Re: 'The Messiah' - Lionel Messi V.2

by Winter is Coming Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:46 pm

Is there something left to be desired from Messi performance for Argentina? Yes, but is his performance/contribution as bad as some people want to make it out to be? No.

The comparison of his performance with Barcelona and Argentina need to stop, with Barcelona there's a team that has an understanding, tactics, idea, philosophy, chemistry etc Argentina imo lack in this and it isn't Messi job for all the joking we do with Coachessi, it comes down to the coach poor subs, leaving some players who merit a shot at first team at home and so forth.

Argentina defence as shown in the last WC and this Copa was been solid but a lot to be desire from the midfield and attack on paper solid, but on the pitch mostly clueless.

If I'm not mistaken doesn't Messi play as a mid for Argentina?

And your pushing it when you say X player would've won Argentina the title last night lol especially Gerrard Laughing

by ahmad25 Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:42 pm

International tournaments are luck. 20 days long cup doesnt show your true ability after 60 game season
Which team happens to be in best form at that time wins it
Also i dont think messi winning world cup would change anything. He was 1 goal away from winning it so whats the big difference?some people are like "I dont care just wake me up when he wins it" Very Happy

So what would change if higuain scored that sitter? Messi would be in maradona level? New excuses would begin. He didnt score in KO stages. He scored in KO stages ok but someone was injured or he had best players around let him do it with kazakhstan

by messixaviesta Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:11 pm

Winter is Coming wrote:
And your pushing it when you say X player would've won Argentina the title last night lol especially Gerrard

I said it because I have seen these players in very tough situations try and do more than Messi. Maybe I can't be certain of it but it's a thought in my mind and that's it. As for Gerrard in the UCL 2004-05 final he drove his team to turn around a 3-0 deficit at half time in the final. For all his talent I don't think Messi can ever do that. Like I said before Messi is much more talented than anyone else but there are other aspects of the game such as driving, organizing, fighting, leading, tenacity, strength, stamina, bravery, etc. in which a few other players are better than him. I don't see why I should be compelled to say that Messi is the best at absolutely everything. So when I think that in a particular match it's some of these qualities that were needed even more than talent then I tend to think some or the other player could have done better than Messi in this situation. It's a thought and that's all.

Other than that I agree with the rest of your post though.

As for the point that Messi could have won these matches had Higuain scored that's true but I think that sympathy would have been more justified if Messi had been brilliant in these matches. He was below par in the world cup final and even worse in the Copa final. For a player so talented to play so much below his level in not one but two successive international finals is not something I can accept easily. While there may be a lot of things wrong around him there are some things wrong within him as well then I don't see any harm in pointing that out. I spoke after the Copa and am not going to continue to speak for too long on this topic but what is much more important for me is that I am now much more clear in my own mind. For long I have been perplexed with the question about how great Messi really is and how great he isn't and after this Copa final I finally feel as if I have nearly all the answers.

by sree999 Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:34 pm

Yes he lacked tenacity . Chile where up for it. Walkessi showed no fight . It wasn't a football match it was mote like a WWE match or a lower level bpl match . Chile totally nuetralised him by rough play . Mendel would have seen red if it was a champions league game .Talent alone will not work all the time .Sometimes you need need grit and determination to win games .

by Harmonica Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:38 pm

Xaviesta

WC10 champion
Euro 08 champion (Xavi Best Player)
Euro 12 champion (Iniesta Best Player)

Messi @28

WC14 runner-up (Best Player)
CA07 runner-up (Best Young Player)
CA15 runner-up (Best Player)

hmm

by M99 Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:15 pm

Walkessi

lmao sree

by ahmad25 Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:52 pm

sree999 wrote:Yes he lacked tenacity . Chile where up for it. Walkessi showed no fight . It wasn't a football match it was mote like a WWE match or a lower level bpl match . Chile totally nuetralised him by rough play . Mendel would have seen red if it was a champions league game .Talent alone will not work all the time .Sometimes you need need grit and determination to win games .

