Re: The definitive "Wenger in/out" thread

by Twoism Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:34 am

GoonerJay29 wrote:
Wilson37 wrote:And about signing established experienced players.. Wasnt Metskr one of that category.. Fans considered him as the best signing in recent years.. And now ? Anyone here who thought he would perform like this...
And those mediocre signings Arteta and Santos ? Its them who had some success..
So remember even established players can fail.. Admit that Wenger knows better.. And this is not fantasy football to buy the best players.. And please understand the situation of our club.. Be practical.. We cant sign Hazard for 20 million when Chelsea is ready to sign him for 40 million offering double amount of wages.. And if a big signing fails it will not be like Denilson or Chamakh failing.. Could we have withstanded some1 like Andy Caroll.. And would an Arsenal fan accept performances of Suarez for £25 million..?
So i feel that Wengers cautious approach in transfers has more advantages than disadvantages... And do u think if we cash in our entire budget on some world class player, can we win the league ? And what if he gets injured or the move doesnt pay off..

I'm not saying we should splash out wildly on some supposed world class talent. I don't know why people jump to this conclusion when people say we should spend a bit more.

What I meant by going the extra mile is spending just that little bit extra, because we've let talents go in the past because we did not want to spend just that little bit more. Juan Mata in the summer, for example, and Cristiano Ronaldo and Frank Ribery in the past.

Then think about how we splashed out nearly £15mil on Oxlade-Chamberlain. Obviously he's proving to be a really good talent but it was a risky transfer at that price.

You can't always be cautious in the market. Sometimes you need to take risks to really enhance your squad and get to a higher level, especially after you lose talents of that calibre like Fabregas who, unfortunately, you can't always replace with a young talent or some £10mil player.

Ox is risky business so whoever said our transfer is low risk, no reward previously couldn't be more wrong, I would say it's paid off so far. Mata is much safer bet. Wenger can spend and he did but unfortunately his targets were never world class ones bar this summer signings (more panic than anything, also arguably world class), he just does not see the value of players as we fans do.

Last summer, we broke the bank for Ox and nearly got Jones with 16 millions offer, that 16 plus a bit more could/should go for Mata. Wenger broke bank lots of time before for youngster he seen worth it, like Edu, Reyes, Walcott. He did it one for WC player Arshavin and the pay off so far probably put him off for good.

by Wilson37 Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:17 am

All agree that Wenger sees things differently than what the media sees..
U think 12million (7million ready cash plus remaining later)(am i correct ?) on Alex was gamble ? Do u think Wenger would gamble with 12million..??
From another viewpoint.. He must have been damn sure about Alex.. I am sure he knew what he was doing.. and history tells he gets it correct most of the times.. And you are starting to see it..
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and about Mata.. We were never close to signing him.. There was no active interest from his part.. And when the options are available for him he chooses the club which gives him the maximum wages...
But Alex wanted to play for us.. Otherwise.. I am sure he would have drew a lot of offers and we would end up not signing him..
Same was the case with Gervinho.. He made it clear that he wanted to play for us..
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so the bottomline.. Finally it all comes to money.. We cant compete with Chelsea or City to offer improved transfer fees or wages.. If we do it and start making exceptions it is going to unsettle our management system..
So atm.. The condition is that we cant sign an experienced world class player or any one near to that without an active interest from their side, as they will naturally attract competition from other clubs.. And those guys who dont value the difference between Arsenal and Chelsea.. will ofcourse go by wages...
And i have no idea, whom to blame for this... May be we need more ambitious owners who can spray money from their own pockets...

by Emaharg Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:00 am

I don't see anything risky about our transfers.
Mertesacker, Santos and Arteta all been around for ages playing in top division and all apart from Arteta played for their county.
Chamberlain was playing for the Under x England squads and preforming well, played well for Southampton and really shined against United in the FA Cup.

