wrote:It's not 90M up front ffs, its 90m payable in 2 seasons. We can afford that.

What is your gut feeling? Did Juventus want this sale to happen or not?

Yes, I feel like we ultimately did. At the end of the day, it's a world record fee for a player we signed for 800k. On top of that, he's not our most important player, in my opinion he's not even our best player.

Pogba is massively talented with an incredibly high ceiling and Manchester United are getting a star but if his departure allows Juventus to do something even better, which is how it is shaping up, then I'm all for it.

When were talking about this kind of money, there was always going to be only one outcome. We dodged it last summer- and maybe moving Pirlo, Pogba and Vidal all at once would have been too much but this summer it's happened and if it didn't, it would next season or the one after. Some things are just inevitable.

I hope he does well, I'll always be a Pogba fan

But I've certainly had much sadder goodbyes, Del Piero, Pirlo, Trezeguet
And as a club we've moved on from tougher departures of personalities massive to the club
As good as Pogba is, he just isn't in that bracket for Juventus

The toughest day is still to come, when Buffon plays his last game for Juve

Very well said. To be very honest if the Higuain purchase had not happened in the same time frame I would have been taking my hat off to Juventus right now. To get a player for nearly free and then make E100m out of him. Big time punters would want advice from you guys.

We always go back to the Zidane sale. Selling the best player in the world and then building what was arguably an even better team.

How great will Pogba eventually become? No one knows at this point but you and I both know that the number of those who don't fulfill their initial promise is much more than those who do.

Buffon might just be the best signing ever. To get a player of that quality, be able to hold him for so many years and get so much value out of him for the club besides the pride of being the club that is home to one of your country's greatest ever legends.

messixaviesta wrote:

S wrote:

messixaviesta wrote:

What is your gut feeling? Did Juventus want this sale to happen or not?

Maybe we dint have €90M reserved for a striker but we still had reserved a good amount of money to replace Morata. This is why it's not right when people say we swapped Pogba for Higuain just because both are being announced around the same time.

Juventus will sign at least two midfielders now.

I think we wanted him to stay for another year but United's insane wages probably was the clincher in him asking to leave.

That makes sense. Thanks. I am not so optimistic about two midfielders being signed though. Maybe one.

Marchisio is out for a long time. He won't be back until November/December at least. Khedira has his own fitness issues as well. There are also Hernanes, Pereyra and possibly Lemina on their way out.

Juventus needs at least two reliable midfielders.

messixaviesta wrote:

Luca wrote:

messixaviesta wrote:

What is your gut feeling? Did Juventus want this sale to happen or not?

Yes, I feel like we ultimately did. At the end of the day, it's a world record fee for a player we signed for 800k. On top of that, he's not our most important player, in my opinion he's not even our best player.

Pogba is massively talented with an incredibly high ceiling and Manchester United are getting a star but if his departure allows Juventus to do something even better, which is how it is shaping up, then I'm all for it.

When were talking about this kind of money, there was always going to be only one outcome. We dodged it last summer- and maybe moving Pirlo, Pogba and Vidal all at once would have been too much but this summer it's happened and if it didn't, it would next season or the one after. Some things are just inevitable.

I hope he does well, I'll always be a Pogba fan

But I've certainly had much sadder goodbyes, Del Piero, Pirlo, Trezeguet
And as a club we've moved on from tougher departures of personalities massive to the club
As good as Pogba is, he just isn't in that bracket for Juventus

The toughest day is still to come, when Buffon plays his last game for Juve

Very well said. To be very honest if the Higuain purchase had not happened in the same time frame I would have been taking my hat off to Juventus right now. To get a player for nearly free and then make E100m out of him. Big time punters would want advice from you guys.

We always go back to the Zidane sale. Selling the best player in the world and then building what was arguably an even better team.

How great will Pogba eventually become? No one knows at this point but you and I both know that the number of those who don't fulfill their initial promise is much more than those who do.

Buffon might just be the best signing ever. To get a player of that quality, be able to hold him for so many years and get so much value out of him for the club besides the pride of being the club that is home to one of your country's greatest ever legends.