agree with this. When messi feels that it will be rough WWE match he decides to walk
'The Messiah' - Lionel Messi V.2 - Page 26 31479911

'The Messiah' - Lionel Messi V.2 - Page 26 918a9611

This was the messi's last challenge on the pitch.after that kick he doesnt fight anymore

by alexjanosik Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:24 am

messixaviesta wrote:I don't doubt Messi's talent one slightest bit but being the best that can possibly be is about a little more than talent. Does Messi lack just a little bit in terms of heart and mental toughness in the tightest, hardest and most crucial of occasions? Maybe having top quality players in Barcelona alongside him, some of whom are marginally superior to him in terms of heart and mental toughness, makes us rarely see these shortcomings there but with the national team even though there are a few players like Mascherano who have as much heart and toughness as possible, not having as much talent as Barca, exposes these shortcomings of Messi all the more.

Maradona was Maradona not just for his talent but also for his determination, fighting spirit, mental toughness and leadership (ability to drive his team and bring the best out of others). Maybe in spite of being just as talented if not more Messi can never be Maradona and maybe this is the reason for it.

I never watched Maradona live but there are a few other players who I have watched for years who I think, had they been on the pitch instead of Messi last night, Argentina would have won. Maybe no one will agree with me but I think someone like Zinedine Zidane, Andres Iniesta, Xavi, Pavel Nedved, Steven Gerrard and a few others would have won the match for Argentina last night. We were superior to Chile on paper. They didn't have the big names that we had. What was most missing for us was the one player who could drive things from midfield. Argentina's play maker was Javier Pastore and while he has impressed me with his talent he has also convinced me that he has even less heart, toughness and personality than Messi. It's actually the much maligned Angel Di Maria who probably is the closest to the kind of player Argentina needed last night. Maybe he couldn't have done it but I think the ones I named would likely have done it.

Yes it's true that when Messi had the ball in the right area he was still capable of creating a magical moment and yes it's true that Higuain etc. bottled it big time but what's unforgivable is that this was only Messi's second (and maybe last) international final and he hid on the pitch for so long. Last year in the world cup final he had done something similar but this time it was even more conspicuous. Like alex, dani and a few others here have mentioned time and again laziness has become a disease that Messi just cannot be cured of any more. No one knew more than Messi just how important this was for Argentina and for Messi but he just didn't do enough to the extent that my eyes could barely believe what I was watching. Does the world's greatest player look unsure and scared just because the going has got tough and he is in a battle more than in a football match? Maybe in spite of the superstar that he has become within Messi there still lies that child that suffered from hormonal growth deficiencies and he happens to show himself in the most inopportune of occasions. I can't believe I am saying this but for the very first time I actually understand why some in Argentina don't like Messi and accept their point of view to some extent.

BTW let it be understood very clearly that Barcelona was never a one man team, at least not when we were at our best. Messi is Barca's best player but Barca is much more than Messi. When Messi in a major final sees Iniesta, Xavi, Suarez, Neymar, etc. next to him he feels that much more confidence that the team will win. Without them he loses belief really fast. Messi is essentially a comfort player who needs others to fight and work to make things rosy for him so that he can then work the kind of magic that only he is capable of. He is not a Maradona and cannot do it alone, whatever that may mean.

Maybe this is just a knee jerk reaction from me. Maybe more. I don't know and maybe will never know.

I mostly agree and it is what I have been saying all along. Until he can bring his best form for Argentina and display a transcendental performance,he wont be counted amongst the Holy trinity of Pele,Maradona and Cruyff.I dont mean that he has to win the WC but he has to have a signature tournament like they did.Until then,he will always be mentioned in a tier below them,no matter how much he wins with us.

