Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

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Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by Arquitescu on Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:31 pm

Dedé indeed is a great CB, one who Milan typically missed after heavy scouting of his talent. It would be a difficulty to acquire given he just switched clubs last year, raising his expense possibly beyond his intrinsic worth.

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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by El Chelsea Fuerte on Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:32 pm

You know, if you put in a bid you might tempt Luiz to leave Chelsea. He is currently not first choice.

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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by The Franchise on Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:31 pm

@futbol wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:
@futbol wrote:No because it's impossible that someone good enough and not Cup tied will come in in January and adapt fast enough and improve on what we already have until February when the knockout stages of the CL start. Certainly not some unknown 20 year old kid like Umtata, Umtito, Umtikitaka ... whatever.
Exact same logic is why we never signed guys like Varane and now we have fodders.
Meh. Varanes don't grow on trees. Zidane just randomly tries to get everything that is French to Madrid and Varane happened to be a special talent. Pure luck by a club that isn't exactly renowned for their scouting abilities. We can't randomly buy based on potential in the hope of landing another Varane. It fails once ... mhmmkay. It fails twice and we're already in a situation in which we've spent 10s of millions and have 2 players with long contracts with no resale value on our hands which we will loan out to 5 different clubs. Keirrison still got a Barca contract. Laughing

We apparently tried to sign the next best youngstar but the 19 year old with 1 season in Europe under his belt got snapped away from an Arab club for € 35 million. Tito also insisted on T. Silva only all summer. :facepalm:

Dede? Pls, no one here watches Cruzeiro games. Just namedropping highly rated FIFA players. Let's stay serious.

There is no one available in the winter market who will improve us. Or let me phrase it this way: It's not impossible with lots of luck but it's highly improbable. We do need a centerback soon but we can hold on until next summer with Pique, Mascherano, Bartra and Puyol.
The fact you think Varane is a luck/random signing is disturbing to me.

People put in tons of hours scouting and assessing these guys and those people who this job spend days, weeks and months training for this very job.

I think your being a bit too closed minded here to not just the possibility but the high probability of there being players who you dont know yet, who could easily play for us.

Dont talk to me about Keirrison please, the mere fact he never played says something. He wasnt signed purely based on what he can do for us, thats clear.

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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by futbol on Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:24 pm

Real Madrid don't have an eye for young, unknown talents. They just go out and buy the most obvious players. And if they buy young players they buy the most obvious young players for big money like Sergio Ramos back then and Isco and Illarramendi now who were starters for Spain U21. That's why I don't believe that the Varane signing had anything to do with Madrid's "scouting and assessing" but more with Zidane's bias. Varane has played half a season in Ligue 1 before Madrid got him. Did Madrid specifically scout the youth team of Lens? If so then only because Zidane told them to. In short: huge luck. If Zidane had played for Barca in the past we'd be the ones having Varane in the squad now.

There might be players that I don't know yet and who could play for us. But it's unlikely that they are playing first division football. Young talents get hyped up pretty quickly in this modern era of Youtube, OPTA stats, Internet forums, FIFA etc. A 19 year old centerback putting in Thiago Silva-esque performances for Stade Rennes and no one will notice? Pls. There are most likely talents in youth divisions but they won't improve us right now.

Your stance seems to be: "If you scout hard enough you'll eventually find a gem." But then again every club in the world could use a Varane like talent, regardless what they have now. No team is stacked in the centerback area. So where are Bayern's, Manchester United's, Chelsea's, Arsenal's or Juventus' "next Varanes"? Are they as clueless as we are? Or do Varanes simply not grow on trees?

Also:



Can we PLS stop acting like we're in dire need of a centerback? Our problems last season were structural. Not the personnel. And even now the defensive cover of the midfield is a bigger issue. We concede far more long range efforts (Benzema hitting the bar from outside the box, Real Betis hitting the post from a long range effort, Granada hitting the bar from a long range effort ...) than attackers getting behind our backline. Xavi losing his legs at soon 34 is a bigger problem than our backline.

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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by eelir on Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:28 pm

futbol - VV had a lot influence on these stats, especially when compared to last season.
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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by The Franchise on Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:42 pm

First of all, put the stats away. They dont mean much at all. Mascherano is shet, Pique is ranges frombad to ok and Puyol will be lucky to play 20 games at a high level.