I'm actually alright with the Higuain purchase. It's been a position that has haunted us for years and we finally went out and dropped the money that we probably could have done 2-3 years ago and spent half as much- but hindsight is always 20-20.

Juventus targeting and failing to secure strikers over a matter of relatively smaller amounts than 90M has been a running joke since Conte. We've come from Vucinic and Matri as our starters to Higuain and Dybala up top and it's a great feeling.

Our other signings this summer have been nothing short of amazing.
Pjaca is touted as the real deal and its not everyday that Juventus drops over 20M on a younger player, at 21 coming from Croatia, I'm already a believer.
Benatia for 17M, he was in the Serie A team of the year just a couple of seasons ago.
Pjanic for 32M one of the very best and most creative midfielders in Serie A for the past few seasons, he brings a dimension we have not had since Pirlo.
Dani Alves for free, another champion in the locker room, a leader and a true competitor.

Were really doing signings that only a handful of teams in Europe can do and no team in Italy can.

S wrote:

messixaviesta wrote:

S wrote:


Maybe we dint have €90M reserved for a striker but we still had reserved a good amount of money to replace Morata. This is why it's not right when people say we swapped Pogba for Higuain just because both are being announced around the same time.

Juventus will sign at least two midfielders now.

I think we wanted him to stay for another year but United's insane wages probably was the clincher in him asking to leave.

That makes sense. Thanks. I am not so optimistic about two midfielders being signed though. Maybe one.

Marchisio is out for a long time. He won't be back until November/December at least. Khedira has his own fitness issues as well. There are also Hernanes, Pereyra and possibly Lemina on their way out.

Juventus needs at least two reliable midfielders.

That does make the next few days very interesting.

Luca, I agree largely with your comments on the rest of the signings. I am still a little bit shocked that we let Dani Alves go.

As for Higuain the problems are the huge fee, his age and his record of flopping in big matches one too many times. Will he be better than Tevez for you all? Time will tell but I do not think so. Sometimes I wonder if you all could have done more to hold on to Tevez. As for whether there was a better striker available for the same price (or less) that you all could have gone for, I'll need to think on that.

I thought for some time and you are right that there isn't too much out there. The best that I can think of is Griezmann but he is not a number 9 as such. Then there are a handful of names who may not be better players but one or more of them may have been better bargains. Could you have gotten Icardi or Bacca? Would you have wanted any of them? Then there are a few players from other leagues but being proven in Serie A has it's own advantages.

Tevez had his heart set on Boca, this for once was not money motivated because even now he could still get in to a decent European team.


Higuain will be better imo, because he's more of a goal threat than Tevez and Tevez had 1 good season and 1 bad season in the CL. So if Higuain can put in a couple of consistent seasons in the CL then that's all we need.

Obviously Tevez offered different things like his ridiculous workrate but we don't particularly need that right now. All this Juve side needs is a goal machine. Not another SS/#10 player. Taking nothing away from Tevez he done his job so well here. But now we have Dybala.

Tevez was a fantastic bargain signing for us and i'm glad we got him on the cheap instead of Higuain back in the day, really helped take us to another level. But Higuain at 28 and on a fat contract here should comfortably do better for us than Tevez did given that he wasn't here long.

It's not just Higuain.  Without Pogba, Juve have spent 157.5 mil so far and received 35.7 mil in fees from sales.  That's a 121.8 mil deficit.  This deficit is exponentially higher than those made by Juve in the past couple of years.  So you can't say they don't need it.  

Now, even if Pogba is sold for 110 mil, that's still a 11.8 mil deficit and Juve still need to buy another CM... Matuidi will cost 30-35 mil.  Same with Whitsel.  So you're still looking at a 42 mil deficit even with the sale of Pogba.

Juve are mitigating this deficit by making the Higuain transfer payable in two installments.  That said, we don't know if Man U's fee is paid all at once either.  Installment payments are fairly common.   Milan take it to an extreme  But 2-3 years is not out of the realm of possibility.

http://www.transfermarkt.com/juventus-fc/transfers/verein/506/plus/0?saison_id=2016&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=

Well we KNOW we're paying Higuains clause in 2 installments due to a technicality. And nobody has said anything about Pogbas fee being paid off in anything other than 1 chunk

So instead of playing detective and going by what we KNOW, selling Pogba for the rumoured fee leaves us around 30M in the green.