TBh,I am a little sympathetic with his performance this Copa. He arrived in the form of his life.Unfortunately for him, this Copa happened to be the most cynical tournament in recent history.It didnt help that he was offered very little protection by refs who let cynical play go on. I thought he dribbled quite brilliantly under the tough circumstances but his passing was uncharacteristically off.And when things dont go his way, he starts walking which only compounds the problem.And ofcourse he lacks that intangible which you have alluded to in your post.When things arent going his way,he lacks that extra something which other greats have had.
Still I think he played better in this Copa than in the WC.His play in the KO stages of the WC was shocking and the lack of effort was painful to watch.

Where I disagree with your post is regarding Maradona. I think Messi is a throwback to the older day superstar, like Maradona.A magician who would not offer much movement or defense and just wait for the ball at his feet to then work his magic.Ironically, I think Messi would have fared much better playing for his NT around the same time Maradona did.Back then,a team could afford such a luxury player.
Nowadays a team cant afford such a luxury player who doesnt offer much movement.Same reason why I think Maradona wouldnt have been as successful playing for Argentina as he was back in 86. His space would have been closed down far more easily just like it does with Messi.

The reason why Messi can get away with it at Barca is that we monopolize possession and repeatedly get him the ball in areas where he can do most damage.So his lack of movement isnt as much of a problem.Mind you,it was a major problem last 3 years before this past season.This year he improved a bit and we had Neymar and Suarez.So teams couldnt focus solely on Messi.That coupled with him getting the ball repeatedly in dangerous areas is why it works for us.

Argetina dont monopolize possession and messi doesnt get the ball as much in dangerous areas.They also dont have a Suarez or Neymar who can draw some markers giving Messi some breathing space.

And because he doesnt move,he becomes easy and predictable to defend against.I know what he is going to do even before the match starts.He is going to wait in that right central position for the ball.he isnt going to offer any off the ball runs.he isnt going to make himself free for a pass.After a while of not seeing the ball,he gets frustrated,drops deep into midfield for the ball.gets the ball.If he is lucky,he will go on a nice dribbling run,lay it off to the overlapping winger on the left(Di Maria) and make the trailing run into the box.But he is marked and cant get the ball back.if he is unlucky,he gets dispossessed on the dribble or fouled.Rinse and repeat for 90 minutes.Extremely easy to defend against for a well drilled and disciplined team like Chile.

Bottom line.He needs to run and offer more movement.IMO, movement is the single biggest reason the likes of Neymar,Suarez,Xavi and Iniesta are much better NT players than Messi.They are in perpetual motion and thus are much harder to defend against than a static player like Messi. Messi may be more talented but he is very static and predictable in his movements(or lack of it), which makes him easier to defend.
Until he stops being lazy and actually puts in the effort,he is going to find international success hard to come by.

by Cruijf Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:03 am

Agree with everything you say Alex, other than the conclusion that Messi's lack of off the ball movement is due to laziness.

Over the past 3 or 4 years, he has gradually started to move less off the ball, that is undeniable. Nevertheless, with the exception of the 13-14 season, he was never as static as he is for Argentina with Barcelona.

Just go back and watch a game like the CL final or another big game for Barca this season, and then immediately watch the Copa final. You'll notice a difference I simply can't explain. I don't know if it's due to fatigue or something else, but I find it difficult to believe its due to laziness. You don't work hard during one big game and then become lazy for another. There is some difference between Barcelona and Argentina that I don't think anyone thus far has been able to determine, but that is the single biggest reason he under performs for Argentina.

Some have suggested it is a mental thing, but I again find that difficult to believe. You're telling me the person that has so often delivered in big games when his team needed him most let the mighty occasion of a Copa America final get to his head? Not buying it.

The final thing I want to note is this lack of off the ball movement for Argentina is a new thing. In the 2010 WC, Messi was actually very good, on and off the ball. It's almost as if his decline in off the ball movement at club level has been exaggerated at NT level, but again I don't know why.

by Myesyats Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:22 am

Messi played 57 games this season (5061 minutes) and went straight onto the tournament without a single day of rest. Also, he was again coached by a clueless moron who managed to isolate him in Barca and now in Argentina.

