List of players that rejected Spurs recently

CBarca wrote:I'm not going to pretend I know Arsenal's inner workings, I respect Arsenal but as a fan of Barcelona and to a lesser extent, Tottenham, it's understandable I don't particularly enjoy your club. So yes I will admit I don't have the view of an entire landscape.

Trust me when I say this, but Barca was the closest there was to a 'second team' for me before 2010. It changed that summer. And I can never see Barca the same way after last summer - so much so that I can stomach Mourinho for the sake of seeing Barca lose. I will not apologize for this, as a gooner, I have every right to have my feelings. Nor do I approve of Barca players being disrespectful of other clubs by talking about other players fitting in. We taught Cesc well, and it showed when he said 'I will not speak about Song because it would be disrespcetful to Arsenal.' I didn't like him for leaving us, but he gained some of my respect this day. Maybe Biscuits and Iniesta have to learn the good things from him here.

But I digress massively here. Obviously, I am not from London and the only real 'rivals' I have known are clubs I have seen Arsenal compete with over the years. But Tottenham has a special place reserved in my hatelist, because the fans harbour hate towards what I love. A mutual reciprocation can only be expected, eh?

CBarca wrote:
But a quick question, do you need to view the whole entire landscape to accurately judge something? It helps, but I wouldn't say it's necessary. I think saying I don't have a right to judge Arsenal's situation because I don't know the inner workings is wrong. Especially when none of us, you and I both don't know the full 'landscape'. Unless you work directly with Arsenals finances, yes you do know more than me, but you don't have the full 'landscape' either.

I'm enjoying this too much. It's like Goal.com lithium forums, it really is. I have to thank both you and Peccadillo for being such good fun to talk with.

Nope, but as a person who spends a lot more time observing this club, I can say that I have a somwhat better idea? Because I am not just reading the news and tabloids and blogs, but also using my observations and experiences as a gooner over the last 10 or so years? Or are you suggesting all that counts for jackall? I would be very offended to hear that, when personally, I feel that I know more about this club than the average season ticket holder.

And without a view of the entire landscape, you are only making biased judgements. With a relatively better view and deeper understanding, I see no reason why my judgement should be for the worse. If you can prove that the logic in the Swiss Ramble post is flawed, then I will believe that you have a better judgement on Arsenal's finances. Till then, as a person who has read, re-read and digested every word in that masterpiece article with good logic, I have the right to claim that I have the better view to the landscape.

Ofcourse, this is not a question of who is right or a test of the bigger ego, but a discussion of reason. Like I said, give me what you have and I will give you the truth, as I know it. If you can give an irrefutable point based on logic and understanding, I will concede that you are right about it.

PS: I always enjoy a good discussion, even if it is with a Spur/Barca fan Oh btw, I edited my last post to respond to your comment on this summer.

CBarca wrote:
I am, I am not an Arsenal fan so I'm (while not completely ignorant) relatively ignorant as to how the financial situation is at Arsenal, thanks for the reading material, I will be sure to check it out. Perhaps I'm wrong when I say that you have the finances to throw money at the market, but for some reason, I don't think I am, especially when you compare Arsenal's debt to other clubs, but I'll check it out. The part in red is a good point.

I honestly meant no disrespect and I don't expect everybody to know the in's and out's of AFC's finances.. But I do think when making statements its important you do not present them as factual if they are not. It destroys your entire argument that Arsenal are un-ambitious as your point relies on this statement being accurate, which it isnt.

The fact is.. yes we can physically afford to spend 30mil on a new striker to appease skysportsnews. But we are not in a position, such as that of Real, Barca, City, Chelsea where we can run the risk of making investments of such proportions which carry such obvious risks (such as the player getting injured, not adapting properly, losing form etc). Maybe in the not too distance future we can flex our spending muscles a little bit more.

Now here I must disagree ... I guess the key word here though is capable, and I think that Arsenal do seem fairly capable each year of winning some kind of trophy, so I guess I can't really disagree there, if that is exactly what you are speaking of.

Players develop throughout seasons. Stars are born, 30million pound, 200k p/week strikers die in the ass and can't buy a goal. Although I understand your point I re-iterate that we simply cannot compete with the likes of chelsea, city and even united with the money that they can offer. Srigooner brought up Juan Mata as a prime example of this. We can try, but ultimately we have a lot more obstacles than our rivals at this stage in the transition.

As for the figures, you'll see that every club there has spent more than Arsenal per year, and every team there has also been more successful in terms of trophies in the last 6 years or so. In the case of Spurs though, I can agree that Arsenal have seen more overall success. However those figures do not at all overwhelmingly support your concept that money does not mean success. And surely spending money does not necessarily mean success, that would be a foolish thing to say (that splashing cash and buying players willy nilly brings success), it is smart spending of money, look at Newcastle, or Man United for example. If I haven't made that clear enough, my apologies. I would always assume when that if a club is spending money, they're doing it responsibly.