Second, I am aware of what Madrid are historically like and have done...and I disgaree. They have no problems scouting domestic talent, they just waste them by not using them...Mata, Negredo and others...foreign talents? Meh, but you cant dismiss Higuain, Marcelo, Ozil and others...these are talented players they signed at young ages.

Saying Varane is lucky is niave to me, as I said, people are doing real work.

How is Zidane saying, yeah look at this guy and then them going to look at him luck? Is it not Zidane's job to point these guys out and the scouts job to go look and judge? This isnt luck at all.

Why are you talking about young talents improving us right now? Do you only sign players based on what they can do right now? Not 6 months down the line, not 12 months....not longer?

And no, thats not my stance. My stance is our current centerbacks are poor and we can do better. And if your not going to sign a great one, then how about the possibility of signing someone who might end up great.

Your naming other teams like they have bad options at the back. Thats crazy.

Man Utd have Smalling and maybe Jones, Bayern have Boateng who is like 24 years old aswell as a German guy who's name escapes me...starts with K...oh, and an injured Badstuber....Juve have Ogbonna, well respected in Serie A..and why cherry pick Arsenal and Chelsea? Why not also put Dortmund, Liverpool, Man City? All of whom have younger defenders they found.

Nobody said its easy, but your claiming its almost impossible..thats lazy or bs in my opinion.

Your talking about structral problems when Mascherano was making constant errors and Pique was being total shite.

Why is it 100% structural and 0% personale? Nah, it was both.
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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by Donuts on Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:01 am

We are talking about our scouts..
we are not going to buy an unknown wonderkid anytime soon especially not in the centerback department.
if we were to buy a new centerback it'd probably be someone well known the problem is availability, as it seems David Luiz is the only one out of favor with his club but others like koscielny, thiago silva, etc etc are out of our reach unless we splash out a completely unnecessary amount of money for them.

we could also wait it out and see what our youth camp brings up, as it stands Bartra Pique and Puyol are good for now, we need to replace Mascherano.

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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by futbol on Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:09 am

@eelir wrote:futbol - VV had a lot influence on these stats, especially when compared to last season.
The next 6 weeks will prove you wrong. Despite being in fine form, Valdes' influence has been overstated. Barca fans act like a win is only a win when the opponent doesn't enter our half and we beat them as convincingly as we've beaten Manchester United in the 2011 CL final with Valdes staying untested all night. Look at the saves Neuer pulled against Dortmund. I swear, if Barca beat Dortmund like that, Barca fans would be moaning that Dortmund missed half their starting lineup, that Valdes had to make world class saves, that Dortmund didn't convert their chances and the last 2 goals came too late after Dortmund pushed forward. Fss. Most emo fans in the world.

Of course Valdes pulls world class saves and some of them rescued us points, particularly at the beginning of the season when we were still running in "Tito mode", but the majority is fairly routine. It's not like we're getting battered with shots or he's finding himself in 1 on 1 situations often. He's making more saves from less difficult angles. Last season we conceded 61 % of the shots from inside the box. This season that has already improved to 53 %.

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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by futbol on Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:56 am

@The Franchise wrote:
Your talking about structral problems when Mascherano was making constant errors and Pique was being total shite.

Why is it 100% structural and 0% personale? Nah, it was both.
One thing goes hand in hand with the other. If the coach makes tactical errors, like playing a suicidal highline + letting both fullbacks venture forward as they wish + no pressing from the front aka "the Tito system", every centerback in the world will get exposed, including prime Maldini and Nesta. Since Tata has joined it's like the entire squad has improved individually. From Valdes to Bartra to Fabregas to Alexis and Pedro. In reality no one has improved (except Bartra's natural development process). It's just a result of using the players properly in a fitting tactical frame. Covering their weaknesses, highlighting their strengths.

You are naming Smalling and Jones for Manchester United but think Pique, Bartra and Mascherano should be upgraded? Man. City played away to Sunderland with Demichelis-Lescott CB pairing. Ogbonna?! Liverpool?! PLS!!! You should disengage from Barcelona for 2 months and follow one of those teams as closely as you do Barcelona now. Only then you will get a proper perspective. I think experienced Barca fans like you who analyze every detail for years have become a bit too sensitive about the smallest details.