I don't blame him one bit. After that long ass season and tactics that don't suit him at all, I knew he'd not perform to the expectations.

I blame Martino for everything. He's a *bleep* pos and I still have no idea how this guy managed to get a job at Barcelona and Argentina. He knows nothing.

by ahmad25 Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:40 am

Some reasons are clear i agree with all of them. If messi feels there will be no messi show in this match he decides not to bother. First 10 minutes vs chile he was pressing and running after he gave up. Against r.madrid he didnt even try from first minute because of their animal like behaviours. He knows if he goes into hard challenge some of their players will hit him.mourinho used to stop him using animal tactics and this is still in messi's head

But there is one more reason.I think lack of movement has to do with his explosive long dribblings. Such dribblers get injured very easily. Just look at di maria one long dribbling and he is gone. if he puts more pressure in his muscles he will get injured. it must be doctors instruction to make him available for 60+ games a season without a single injury

by Harmonica Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:59 am

Xaviesta+Villa

WC10 champion (Villa Bronze Ball)
Euro 08 champion (Xavi Best Player)
Euro 12 champion (Iniesta Best Player)

Messi @28

WC14 runner-up (Golden Ball)
CA07 runner-up (Best Young Player)
CA15 runner-up (MVP)

Amazing that Messi has already catched, and surpassed these in national team performance's.

by free_cat Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:18 am

It's just a pity that he hasn't won the tournament. Poor Messi, how unlucky. I hope Argentina sacks Martino and finnally appoint a good manager. They should go with a European manager, or if they insist with and Argentine, only Bielsa and Simeone are good enough.

by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:38 pm

http://bet.unibet.co.uk/football/international-football/destroyed-leo-messi-may-never-have-perfect-career-no-one-does

Good article for those that keep comparing him to Maradona and Pele

by Valkyrja Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:55 pm

Messi's World Cup problem might not actually be his problem, but 'the world cup's problem'. That's world cup's bad look IMO, that players like Messi, Cruyff,Zico, Platini, Eusebio, Di Stefano and even Cristiano have never won.

by messixaviesta Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:47 pm

alexjanosik wrote:
messixaviesta wrote:I don't doubt Messi's talent one slightest bit but being the best that can possibly be is about a little more than talent. Does Messi lack just a little bit in terms of heart and mental toughness in the tightest, hardest and most crucial of occasions? Maybe having top quality players in Barcelona alongside him, some of whom are marginally superior to him in terms of heart and mental toughness, makes us rarely see these shortcomings there but with the national team even though there are a few players like Mascherano who have as much heart and toughness as possible, not having as much talent as Barca, exposes these shortcomings of Messi all the more.

Maradona was Maradona not just for his talent but also for his determination, fighting spirit, mental toughness and leadership (ability to drive his team and bring the best out of others). Maybe in spite of being just as talented if not more Messi can never be Maradona and maybe this is the reason for it.

I never watched Maradona live but there are a few other players who I have watched for years who I think, had they been on the pitch instead of Messi last night, Argentina would have won. Maybe no one will agree with me but I think someone like Zinedine Zidane, Andres Iniesta, Xavi, Pavel Nedved, Steven Gerrard and a few others would have won the match for Argentina last night. We were superior to Chile on paper. They didn't have the big names that we had. What was most missing for us was the one player who could drive things from midfield. Argentina's play maker was Javier Pastore and while he has impressed me with his talent he has also convinced me that he has even less heart, toughness and personality than Messi. It's actually the much maligned Angel Di Maria who probably is the closest to the kind of player Argentina needed last night. Maybe he couldn't have done it but I think the ones I named would likely have done it.

