German NT may go out for a 4-2-4 system

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Post by rwo power Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:07 pm

Individual skill more important than the system, a strikerless formation - unveiling the new football model that will make Germany dominate
Goal.com takes a look at the latest philosophical shifts in the DFB
Author: Clark Whitney

Because of the constant flux of coaches and players in modern football, it is uncommon to see a team develop under relatively constant conditions. Pep Guardiola has managed to achieve consistent success while adjusting his Barcelona team over the years, but otherwise, there are very few that have lasted for an extended period.

On the international stage, though, there is one example of note: Joachim Löw has coached Germany since 2006, and his five-year reign has seen a general philosophy stay true, while specifics have been adjusted again and again as he has searched for the right combination.

In the beginning, Löw sought to maintain the aggressive, attack-minded values that he had helped instill while working as assistant to his predecessor, Jurgen Klinsmann. He valued the promotion of young Bundesliga stars, and had no qualms turning the likes of Lukas Podolski and Bastian Schweinsteiger into cornerstones of his team.

But during his time at the helm of the DFB team, Löw has adjusted certain aspects of his philosophy. He first preferred 4-4-2, but has since resorted to 4-2-3-1, and even 4-1-4-1 systems. In his earlier years, he might have hesitated to promote a 21-year-old (Mario Gomez) to the senior team. But his trust in youth has grown and grown: a year ago, he called up the then-18-year-old Mario Gotze and 20-year-olds Lewis Holtby and Andre Schurrle, handing them their first caps in a friendly against Sweden.

There is a grand scheme at the DFB, and it is one that for all its technicality is often missed or ignored. But every so often, Löw and his staff offer a glimpse at Germany’s philosophical direction. Below, Goal.com takes a look at the latest developments from the DFB.

Believe it: 4-2-4 could be the future

Five years ago, Franz Beckenbauer wrote that for young players, it is best to prepare in a 4-2-4 set-up. Therein, there is no "focal point" of the attack, and all-across the front line learn a more complete skill set.

The topic re-surfaced in 2009, when DFB chief scout Urs Siegenthaler asked Spox: "Why not play with four strikers?"

"Barcelona play with three strikers, and suddenly the whole world is calling for three strikers. But the pure copy of success inhibits one’s own development. We need to find our own solutions, even if they are sometimes provocative."

Siegenthaler’s point at the time was more a comment on Germany’s need to lead their own way than a definite recommendation. But recently, 4-2-4 has re-surfaced as a possibility.

In August and September, Germany U20 coach Frank Wormuth experimented with a 4-2-4 formation that included striker-type players, but had no real "focal point" among Lennart Thy, Kevin Volland, Florian Trinks and Patrick Herrmann. When asked about his tactics, the trainer replied: "Barcelona have shown that you can play perfectly well without a classic centre forward."

Looking at the up-and-coming forwards in German football, there are few top talents who are purely classic 'No. 9'-types. Pierre-Michel Lasogga, of Hertha Berlin and the U21 national team, is one exception. But others, even those with the physique of a classic target-man, have been trained to play in deep areas and out wide. One example is the rather burly Alexander Esswein, who plays wide for both Nurnberg and U21 national teams, but is naturally much more a '9' than a '7.'

Volland, 19, has been prolific for 1860 Munich this season, but his role is more that of a supporting striker, and he often assists. The same goes for Samed Yesil, 17, who has been setting the U19 West Bundesliga alight for Leverkusen ever since returning from the U17 World Cup with six goals and seven assists. Germany really are moving away from the concept of a "poaching”" centre forward. Gomez - who is becoming increasingly a complete player - could be the last such striker we see in the German national team for some time.

A switch to 4-2-4 is by no means a change to expect anytime soon, however. Löw said on Wednesday that playmaker Mesut Özil is no option in the centre of attack should Klose and Gomez both be unavailable. But regardess of the way they are ultimately deployed tactically, Germany’s forwards are making a distinct move away from the classic six-yard box type, and towards a more balanced type, capable of playing outside the box.

Mental development matters more than age

As an isolated quality, age has little value. It is not the years someone has, but the experience, composure, and maturity - in addition to skills - that a player possesses which will give him an edge. As recently as early 2010, Löw was still reluctant to make large changes to his team. He waited until March of 2010 to cap Thomas Muller, and to move Bastian Schweinsteiger from the wing to central midfield. Rene Adler was only replaced by the clearly superior Manuel Neuer when the Leverkusen man suffered an injury before the World Cup.

Löw now has no qualms shaking things up, and the turning point perhaps was the recent World Cup. Muller’s performances proved that even a 20-year-old could have the mental fortitude to play at the highest level and shine. Had it not been for the Bayern man’s success, Löw might have replaced the suspended winger with Piotr Trochowski for the semi-final match against Spain. Instead, he used the young Toni Kroos, who himself had only earned his first international cap three months prior.

Löw backed up his decisions with philosophical comments in October, at a conference at the Freiburg youth academy.