If you think I am criticizing the way Arsenal is run, you don't understand me right, but I can maintain that while it is economically responsible, that does not equate to ambition. No, it does not.

The figures tell me a different story. It tells me;

1. City's spending is out of control and is part of a larger problem which can probably be discussed in greater detail in another thread.

2. Liverpool have seen very little reward over the past 5 years for their hefty transfer investment. I have been levelling with you, so I hope you level with me in acknowledgement that the Carling Cup or League Cup doesn't really matter.

3. I will acknowledge that Chelsea have seen positive results through their ridiculous investment. I argue that Manchester United have seen similar success on transfer figures significantly lower than that of Chelsea.

4. That Tottenham have seen NO real return on their investment which MORE than doubles that of Arsenal - yet we have had more success. I highlighted this in bold as this is relevant to this topic and the main figure I wanted to draw attention to.

I guess there are different ways to interpret the figures and as always there are other contributing factors such as the fact both MU and Arsenal are blessed with fantastic managers.

I don't think you are critizing the way Arsenal is run, based on your argument you have made it clear you don't agree with it and you feel its indicative of a lack of ambition. The latter I disagree with, the former is your opinion - which I accept.

You presume that the more money you spend, the more ambitious you are, this argument is not hard to flaw as shown by no obvious correlation in the figures I posted with the success of those teams. There are many contributing factors and every club has their own circumstances and philosophies.

At Arsenal we have unique philosophies and values which a lot of gooner's are proud of. I would like to see us maintain our integrity, we are hardly facing a crisis and I do not believe our ambition is to simply push for fourth place, we go for the title and we will again this season. Can we match Man City team sheet this season? No. But we have something they dont have.

we will see who will be laughing at the end of the season.

Your first comment have no relevance here so I won't respond to them but I appreciate them anyway, it's always nice getting to know someone somewhat better.

srigooner wrote: Nope, but as a person who spends a lot more time observing this club, I can say that I have a somwhat better idea? Because I am not just reading the news and tabloids and blogs, but also using my observations and experiences as a gooner over the last 10 or so years? Or are you suggesting all that counts for jackall? I would be very offended to hear that, when personally, I feel that I know more about this club than the average season ticket holder.

I certainly am not saying that at all but I don't want you think that you have the full view and I don't. Because neither of us do. If I am to admit I'm biased due to not knowing the full situation, you must too. You do know more, but of course knowing more does not necessarily mean being right, which brings up our disagreement on Arsenals ambition yes?

srigooner wrote: And without a view of the entire landscape, you are only making biased judgements. With a relatively better view and deeper understanding, I see no reason why my judgement should be for the worse. If you can prove that the logic in the Swiss Ramble post is flawed, then I will believe that you have a better judgement on Arsenal's finances. Till then, as a person who has read, re-read and digested every word in that masterpiece article with good logic, I have the right to claim that I have the better view to the landscape.

Ofcourse, this is not a question of who is right or a test of the bigger ego, but a discussion of reason. Like I said, give me what you have and I will give you the truth, as I know it. If you can give an irrefutable point based on logic and understanding, I will concede that you are right about it.

What you have said here has been already discussed by me directly above this. However, I think we are digressing, yes?

Pursie questioned our ambition following the departure of key players, who we replaced with emergency buys.

I personally found this interesting. Him being your captain and all, of course he's also a douche, but I still think his opinion has some weight, with him working directly with Arsenal and also being your captain (or..ex-captain)

We were proactive in buying two strikers to replace him before his statement questioning the club.

Are these signings an improvement, even (to RVP)? We'll have to wait and see, as for now, I have to admit they show some ambition. Some

We sold Song with 3 years left on his contract. Please read up on the reasons for his sale. And it is no indication of a lack of ambition, because despite his 'creativity', Song was a player neglecting his role in the team. You can also look up the statistics comparing Song's defensive attributes in the last 3 years and the stats comparing him with Sahin, Arteta and Cazorla defensively. We are better off if we can replace him with Sahin and/or M'Vila/Capoue with Coquelin stepping up. No 'lack of ambition' there.

I would question the ambition of Arsenal with this sale if I rated Song...but also for the reasons you mention and also some of the reasons he was sold. I can agree with you here. And I have to say I commend Arsenal with this sale, as it's a great piece of business from you guys, and absolutely awful business from Barca. You guys still lack a very good defensive midfielder however, so it would be a lack of ambition to not get one IMO, but that is my opinion, which is why it will be interesting to see if you guys sign one or not.

@ Peccadillo

It is getting late and I can't respond in full detail, and forgive me if this relatively brief response is somewhat offensive by how brief it is, or if I'm misunderstanding you, but I might respond later in greater detail.

I can maintain that while it is economically responsible, that does not equate to ambition. No, it does not.

This is something I said.