Yes it's true that when Messi had the ball in the right area he was still capable of creating a magical moment and yes it's true that Higuain etc. bottled it big time but what's unforgivable is that this was only Messi's second (and maybe last) international final and he hid on the pitch for so long. Last year in the world cup final he had done something similar but this time it was even more conspicuous. Like alex, dani and a few others here have mentioned time and again laziness has become a disease that Messi just cannot be cured of any more. No one knew more than Messi just how important this was for Argentina and for Messi but he just didn't do enough to the extent that my eyes could barely believe what I was watching. Does the world's greatest player look unsure and scared just because the going has got tough and he is in a battle more than in a football match? Maybe in spite of the superstar that he has become within Messi there still lies that child that suffered from hormonal growth deficiencies and he happens to show himself in the most inopportune of occasions. I can't believe I am saying this but for the very first time I actually understand why some in Argentina don't like Messi and accept their point of view to some extent.

BTW let it be understood very clearly that Barcelona was never a one man team, at least not when we were at our best. Messi is Barca's best player but Barca is much more than Messi. When Messi in a major final sees Iniesta, Xavi, Suarez, Neymar, etc. next to him he feels that much more confidence that the team will win. Without them he loses belief really fast. Messi is essentially a comfort player who needs others to fight and work to make things rosy for him so that he can then work the kind of magic that only he is capable of. He is not a Maradona and cannot do it alone, whatever that may mean.

Maybe this is just a knee jerk reaction from me. Maybe more. I don't know and maybe will never know.

I mostly agree and it is what I have been saying all along. Until he can bring his best form for Argentina and display a transcendental performance,he wont be counted amongst the Holy trinity of Pele,Maradona and Cruyff.I dont mean that he has to win the WC but he has to have a signature tournament like they did.Until then,he will always be mentioned in a tier below them,no matter how much he wins with us.

TBh,I am a little sympathetic with his performance this Copa. He arrived in the form of his life.Unfortunately for him, this Copa happened to be the most cynical tournament in recent history.It didnt help that he was offered very little protection by refs who let cynical play go on. I thought he dribbled quite brilliantly under the tough circumstances but his passing was uncharacteristically off.And when things dont go his way, he starts walking which only compounds the problem.And ofcourse he lacks that intangible which you have alluded to in your post.When things arent going his way,he lacks that extra something which other greats have had.
Still I think he played better in this Copa than in the WC.His play in the KO stages of the WC was shocking and the lack of effort was painful to watch.

Where I disagree with your post is regarding Maradona. I think Messi is a throwback to the older day superstar, like Maradona.A magician who would not offer much movement or defense and just wait for the ball at his feet to then work his magic.Ironically, I think Messi would have fared much better playing for his NT around the same time Maradona did.Back then,a team could afford such a luxury player.
Nowadays a team cant afford such a luxury player who doesnt offer much movement.Same reason why I think Maradona wouldnt have been as successful playing for Argentina as he was back in 86. His space would have been closed down far more easily just like it does with Messi.

The reason why Messi can get away with it at Barca is that we monopolize possession and repeatedly get him the ball in areas where he can do most damage.So his lack of movement isnt as much of a problem.Mind you,it was a major problem last 3 years before this past season.This year he improved a bit and we had Neymar and Suarez.So teams couldnt focus solely on Messi.That coupled with him getting the ball repeatedly in dangerous areas is why it works for us.

Argetina dont monopolize possession and messi doesnt get the ball as much in dangerous areas.They also dont have a Suarez or Neymar who can draw some markers giving Messi some breathing space.

And because he doesnt move,he becomes easy and predictable to defend against.I know what he is going to do even before the match starts.He is going to wait in that right central position for the ball.he isnt going to offer any off the ball runs.he isnt going to make himself free for a pass.After a while of not seeing the ball,he gets frustrated,drops deep into midfield for the ball.gets the ball.If he is lucky,he will go on a nice dribbling run,lay it off to the overlapping winger on the left(Di Maria) and make the trailing run into the box.But he is marked and cant get the ball back.if he is unlucky,he gets dispossessed on the dribble or fouled.Rinse and repeat for 90 minutes.Extremely easy to defend against for a well drilled and disciplined team like Chile.

