Cesc Fabregas - The Lost Lamb

free_cat wrote:Stats are far from garbage. Games are won or lost because of stats. But they don't tell the whole picture.

this

I should rephrase. Stats are fine but if wrongly applied they become pointless. And that is exaxtly what is happening what you talk about Cesc and his goals.

About Cesc, i often feel: He is getting all he wanted (trophies), but we are not.
I doubt he came back to his childhood team, he came back to the best team in the world. I was happy at least to see him benched in the important games. The worst i feel when i cant recognize exactly what position he is contributing on the pitch . People defending him can mention his best games(not on stats) with us. i think those would be countable......

Another goal for Cesc contributing to a Barca win. Excellent stuff Fabregas!

Messiesque goal.

You guys will love this article about Cesc and Thiago:

http://eurofootballweb.com/the-cesc-thiago-dilemma/

Someone from this forum must have written this. "The lost lamb". That's not really a widespread nickname for Cesc.

free_cat wrote:Someone from this forum must have written this. "The lost lamb". That's not really a widespread nickname for Cesc.

I had that feeling while reading it, too. Some of the things that were said were far too similar to some of the things said here, too.

Any observer could notice his sluggishness on the ball, his inability to shield the ball, his frequent turnovers, and most importantly, his clueless positioning. Barcelona fans started calling him “The Lost Lamb”.

That in particular stood out.

LMG writes for them iirc

BarrileteCosmico wrote:LMG writes for them iirc

Yep. Got a few other members of this forum who write there too.

La Liga 11-13 Iniesta - Fabregas

Games 58 - 60

Scoring Fabregas
Goals 5 - 20
Shots per goal 16.8 - 4.7

Build Up Iniesta
Dribbles 119 - 52
Dispossessed 91 - 85
Turnovers 52 - 63

Passing Tie
Assists 25 - 19
Through balls 37 - 39
Key passes 77 - 90
Long balls 144 - 210
Crosses 7 - 12
Pass Accuracy 90% - 88%

Defending Fabregas
Tackles 64 - 85
Interceptions 45 - 44
Clearances 10 - 19
Blocked shots 3 - 6

Influence Fabregas
League points (G+A) 9 - 22

Rating (whoscored) 7.43 - 7.45
MoM (whoscored) 4 - 4

Horrible player.

I can't speak for others but I never believed Fàbregas was a horrible player by any means. His Arsenal displays speak for themselves, and those stats show he has got talent.

Anyway, the main gripe for me when I see him play in Spain or Barcelona is that he is not cut for such footballing philosophy. He's a creative player with fantastic vision and final balls. In such systems however, attributes such as tactical awareness and composure are not only extremely important, but they're vital to the style in which football is played. Unfortunately Fàbregas lacks in those compartments very badly. Generally when I watch Barça the two players who are not on the same wavelength as the others are him and Alba. Hence those stats only tell half of the story, if any.

Get in there guys, Fabregas has played more long balls and crosses than Iniesta => their passing is "tied".

futbol wrote:Get in there guys, Fabregas has played more long balls and crosses than Iniesta => their passing is "tied".

You think Iniesta is better passer? Please do elaborate.

Harmonica wrote:

futbol wrote:Get in there guys, Fabregas has played more long balls and crosses than Iniesta => their passing is "tied".

You think Iniesta is better passer? Please do elaborate.

I won't say anything against Cesc's passing. He's a superb final ball deliverer. Your list is still a bit ... random. Why is playing more long balls and crosses an argument for being a good passer? And that "7.43 vs. 7.45 Whoscored rating" is surely a joke? That's a difference of 0.3 % (Whoscored isn't even that accurate in its player ratings) which makes Cesc more "influental"?

futbol wrote:

Harmonica wrote:

futbol wrote:Get in there guys, Fabregas has played more long balls and crosses than Iniesta => their passing is "tied".

You think Iniesta is better passer? Please do elaborate.

I won't say anything against Cesc's passing. He's a superb final ball deliverer. Your list is still a bit ... random. Why is playing more long balls and crosses an argument for being a good passer?

Umm, if statistics points how you subjectively actually feel, how are they bad? And long balls are surely harder to make than 1 meter side passes and back passes. Also Fabregas did this without adjusting period, when Iniesta had been at the club for some time. If we add Fabregas Arsenal years, he leads every category bar passing percentage 09-13.