The thing is if you don't spend top dollar you don't get the real top quality players. Sure some of our 8-15mil transfers have improved greatly while at the club and reached that top quality, but we have a lot of players who would struggle to get into most of the top sides in Europe.

by 6unner Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:31 am

Emaharg wrote:I don't see anything risky about our transfers.
Mertesacker, Santos and Arteta all been around for ages playing in top division and all apart from Arteta played for their county.
Chamberlain was playing for the Under x England squads and preforming well, played well for Southampton and really shined against United in the FA Cup.

The thing is if you don't spend top dollar you don't get the real top quality players. Sure some of our 8-15mil transfers have improved greatly while at the club and reached that top quality, but we have a lot of players who would struggle to get into most of the top sides in Europe.

The only thing that is risky is trying to figure out if they can replace the people that have left. Or in the case of Mert come in and add something different. For Artetta, Santos and Gervihno yes they were very risky and have not produced what we lost. For Mert only time will tell. Our defense has been by far the best part of our game this year.

by MJ Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:12 am

Gervinho>Nasri in his first season and definitely more to follow.

No one will come in and replicate Fabregas but Arteta has been phenomenal, without him, we'd have lost more games than you know.

Santos played pretty well pre-injury. We'll see whatsup in March.

by 6unner Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:46 pm

MJGunner wrote:Gervinho>Nasri in his first season and definitely more to follow.
Actually they have pretty even 1st year stats so far. Nasari’s first year 6 goals 5 assist. Gervihno 4 goals 6 assists. Then you need to look at last year and Nasari’s 16 goals and 4 assists. This to me is a risk and a big loss.

No one will come in and replicate Fabregas but Arteta has been phenomenal, without him, we'd have lost more games than you know.
Completely agree that we probably will never have anyone that will be able to replace what Cesc did for Arsenal.
Also with our current team we might not have won as many games without Artetta as we have. Just like I would say that if instead of Artetta we had signed a creative attacking mid. We would have been able to win more games than we have.

Santos played pretty well pre-injury. We'll see whatsup in March.
Santos is a defensive liability and has probably been behind as many goals against as goals for. Has he shown brilliance a few times, yea? Then he gets beat many more.

[b]

by Iceman Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:17 pm

As of last week, Santos had the most tackles won in the Arsenal squad despite being out with his injuries.

by Raptorgunner Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:22 pm

Iceman wrote:As of last week, Santos had the most tackles won in the Arsenal squad despite being out with his injuries.

I really miss Santos, he offered us something we have not had another scoring threat. Very Happy

by Jay29 Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:31 pm

Actually they have pretty even 1st year stats so far. Nasari’s first year 6 goals 5 assist. Gervihno 4 goals 6 assists. Then you need to look at last year and Nasari’s 16 goals and 4 assists. This to me is a risk and a big loss.

Nasri's stats last season are hugely misleading. He scored 15 goals before January, but only 1 afterwards. And if you look at his City stats now, most of his goals and assists have come in his first two or three months, but since he then he's struggled to produce. That suggests the player has great ability but can't consistently produce that ability over an entire season.

If Gervinho proves himself to be able to produce goals and assists over the course of the whole season then he becomes the better signing even if ends up with lower numbers.

As of last week, Santos had the most tackles won in the Arsenal squad despite being out with his injuries.

Not that I think Santos is a bad defender by any means, but this stat is also misleading. Making more tackles in shorter space of time suggests not that he's a good defender, but that he had to make more tackles due to bad positioning. It does suggest he can recover well enough to make the tackles, but I think interceptions would be a much stat to judge how good a defender is.

by Iceman Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:43 pm

There's actually something off about that statistic, but I'm not sure about it. Don't go spreading it about just yet Razz

by 6unner Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:43 pm

I found some stats. Not sure how good they are. According to this you are kind of right. Santos is leading in EPL tackles per game at 4.5 which is right above Yennaris at 4 per game.