Bottom line.He needs to run and offer more movement.IMO, movement is the single biggest reason the likes of Neymar,Suarez,Xavi and Iniesta are much better NT players than Messi. They are in perpetual motion and thus are much harder to defend against than a static player like Messi. Messi may be more talented but he is very static and predictable in his movements(or lack of it), which makes him easier to defend.
Until he stops being lazy and actually puts in the effort,he is going to find international success hard to come by.

alex, once again an excellent analysis from you. Nice to see that we largely agree.

Yes I have also always said that more than winning the world cup it's very important to deliver an era defining performance in it. Pele and Maradona are remembered for the timeless world cup wins and Cruyff has universal empathy for an outstanding performance in a losing effort. In spite of his hotly debated best player trophy at WC 2014 Messi hasn't come anywhere close to this kind of stuff.

Yes the lack of intangibles and laziness are the key problems. If he gets the ball at his feet in the right areas he can work magic that only he is capable of at any moment.

You say Messi would be better off in that era with more space. It's an acceptable point but the counter point that comes to my mind is how well would Messi have handled the likes of Claudio Gentile (and he was certainly not the only one) in those days? This Copa aside, players nowadays get so much more protection.

No question Neymar and Suarez helped us get over that problem to a large extent. I have thought time and again that Suarez was the missing piece in our jigsaw. Suddenly everything fit in as if magically and we went from terrible to treble in a very short time.

Yes having others to distract defenders is very helpful. No wonder mole said that even in not so great form Di Maria's direct dribbling drew markers towards him and gave Messi more space. Argentina looked much worse once Di Maria went off.

Very well elaborated on how exactly Messi plays nowadays. Nothing that I can add there.

I have given up hope that Messi will stop being lazy and for that matter ever win a major international tournament, at least not a world cup. This season was my final hope. He was in the form of his life all season even by his peerless standards and I had also seen him working a little harder from time to time. So if he couldn't do it this season and that too in a final my feeling is that he may never do it. Of course I am not a soothsayer and wouldn't mind being proved wrong some day.

by messixaviesta Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:00 pm

free_cat wrote:They should go with a European manager, or if they insist with and Argentine, only Bielsa and Simeone are good enough.

Simeone is great but he is also very negative due to which he may turn out to be not too different from Alejandro Sabella. He could give Argentina more of a winning mentality though. So worth trying.

As for Bielsa he is too eccentric. For all his greatness is he still capable of taking a team to the top trophies. I have my doubts.

by messixaviesta Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:15 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:http://bet.unibet.co.uk/football/international-football/destroyed-leo-messi-may-never-have-perfect-career-no-one-does

Good article for those that keep comparing him to Maradona and Pele

Indeed very nice article. Really enjoyed reading it.

This article reminded me of WC 1994 and I have a question about it especially for Argentines like yourself.

Argentina had won both Copa America 1991 and 1993 and that too without Maradona. I just read that they also won Confederations Cup 1992. I would presume they were right up there with the best teams at that time and one of the hot favorites for WC 1994. Maradona's sudden return as the article says temporarily destabilized the team. Still once the world cup started they looked red hot with Gabriel Batistuta in awesome form. Then came Maradona's failed drug test and expulsion and everything collapsed. I suppose it must have been the psychological blow coupled with having to switch between playing with him and without him. So my question is if Maradona hadn't returned would Argentina have had a legit chance of winning the tournament?

by messixaviesta Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:24 pm

It's not like that Messi didn't care enough. Every picture shows him looking broken and every report says the same. Also it's being said that he has refused the player of the tournament award.

In that sense shouldn't his lack of effort be baffling? Perhaps the only way to explain it is what dani said some time back that if you don't do it on a day to day basis you can't just suddenly do it even if it is a final.