“Cognitive development is extremely important. The development of the mind, I think, is now more important than ever. Intelligent players are receptive and capable of implementation,” he said, according to the official Freiburg website.

"A Mesut Ozil, a Mario Gotze, a Mats Hummels, a Holger Badstuber, and so on - they are very mature even in their younger years. A couple years ago I had a different picture."

Indeed, since the World Cup, Löw has dropped the likes of Jorg Butt, Arne Friedrich, Serdar Tasci, Piotr Trochowski, and Stefan Kiessling in favour of younger replacements, whom he believes to be sufficiently mature.

Individual proficiency is more important than the system

Also at the Freiburg conference, Löw emphasised the increasing importance of individual class in the modern game.

"We clearly have better training in technical aspects. But the space on the pitch has become smaller, the time to act scarce. Individual skill is therefore the most important factor in training, more important than the system."

Indeed, with the increasing athleticism of players, there has been a drop in acceptable margin of error. If a player receives the ball, for example, it is now more important than ever that he have a soft first touch, because these days he is more likely to have a marker nearby.

"Only out of order can arise creativity. Take jazz or blues music. Only when everyone knows what he has to play can the creativity of each performer come forward"
- Urs Siegenthaler, to Spox, 2009

Löw was quick to clarify that such 'individual class' extends far beyond ball tricks and step-overs. Instead, he emphasised complete mastery of the basics in every player’s repertoire.

"We need to make the simple into the very special: the passing game, the timing, the pressing and trapping, the game without the ball, how we deal with one-on-one situations, how we quickly find solutions in small spaces."

It is in these so-called 'simple' areas that Löw’s Germany have excelled in recent years: their movement on and off the ball, and decisions in one-touch passing in particular. Success can only come when each player's proficiency works in concert with the next, but the most fundamental and eluse pre-requisite is that each brings an adequate skill-set to the training camp before learning the system.

Source: http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2011/11/11/2751082/individual-skill-more-important-than-the-system-a
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Post by kiranr Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:27 pm

Everything in that makes sense and that is how football should be taught to young players.

But what is the relevance of the 4-2-4 with everything that has been said there? The only relevant point that i noticed was the decreasing reliance on a classic poacher/striker.

How would Germany incorporate a 4-2-4? Wouldn't it be too light in middle and hence have the potential to leave lot of gaps in the field which can be exploited?
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Post by DeviAngel Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:15 pm

Conte style I like it Smile
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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:16 pm

kiranr wrote:How would Germany incorporate a 4-2-4? Wouldn't it be too light in middle and hence have the potential to leave lot of gaps in the field which can be exploited?

-------------- Neuer
Höwedes Boateng Hummels Lahm
---- Khedira -- Schweinsteiger
Müller -- Özil --- Götze/Kroos -- Podolski


With Schürrle and Reus there's two more excellent forwards who thrive on the wing but are very dangerous in front of goal. Could work out.

Though I don't see why we'd play that system as long as Klose and Gomez are still alive and kicking, but it's tasty food for thought.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:20 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
kiranr wrote:How would Germany incorporate a 4-2-4? Wouldn't it be too light in middle and hence have the potential to leave lot of gaps in the field which can be exploited?

-------------- Neuer
Höwedes Boateng Hummels Lahm
---- Khedira -- Schweinsteiger
Müller -- Özil --- Götze/Kroos -- Podolski


With Schürrle and Reus there's two more excellent forwards who thrive on the wing but are very dangerous in front of goal. Could work out.

Though I don't see why we'd play that system as long as Klose and Gomez are still alive and kicking, but it's tasty food for thought.

In practice thats more of a 4-2-3-1 or 4-2-2-1-1 that can seamlessly move to 4-2-4 when you attack and vice versa......

Its a very versatile and smooth system which should work imo.
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Post by The Messiah Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:21 pm

This is very similar to Bayern Formation when the play with Robben, Muller and Ribery right Behind Gomez.

Robben-Muller -Gomez-Ribery.

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Post by Sushi Master Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:21 pm

Yeah, Mole put it best. You also have to take into account that Germany has players with great workrate. Mueller, Podolski, Schurrle, Oezil: all these guys run their asses off which mean less pressure for the midfield, which we all know by now is very solid.

It's not even defensively minded, but tactical awareness is the real defense, IMO.
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Post by Guest Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:08 pm

Very quality post, great read, +1 Thumbs up

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Post by Art Morte Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:21 pm

You know, sometimes I feel we, the football fans (and the press), pay too much attention to formations.