If you look at UEFA games he is third with 3 tackles. Behind both Song at 6.6 and Frimpong at 5.

http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/13

by Wilson37 Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:17 am

Although stats may not look good and some problems keep on repeating.. But the defence looks better than last season..
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about transfers and replacements..
I feel Gervinho matches Nasris loss.. He creates more and is a better squad player than Nasri.. Nasri scores some amazing goals individually which Gervinho cant do.. But if Gervinho improves his finishing he will be better than Nasri for the team..
And Cesc loss has damaged our creativity and marked the end of our possessive and beautiful football.. Arteta is a different player.. He has added significantly to our defence.. With him our other midfielders especially Song and Ramsey perform better.. And he can make the occasional forward break.. So amazing signing not replacing Cesc but adding something else..
Santos vs Clichy.. Great upgrade offensively and great talent adding to our possession and passing.. Defensively equally good.. Only thing lost is the pace of Clichy..
And Metskr is a completely different type of player.. And the impact time will only tell.. Certainly a step backward in technique possession and passing..
Alex.. Already a star.. And i didnt expect such fast results.. More hyped 'Belgian wonderkid Lukaku' for 18million.. Do we hear about him..? Razz

Jenkinson.. Very promising.. Great for a second option.. And he will be a great player..
Miyachi.. Promising raw talent.. Not seen enough of him..
Park.. Back up striker.. Signing for just name sake..?
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so Wenger again managed great transfers at decent prices...
Some experienced players this time as replacement.. And our usual pool of unknown talented youngsters who will naturally prove themselves...
Only cons being no immediate replacement to wc Fabregas or any top quality midfielder...
So if we had Fabregas or someone close to him and with RVPs extraordinary form this season.. We would be a force fighting for title..

by vivabarca38 Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:14 pm

My opinion on this subject...
Wenger is a world class scout.infact the best scout in the world of the past 10 or 20 years.
He's world class at devoloping young talents.However i think Wenger's man managment is poor,and as a tactican he isnt the best.which has cost Arsenal in alot of defining moments in the last 7 years.

by EarlyPrototype Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:48 pm

The man has set expectations for himself very high a while back and it is all due to him being a great manager and is now the reason he is being criticized.

I myself have thought maybe it is time for Wenger to be sacked, but that was me being delusional. His success speaks for itself. Actions speak louder than words.

He changed the way Arsenal play, he has set a strong structure at the club in a sustainable way. These things should be appreciated imo. The good football they play is good enough for me to tune into the matches lol.

He doesn't even have the financial power clubs like Chelsea and City do. Infact I would say even Spurs and Liverpool are now considered bigger spenders and to be consistently top 4 and still in the Champions league whilst playing good football is a great achievement.

Now if Arsene was to get sacked who would sign and why? Imo there are not any managers out there that would do a better job. He loses his star players quite a lot and always finds alternative cheaper options and even though on paper they seem weaker and weaker the results on the field are still quite impressive. IMO he should not be blamed for the trophy drought. Just my take on it. Thumbs up

by Jay29 Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:13 pm

Wenger clarifies his comments on profits and possible international manager role:

Earlier this week Arsene Wenger was quoted in the Belgian press talking about Eden Hazard but also the club’s need to make £15-20m profit by the start of each season.

Many people took this to mean it had to be made from transfer business alone, but today at his pre-Sunderland press conference, Wenger was asked about the comments and expanded a little on what he meant.

“I mean by that we want to pay the debt back from building the stadium and that’s around £15m, so it’s normal that at the start we have to make £15m or we lose money.”

He was immediately asked if this meant his hands were tied with regard to transfers and he answered with an emphatic “No”, before saying, “I accept one basic principle for every company and that’s that you can spend the money you make, and it looks always to be a massive surprise that I have to convince you of that.

“It’s just common sense and logic that what goes out has to equal what comes in and if that doesn’t work the company loses money.

“I am surprised that you’re surprised? Do you think the target of the club is to lose money? It’s normal for any company in the world so I don’t know why it’s a surprise.”