Now if we want to make stuff up, we'll say that United are paying Pogba off in 50 yearly installments and we're paying Higuains in 1. Leaving us really in trouble and we're going to sell half of our team.

If that makes you feel better.

messixaviesta wrote:Luca, I agree largely with your comments on the rest of the signings. I am still a little bit shocked that we let Dani Alves go.

As for Higuain the problems are the huge fee, his age and his record of flopping in big matches one too many times. Will he be better than Tevez for you all? Time will tell but I do not think so. Sometimes I wonder if you all could have done more to hold on to Tevez. As for whether there was a better striker available for the same price (or less) that you all could have gone for, I'll need to think on that.

He doesn't have to be better than Tevez, he just has to be better than Morata and Mandzukic.

But I do agree with you, the price brings massive expectations and pressure and we all know how Higuain does under pressure but I believe in the team more than the individuals. I was a pretty vocal Higuain hater but last season he was absolutely unplayable for Napoli.

sportsczy wrote:It's not just Higuain.  Without Pogba, Juve have spent 157.5 mil so far and received 35.7 mil in fees from sales.  That's a 121.8 mil deficit.  This deficit is exponentially higher than those made by Juve in the past couple of years.  So you can't say they don't need it.  

Now, even if Pogba is sold for 110 mil, that's still a 11.8 mil deficit and Juve still need to buy another CM... Matuidi will cost 30-35 mil.  Same with Whitsel.  So you're still looking at a 42 mil deficit even with the sale of Pogba.

Juve are mitigating this deficit by making the Higuain transfer payable in two installments.  That said, we don't know if Man U's fee is paid all at once either.  Installment payments are fairly common.   Milan take it to an extreme  But 2-3 years is not out of the realm of possibility.

http://www.transfermarkt.com/juventus-fc/transfers/verein/506/plus/0?saison_id=2016&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=

Zaza will be sold for, at the very least 25M
Pereyra or Lemina will be sold if not both and also raise funds
Higuain's transfer will be paid in two summers, so while we do not know of Pogba's (which I agree it is common practice), we do know for a fact about Higuain so lets call it 45M because that's what it is.

I don't see these fees outside of the realm of possibility for Juventus.
You're probably also counting Benatia as 20M or 17M, but really it's 3M with an obligation for next summer.

would just like to say I was right that both deals would be concluded within the same couple of days

no Juve fan is actually going to argue that signing Higuain without selling Pogba would have happened I hope

Sports they're selling Zaza  + Pereyra for 60m apparently so they can easily afford another WC midfielder, may even be able to push for Fellaini with those sort of funds

But your argument is that Juve doesn't need to sell Pogba. Well, even taking into account the 2 year installment payment of Higuain, Juve would have been 80 mil in the red as opposed to 120+ mil. I assume Higuain is making a big wage too.

I just don't see how Juve would ever have paid that much for Higuain if they weren't quasi certain that Pogba was being sold.

Tomwin Lannister wrote:Tevez had his heart set on Boca, this for once was not money motivated because even now he could still get in to a decent European team.


Higuain will be better imo, because he's more of a goal threat than Tevez and Tevez had 1 good season and 1 bad season in the CL. So if Higuain can put in a couple of consistent seasons in the CL then that's all we need.

Obviously Tevez offered different things like his ridiculous workrate but we don't particularly need that right now. All this Juve side needs is a goal machine. Not another SS/#10 player. Taking nothing away from Tevez he done his job so well here. But now we have Dybala.

Tevez was a fantastic bargain signing for us and i'm glad we got him on the cheap instead of Higuain back in the day, really helped take us to another level. But Higuain at 28 and on a fat contract here should comfortably do better for us than Tevez did given that he wasn't here long.

I think Tevez is a bit screwed up in the head. His head can be turned. Conte tried recently for Chelsea and although he didn't succeed he did sow the seeds. Juve could have made him an offer. That said sometimes maybe the need of the team is what really matters. If you need a number 9 you need a number 9 and nothing else will do even if you have to massively overpay. Like when Bayern Munich paid E40m for Javi Martinez and it paid off really well.