4-2-4?
Okay, fair enough.
But effectively it will be a 4-4-2 or a 4-4-1-1 or a 4-5-1.
Why?
Because when I think about 4-2-4 I come to think of a formation where only the 4-2 part of it does defending and build-up play in midfield. That's what it sounds like to me. But in reality, it will be about 4 defenders and 4 midfield players building the play up, even if those wide midfield players do play very attacking roles when their team is enjoying possession.
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Post by jibers Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:22 pm

DeviAngel wrote:Conte style I like it Smile

Yea, watching Juve is interesting, they don't play a strict 4-2-4, when out of possession your wide players drop deep and it becomes a 442.
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Post by Art Morte Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:25 pm

jibers wrote:
DeviAngel wrote:Conte style I like it Smile

Yea, watching Juve is interesting, they don't play a strict 4-2-4, when out of possession your wide players drop deep and it becomes a 442.

I'm partly repeating what I said above, but: of course.

I mean, if you're not in control of the game / ball, you're not going to defend with only 6 men, are you?

And that's my point about this 4-2-4, to me it's not really a 4-2-4. It's 4-4-2 with attacking wingers.
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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:04 pm

The idea is mainly to defend with 10 men and attack with 8, imho. So that's where I agree with Art Morte: the actual formation isn't too important, ALL players drop deep when defending for Germany, and only one or two CBs stay back when Germany attacks, that's just how the system works, and that's why a change in formation doesn't really change too much how the team behaves as a whole.
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Post by rwo power Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:32 am

Well, yesterday Löw tried out a 3-4-2-1 for once. Kudos for him to really experiment in friendlies and not catering to the public trying to get an easy win!

I think it is a good idea to trying out unusual shapes indeed as that way Germany could make unexpected tactical choices if need be. But of course such things have to be tried out first, and friendlies are really the best thing for that.


Last edited by rwo power on Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I can't count. There should only be 11 players on the pitch, not 12 :P Formation corrected.)
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Post by Adit Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:42 am

Perfect example of 4-2-4 was madrid in the last decade

Our 4-2-4 can be summed up like this .One end Casillas save other end ronaldo goal lol.
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Post by The Franchise Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:05 am

Intresting set up last night, but the wingbacks werent good enough at all for the system.
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Post by DeviAngel Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:37 pm

Art Morte wrote:
jibers wrote:
DeviAngel wrote:Conte style I like it Smile

Yea, watching Juve is interesting, they don't play a strict 4-2-4, when out of possession your wide players drop deep and it becomes a 442.

I'm partly repeating what I said above, but: of course.

I mean, if you're not in control of the game / ball, you're not going to defend with only 6 men, are you?

And that's my point about this 4-2-4, to me it's not really a 4-2-4. It's 4-4-2 with attacking wingers.

well it really depends as you said if you have the control and the ball if you do You play 4-2-4 with the wingers as inside forwards thats what Cotne is doing pressure football
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Post by Camurrìa.Sto.Stronzo Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:42 pm

Ukraine destroyed them in midfield.
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Post by justdoit_ Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:10 pm

Camurrìa.Sto.Stronzo wrote:Ukraine destroyed them in midfield.
Correct, you are.



Tymoschuk :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: I love Tymo :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:

But really, Germany will be fine.
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Post by rwo power Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:17 pm

justdoit_ wrote:Tymoschuk :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: I love Tymo :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:
You got that wrong. It should be

Chaka Tymo Chaka

(I really liked how he played yesterday!)
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Post by The Messiah Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:34 pm

Badstuber was terrible yesterday, he was always out of position and playing old strikers onsight
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Post by rwo power Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:51 pm

I think Badstuber was out of position, just because he, Aogo and Hummels weren't 100% sure where exactly Löw wanted them to play in that 3 CB setup.
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Post by The Messiah Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:09 pm

Watch the first Goal he was supposed to be the anchor man in defence but he was so slow in recovery back from the first Goal, 2nd goal he was nowhere near the defence.

This is exactly thesame thing Basler said about him, sometimes you dont where he plays on the pitch, if Germany wants to win the Euro he must not be a started, they should start with Howedes, Boateng and Hummels.

As for Bayern I am sure in the next few years everyone will grew tired of him and he will be sold to Heartha Berlin, sometime I feel he purposely run so slow whenever he knows his messed up and put so much pressure on other defender and then he starts making some stupid reactions like flipping his hands as if to it's the other defenders fault.

I have been monitoring Badstuber ever since he first started playing for Bayern and his a bad defender plain and simple
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Post by juventus101 Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:47 pm

Honestly, ithinkitall depends on Gomezs international form. If he performs well for the national team, then Germany should play a 4141, with Schweini holding the mid behind Poldi, Gotze, Ozil, and Muller, who will all support Gomez. If Gomes is not on the right form, then they should play almost a 4222, with Poldi and Muller pushing in a bit more, supported by Gotze and Ozil, and Kroos or Khedira helping Schweini out in center midfield.
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Post by 7amood11 Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:11 pm

Couldn't resist:

German NT may go out for a  4-2-4 system Contehipster



(Credit to Maurotaurox)
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Post by rwo power Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:40 pm

Actually, I think it is cool that Jogi experiments a bit with different formations atm. If the players get the hang of it, it gives Löw more flexibility to make his team more unpredictable and more difficult to deal with.
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