I'm still wondering how being economically responsible and financially stable as Arsenal is equates to ambition to win a trophy. This is an overall theme which I still think is not being addressed properly.

CBarca wrote:Your first comment have no relevance here so I won't respond to them but I appreciate them anyway, it's always nice getting to know someone somewhat better.

I certainly am not saying that at all but I don't want you think that you have the full view and I don't. Because neither of us do. If I am to admit I'm biased due to not knowing the full situation, you must too. You do know more, but of course knowing more does not necessarily mean being right, which brings up our disagreement on Arsenals ambition yes?

I agree that I don't have the full view. I am saying I have followed this club long enough to have the better view ON ARSENAL. I am not claiming to be an expert on any other team, when I am hardly an expert on my own team. But I do have a better understanding than the average season ticket holder and half those rag-a-tag 'pundit'/'journalist' buckwads. Armed with this belief, I am trying to prove that your arguments on our 'lack of ambition' are not entirely well founded or valid. Does this clarify my previous post(s)?

CBarca wrote:

Pursie questioned our ambition following the departure of key players, who we replaced with emergency buys.

I personally found this interesting. Him being your captain and all, of course he's also a douche, but I still think his opinion has some weight, with him working directly with Arsenal and also being your captain (or..ex-captain)

Being a captain in a football team is like being an assistant coach? The captain is the leader on the pitch. But it is hardly a strategic role, unlike some other sports (like Cricket, for example). We have seen some great footballers grow into apalling managers. Being a manager/trainer is a strategic role. I see no reason why his opinions as a captain make jackall difference. After one and a half injury free seasons, he has more knowledge about the game than Arsene Wenger? We do not want players who think they are bigger than the club. The only legend I recognize is Arsene Wenger, and to some extent Henry. The rest were good players is all.

CBarca wrote:

We were proactive in buying two strikers to replace him before his statement questioning the club.

Are these signings an improvement, even (to RVP)? We'll have to wait and see, as for now, I have to admit they show some ambition. Some

Time will tell It is not right to expect new arrivals to immediately adapt to the league and outscore the top scorer from the previous season. But football is a team game. As long as the team does well, the top scorer doesn't really matter.

CBarca wrote:

We sold Song with 3 years left on his contract. Please read up on the reasons for his sale. And it is no indication of a lack of ambition, because despite his 'creativity', Song was a player neglecting his role in the team. You can also look up the statistics comparing Song's defensive attributes in the last 3 years and the stats comparing him with Sahin, Arteta and Cazorla defensively. We are better off if we can replace him with Sahin and/or M'Vila/Capoue with Coquelin stepping up. No 'lack of ambition' there.

I would question the ambition of Arsenal with this sale if I rated Song...but also for the reasons you mention and also some of the reasons he was sold. I can agree with you here. And I have to say I commend Arsenal with this sale, as it's a great piece of business from you guys, and absolutely awful business from Barca. You guys still lack a very good defensive midfielder however, so it would be a lack of ambition to not get one IMO, but that is my opinion, which is why it will be interesting to see if you guys sign one or not.

It would be a lack of ambition if we didn't bolster our midfield, maybe. But you also have to understand the number of midfielders already on our roster, competing for 3 spots in the starting 11. And if the first game of the season is anything to go by, there seems to be a shift in tactics from relying on a 'DM'. I recommend you to read a blog post by Gingers4Limpar (google it) on a shift in Arsenal's midfield strategy. Clearly, Song wasn't doing a role as a 'DM' anymore last season and we are looking for someone to do the job that Song was doing, better. (I hope that is Sahin).

ÖMARz wrote:we will see who will be laughing at the end of the season.

heard that in 2005

heard that in 2006

heard that in 2007

heard that in 2008

heard that in 2009

heard that in 2010

heard that in 2011

Remember " Mind the Gap", you lost a 13 point lead

FOREVER IN OUR SHADOWS

aleumdance wrote:

ÖMARz wrote:we will see who will be laughing at the end of the season.

heard that in 2005
heard that in 2006
heard that in 2007
heard that in 2008
heard that in 2009
heard that in 2010
heard that in 2011

Remember " Mind the Gap", you lost a 13 point lead

FOREVER IN OUR SHADOWS

I didn't even bother. Shame on you for kicking a man when he's down.

@CBarca

This is something I said.

I'm still wondering how being economically responsible and financially stable as Arsenal is equates to ambition to win a trophy. This is an overall theme which I still think is not being addressed properly..

I never claimed that being economically responsible equates to ambition. I am not trying to prove a point, I'm just disproving yours.. (about the ambition side of your argument - not trying to invalidate all your points). I also question your notion that money spent on big transfer's directly equates to 'ambition'.. ambition is achieved through a number of ways. You have to be calculated in transfer's you make.. Arshavin was the last time we decided to show 'amibition' in the form that you speak of and look how that turned out..

Klose.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/10/italy/2012/09/13/3374139/klose-reveals-tottenham-snub