Messi at this moment seems like a very dear child whom you are angry with and at the same time feel pained for. Such is the irony of life that even the world's greatest superstar can be reduced to such helplessness. After all they as we are ultimately all human, be it Pele, Maradona or Messi and human beings are not perfect.

by Winter is Coming Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:36 pm

Maybe theres a reason behind it? Perhaps the coach gives the instruction? I mean have it hard time to believe he's so gutted at the end, but does this as well.

Excuse me for my ignorance, never saw Maradona play, but are people making a myth out of him carrying Argentina? from what I recall 1978-1990 they went to 3 WC finals, won it 1978 (without him, all tho home soil), won it in 1986 with Diego, I heard he was injured didn't score a single goal, but they still got to the final of 1990 and I believe got 2 red cards and eventually PK lost them that game, it shows more tactics/team work then Diego himself, not to take anything away from him, even won the Copa in 1991 without him.

If this is the case, we must also look at the way the current Argentina is set up other then defence they seem disorganized, tactics/subs haven't helped even if Diego got by he still had players putting the ball in the back when he set them up, which isn't the case for Messi. I mean in the final he didn't score yet 3 other players did. In the 2nd half this final he created their best chance as said in the article put a ball through, but Lavezzi run after it in offside position which should've been for Higuain and then the last minute set up which messed up and he scored the only PK.

by windkick Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:49 pm

I thought he tried his ass off, but Chile just made sure to always have him crowded and were pretty much roughing him out of the game and making sure he couldn't get going. I don't get people questioning how bad he wanted it, that's just ludicrous to me
As the game went on and the pressure went up, it seemed to me Messi was getting more and more anxious and frustrated. As I said in another thread, if Messi is commanding so much attention then what about Pastore, Kun, Di Maria, Lavezzi, and Higuain who also played and were in 1 on 1's allot and Messi wasn't? The expectation Messi would rise though the amount of pressure Chile would slam on him from every which direction and people forget it's a team sport. It's easy to say, hey this is Messi's team and he should of done more, but at the same time it looked like the entire attack and midfield couldn't step up due to a team with superior pressure and ultimately that was the difference.

I mean I'm still in shock, Messi could of had back to back Copa America and World Cup titles now. I honestly hope he has it in him to bounce back from this

by messixaviesta Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:32 pm

Winter is Coming wrote:
Excuse me for my ignorance, never saw Maradona play, but are people making a myth out of him carrying Argentina? from what I recall 1978-1990 they went to 3 WC finals, won it 1978 (without him, all tho home soil), won it in 1986 with Diego, I heard he was injured didn't score a single goal, but they still got to the final of 1990 and I believe got 2 red cards and eventually PK lost them that game, it shows more tactics/team work then Diego himself, not to take anything away from him, even won the Copa in 1991 without him.

WC 1978 - Considered one of if not the most controversial world cup ever. It felt more like a political manipulation than a team's victory. Too many refereeing controversies but that you can say is almost always a part of football. What isn't is the infamy of the 6-0 victory over Peru, one of the most shameful moments in world cup history. The greatest player of those days, Johann Cruyff, refused to participate because he was against the world cup being held in a country with an inhuman dictatorship. Only he could have given up a world cup on such principles. Without him Holland reached the final and took it to extra time. If he was there ...? Most world cup experts would tell you Argentina wouldn't have won this world cup had it been held anywhere else in the world.

WC 1986 - In spite of the 'Hand Of God' an extremely convincing and well deserved victory, albeit more from one man than from a team.

WC 1990 - A very undeserving run to the final and an unfortunate but deserving loss in the final. Only three things took Argentina that far - luck, penalty heroics of Segio Goycochea and the presence of Diego Maradona (exceptional assist in the second round against Brazil but even more than that just his being there inspired belief and lifted others)

As for the Copas, not just 1991 but also 1993, they were won without Maradona and won well. I have something more to say in that regard in another post.

by futbol Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:52 pm

They don't finish because Messi doesn't create the same quality service as Maradona for Argentina.