And that "7.43 vs. 7.45 Whoscored rating" is surely a joke? That's a difference of 0.3 % (Whoscored isn't even that accurate in its player ratings) which makes Cesc more "influental"?

Yes, the difference is 0.3% which tells, that their statistical output have been about equal. Can't really see the point you are making.

Cesc is more influential based on the importance of his goals and assists, or in other words, Iniesta produced more when the team played better, Fabregas when they played worse.

Harmonica wrote:La Liga 11-13 Iniesta - Fabregas

Games 58 - 60

Scoring Fabregas
Goals 5 - 20
Shots per goal 16.8 - 4.7

Build Up Iniesta
Dribbles 119 - 52
Dispossessed 91 - 85
Turnovers 52 - 63

Passing Tie
Assists 25 - 19
Through balls 37 - 39
Key passes 77 - 90
Long balls 144 - 210
Crosses 7 - 12
Pass Accuracy 90% - 88%

Defending Fabregas
Tackles 64 - 85
Interceptions 45 - 44
Clearances 10 - 19
Blocked shots 3 - 6

Influence Fabregas
League points (G+A) 9 - 22

Rating (whoscored) 7.43 - 7.45
MoM (whoscored) 4 - 4

Horrible player.

And that's why I dont rate players based on stats. Don't get me wrong, Fabregas has not been as bad as some people are saying but no way in hell has Fabregas even been close to as good as iniesta has been this season, and especially not as influential..

harhar11 wrote:And that's why I dont rate players based on stats. Don't get me wrong, Fabregas has not been as bad as some people are saying but no way in hell has Fabregas even been close to as good as iniesta has been this season, and especially not as influential..

The stats are from two seasons.

Does it matter? Fabregas was not better than Iniesta in his first season either..

harhar11 wrote:Does it matter? Fabregas was not better than Iniesta in his first season either..

According to statistics in league, yes he was.

..hence why I have said countless times that stats dont tell the whole story and why I don't rate players based on stats. This aint baseball..

You should know this seeing as you and I have had this conversation before.

Obviously Iniesta is a better player than Cesc, but in terms of pure passing creativity, Cesc is better. He has better "creative passing", whereas Iniesta can play better within the system.

Iniesta has rarely been the sole playmaker of the team. It's pretty close though.

Harmonica wrote:No, you are correct they aren't. But on laws of averages, the external factors tend to average themselves out.

Furthermore, if I understand now correctly, you are now saying that Iniesta makes more difficult passes, goals and assists than Fabregas?

Not goals, but the other 2, yes. Atleast since his arrival from Arsenal..

And I don't agree that they average themself out. I think it depends more on what part of the pitch they play.

harhar11 wrote:

Harmonica wrote:No, you are correct they aren't. But on laws of averages, the external factors tend to average themselves out.

Furthermore, if I understand now correctly, you are now saying that Iniesta makes more difficult passes, goals and assists than Fabregas?

Not goals, but the other 2, yes. Atleast since his arrival from Arsenal..

And I don't agree that they average themself out. Generally speaking, those who play deeper tend to make more impressive passes to get an assist while those who play higher, alot of the time only need to pass it sideways. Just look at Cristiano Ronaldo. He tend to get a high number of assist/key passes and yet his passes are not as impressive as Messi's or Iniesta's..

I think Iniesta's and Fabrega's relative quality off passes is about equal, I can show multiple high difficulty passes from Fabrega's also. So how will you differentiate them and say that collectively Iniesta had it more difficult, furthermore, better? Do you have notes, or do you remember all these things collectively well enough?

Jonathan28 wrote:I would take this whole "stats don't mean anything" stance people seem to suddenly have if they had never used stats to prop up their favourite players, e.g. Ronaldo, Messi etc. I have never seen so much flip flopping in my life, either stats matter or they don't, make up your damned minds.

'either stats matter or they don't"......Why it has to be binary?? what reasons do you have behind saying so??? I say stats alone cant conclude anything its role is supportive. What logic do you have to say i am wrong?

So. I cleaned out the thread from all the petty bickering, trolling and off-topic stuff. I hope I didn't forget anything. If I catch someone trolling and going OT after this my post here, I will issue warnings freely. I hope that is understood.