The boss also ruled himself out of the running for the England job, a question he was asked a surprising number of times given how jingoistic the press have been since Capello was sacked. The idea of the Frenchman in charge of England would certainly send many of them into fits of rage but they needn’t worry, Wenger has no interest in the job whatsoever.

“I have never really been tempted by a national team job because for me it is a completely different job. England is a big football country with over 65 million people who have a big passion for the game.

I love England and I want England to do well. Therefore I let the FA deal with that problem.”

http://news.arseblog.com/2012/02/wenger-clarifies-profit-comments/

So the profits thing was not just related to transfers, and he has no plans to manage France.

by 6unner Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:18 pm

Well FIRE him the sooner the better.
He put together a bad team and is using bad tactics. He has eaten up all the good will that he stopped earning 8 years ago. When he started pushing us to mediocrity. Maybe that would give the players a kick in the ass so they start performing better.
It is time for radical change!

by RealGunner Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:24 pm

Feel sorry for wenger, He is managing probably his worst squad ever.

by Lex Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:25 pm

Can't blame him today. Started on fire. Coquelin got hurt, had to reshuffle the team and the rest is shit history

by Sushi Master Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:27 pm

Wenger needs to get his ass off his philosophy and spend.

Don't mind Wenger, but goddamn is he stubborn sometimes.

by djoe26 Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:30 pm

Sushi Master wrote:Wenger needs to get his ass off his philosophy and spend.

Don't mind Wenger, but goddamn is he stubborn sometimes.

When will he realise that his philosophy isnt working anymore and we've been trophiless for almost 7 years now. Now CL spot is in danger which i think we will surely lose it to someonelse if we continue like this.

by 6unner Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:30 pm

RealGunner wrote:Feel sorry for wenger, He is managing probably his worst squad ever.

Why feel sorry for him he put the team together.

by 6unner Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:39 pm

Lex wrote:Can't blame him today. Started on fire. Coquelin got hurt, had to reshuffle the team and the rest is shit history

What? I just do not think there was much of a difference. We could not keep possession we could not move the ball forward we had no scoring chances.

As Arsenal fans we like to find excuses for everything. It was the pitch, it was the wind, it was injuries, it was they were being mean to us.

No we were crap!

by RealGunner Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:45 pm

6unner wrote:
RealGunner wrote:Feel sorry for wenger, He is managing probably his worst squad ever.

Why feel sorry for him he put the team together.

He was forced into buying them players. His targets always been M'Vila, Gotze and Hazard.

by Lex Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:48 pm

You obviously missed the opening 10 minutes then. They could not touch the ball. Then Coquelin pulled his hammy, Verm had to shift to LB, Squid came on and partnered Djourou in the middle and that was that. Then Squid got hurt being made a bitch my Sessegnon and Larsson, so Song had to drop back into CB. A team comprising of Song and Djourou at CB, Walcott as an AM (no idea who's bright idea that was) and someone in the middle. Who you ask? haven't got the foggiest. The team is so messed up and shuffled, i don't have a clue who's a first team starter and who's back-up anymore

by Lex Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:49 pm

Wenger f*cked up HARD with the whole Mata saga

by 6unner Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:18 pm

Lex wrote:You obviously missed the opening 10 minutes then. They could not touch the ball. Then Coquelin pulled his hammy, Verm had to shift to LB, Squid came on and partnered Djourou in the middle and that was that. Then Squid got hurt being made a bitch my Sessegnon and Larsson, so Song had to drop back into CB. A team comprising of Song and Djourou at CB, Walcott as an AM (no idea who's bright idea that was) and someone in the middle. Who you ask? haven't got the foggiest. The team is so messed up and shuffled, i don't have a clue who's a first team starter and who's back-up anymore

Was curious if Ihad actually missed something. So just watched the first 6:44 that it took for Coquelin to get injured. the majority of our posession was on our side of the pitch. We were able to get it into the final third 2 times. Resulting in 1 corner and 1 free kick for us and 2 breaks by Sunderland. The result of the second one was the injury. It is not like we were actually knocking on the door ready to score or something.

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