Spot the difference:

This is how Lavezzi receives the ball:

'The Messiah' - Lionel Messi V.2 - Page 26 Nopmam2v

'The Messiah' - Lionel Messi V.2 - Page 26 Nopmam2v

This is how Caniggia receives the ball:

'The Messiah' - Lionel Messi V.2 - Page 26 5xy2jpmj

Lavezzi has an angle. With a defender coming across to close him down from the right and the goalkeeper guarding his near post he doesn't have a great chance to score from there unless he does a one-touch prime Henry far post curler in which case the finishing would be of higher quality than the service he got. Caniggia on the other hand has a free path from a central position and Maradona has made sure Caniggia doesn't get closed down so quickly. Do you know how he made that? Maradona actually mixes up his game and cuts to the right at 0:05. That's all it takes really. He goes to the right, the defenders follow him and then he releases the ball to the left with his weaker foot in the very last moment after sucking all defenders in. Messi? Messi just continues to do his usual straight to the left diagonal dribble where everyone knows where the ball is going to end up and releases the ball a lot earlier. If he wanted to do what Maradona did, Messi would have also dribbled the #5 around 0:25 by cutting to the right and released the ball afterwards which would have created more space. The difference between an okay scoring chance and a great 1 on 1 chance.

Here is another example at 0:40 how Maradona beats defenders by cutting to his right and taking everyone by surprise. If that's Messi he will try to play an over the top ball to the left flank at 0:40.

Messi has actually mixed up his game a lot more this season. He also navigates to the right, the Boateng goal is probably the best example of it. Most of the time he's still very much predictable though with his dribbles and passes to the left flank. It becomes more noticeable outside the Barca machinery.

You look at this video and I already know at 2:12 what he wants to do 6 seconds later at 2:18. Play a ball to the left flank. Laughing

Maradona was more of a freestyler. Messi is more of a machine who functions best in a well drilled system. Wonder when he will finally figure out that the training ground outlet pass to the left doesn't result in anything of substance without Neymar and comes up with something else.

by ahmad25 Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:00 pm

At fussball
Tbh it all was childish comparison. Firstly canigga was marked and maradona had no chance to pass it earlier. Second if you are on 4 vs 3 the best option is to pass. Maradona's play was on 2 vs 5 he had no open players around to pass it earlier. Messi had 4 players around and 3 of them were open and waiting for the ball.dribbling more would ve selfish and childish.in maradona play dribbling was the only option.
Third you chose one of maradona magic play to compare it with not so great play from messi.there are ton of great messi plays you can rewatch again

Or

Or similar to what you posted about maradona

About diagonal passes.no its not because its neymar there.he did those passes to alba abidal villa henry to everybody who played there. And not just diagonal passes he has great brain and can do those through balls in any direction

by windkick Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:17 pm

Now we are saying Messi isn't a good enough passer? First it was he isn't motivated enough, or doesn't care enough, not it's his passing that's the issue?

Good lord.

by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:30 pm

messixaviesta wrote:So my question is if Maradona hadn't returned would Argentina have had a legit chance of winning the tournament?

Not sure, I was 4 at the time. Wish I could be more helpful.

Fussball you can't be serious, right? Di Maria scored off exactly the same position Lavezzi is in vs Paraguay. He was one on one with the keeper, and Lavezzi botched his chance with a poor pass. Maradona didn't score in any WC final either, or a Copa final, yet Messi is a failure because he failed to do the same? It's honestly a bit ridiculous that the difference between a 'signature tournament' and flopping is Higuain/Palacio/Lavezzi not finishing their chances.

Anyways, Germany were 2nd in 2002, 3rd in 2006, 3rd in 2010, semifinalists in 2012, before they finally won in 2014. Our turn will come, and I hope that Messi has a chance to be a part of that.

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