I agree Luca... I'm just saying it's not Juve's style at all to make big commitment without already knowing for almost certain that they have it covered.  I would doubt that they pull the trigger on the Higuain deal before selling Zaza and Lemina IF Pogba was staying.  The fact that they pulled the Higuain trigger quickly and haven't been aggressive in selling Zaza and Lemina indicated to me that they knew Pogba was gone.

And honestly... other than that summer when Juve spent stupid money on the likes of Felipe Melo... i don't remember Juve just overpaying outrageously for someone like they did with Higuain. There had to be some event that allowed them to take this kind of risk.

Luca wrote:

messixaviesta wrote:Luca, I agree largely with your comments on the rest of the signings. I am still a little bit shocked that we let Dani Alves go.

As for Higuain the problems are the huge fee, his age and his record of flopping in big matches one too many times. Will he be better than Tevez for you all? Time will tell but I do not think so. Sometimes I wonder if you all could have done more to hold on to Tevez. As for whether there was a better striker available for the same price (or less) that you all could have gone for, I'll need to think on that.

He doesn't have to be better than Tevez, he just has to be better than Morata and Mandzukic.

But I do agree with you, the price brings massive expectations and pressure and we all know how Higuain does under pressure but I believe in the team more than the individuals. I was a pretty vocal Higuain hater but last season he was absolutely unplayable for Napoli.

That's exactly my problem with Higuain. He had his career best season, a record breaking season in Serie A. Even then he missed the chance that could and should have won Argentina an international trophy after ages. So when he is in that kind of form and confidence level is that high if he can fail when it really matters then how can we even expect him to ever succeed in big moments?

sportsczy wrote:I agree Luca... I'm just saying it's not Juve's style at all to make big commitment without already knowing for almost certain that they have it covered. I would doubt that they pull the trigger on the Higuain deal before selling Zaza and Lemina IF Pogba was staying. The fact that they pulled the Higuain trigger quickly and haven't been aggressive in selling Zaza and Lemina indicated to me that they knew Pogba was gone.

I agree with that too regarding Pogba's departure. While I do believe it was possible to keep Pogba and sign Higuain, it makes more sense to splash 90M on one player after selling another for 110M, regardless of the order.

Once all the Italian media reported that Pogba has told Juventus he wanted to leave, I knew it would happen. Funny because within a week of this happening, it was announced very suddenly that Juventus will pay Higuain's clause, just after Marotta and De Laurentiis both confirming that we would not.

The real problem is the lack of real quality central midfielders available now.

I'll add that Juve should not be selling any midfielders... even Pereyra and Lemina...  because Khedira is an injury waiting to happen and Marchisio is injured.  With Pogba gone, that leaves Pjanic and who exactly.  Need some numbers there.

Selling Zaza makes 100% sense however.

Firenze wrote:so basically Juve spent 16 million less on Higuain than we did Pogba



unreal banter

No actually you spent over $100 million on Pogba than we did...  

Robben was a big choker in finals too...

One on one miss against Casillas in the world cup.

2012 CL final where one player hasn't choked as much as Robben did in the same match until he scored the match winner in 2013.

When Robben can overcome his choking demons , why can't Higuain too ? It's not like this team is going to be over-reliant on him. It just takes one good non choking performance in a final to erase memories of the past.

sportsczy wrote:I'll add that Juve should not be selling any midfielders... even Pereyra and Lemina...  because Khedira is an injury waiting to happen and Marchisio is injured.  With Pogba gone, that leaves Pjanic and who exactly.  Need some numbers there.

Selling Zaza makes 100% sense however.

I disagree

Right now these are our central midfielders:
Pjanic, Marchisio*, Khedira*, Lemina, Sturaro, Pereyra, Hernanes, Aasamoah

That's 8 central mids for 3 starting positions. Marchisio is out long term which leaves 7 for 3 spots and Khedira is out until October (relatively short term) which leaves 6 for 3 spots. Assuming we sign one central mid, one would be fine to leave.

Where did you get the Khedira injury stuff from ? Haven't read it anywhere. Would have known it on Twitter if he really suffered a serious injury. It most likely must be a hoax.