Why the insecurities about Bartra? He's been an absolute revelation this season. Played 10 games, 3 goals conceded. Hasn't been involved in any of those. Very good in the air. Very good passing (Hudson was going mental about his diagonal balls against Granada). Quick. Showing immense mental strength to perform as he does despite what happened last season. Insane amount of blocks and tackles. Gets beaten here and there like against Betis in the first half. But big deal for a 22 year old centerback who is just breaking out. And then you name Jones and Smalling? Pls. Bartra was chosen best defender in the Segunda. You don't get that kind of award playing for a defensively inept team like Barca B for nothing. We don't need to splash millions on hyped up prospects like Mangala, Sakho or Zouma when we have Bartra performing as he does. What we need is an experienced player. Not someone who will block Bartra's path. Let's just wait and see how Puyol will do in the next weeks and if he could play that role or not. If not, we can go for someone like Agger in the summer window.

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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by windkick on Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:25 am

@futbol wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:
Your talking about structral problems when Mascherano was making constant errors and Pique was being total shite.

Why is it 100% structural and 0% personale? Nah, it was both.
One thing goes hand in hand with the other. If the coach makes tactical errors, like playing a suicidal highline + letting both fullbacks venture forward as they wish + no pressing from the front aka "the Tito system", every centerback in the world will get exposed, including prime Maldini and Nesta. Since Tata has joined it's like the entire squad has improved individually. From Valdes to Bartra to Fabregas to Alexis and Pedro. In reality no one has improved (except Bartra's natural development process). It's just a result of using the players properly in a fitting tactical frame. Covering their weaknesses, highlighting their strengths.
I highlighted a great point here. I think this can also be attributed to the fact that not since Rijkaard, have we had a experienced manager come in with years of experience. Pep didn't have any experience managing other than the B team in segunda..and lets be honest this guy was a gem and a rarity. But he didn't have allot of experience and that might of attributed to his not so good fourth season and his constant trying to over haul the team every summer and over strategizing (tha *bleep* was that 5 man midfield he ran for a while? Ton of possession all game and we would finish 1-0 and couldn't brake down walls). Tito and then Roura didn't have ANY experiencing managing and they were more so picked because they "understood" Peps way of setting things up. Tata has a ton of experiencing with even has a World Cup worth of experience under his belt. The guy might of took away possession, but he got the entire team playing good and seems to understand rotation and tactics and whats necessary and whats not..and what are weakness and what aren't very well. He out coached the shit out of Carlo Anclotti in his first clasico. I think we should have some faith in Tata, and just as he said in the start of the season, that if Puyol could play by the winter at a top level, then that our squad was complete in his eyes and we didn't need another CB. So far he's proven right. Mind you he said he was gonna evaluate the situation, so for all we know he could feel it's time to buy some one just in case

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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:28 am

Not everyone (Iniesta & Messi have declined, Xavi, Alves, Busquets remained the same) and it's really not a surprise that after having no coach for 6 months most of the squad improves.

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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by windkick on Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:23 am

Messi didn't decline, he's injured.
Iniesta just had the game of his life.
Xavi would of likely not improved as he's obviously 33 and has a ton of miles put in the past 4-5 years.
Alves improved. We were even debating here on the forms selling him the past few years (Was bad Peps last year when Pep was experimenting with the formation and was bad, as was the rest of the team in Tito/Rouras year). Alves is back to being solid after 2 off years (by his standards)
Busquets has been amazing, he did improve not sure what your saying with him

besides, your nit picking and completely missing the point I was stating

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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by Donuts on Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:32 am

I agree with windkick
All have improved except Messi due to injury, and Xavi due to natural decline (aging etc.)

Buscuit is a weird case, he is involved with the team play more then ever, rather then just being an interceptor or fill the hole type of player he moves more into the offensive side, and I expect him to only improve from where he stands.

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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by The Franchise on Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:04 pm

@Donuts wrote:We are talking about our scouts..
we are not going to buy an unknown wonderkid anytime soon especially not in the centerback department.
if we were to buy a new centerback it'd probably be someone well known the problem is availability, as it seems David Luiz is the only one out of favor with his club but others like koscielny, thiago silva, etc etc are out of our reach unless we splash out a completely unnecessary amount of money for them.

we could also wait it out and see what our youth camp brings up, as it stands Bartra Pique and Puyol are good for now, we need to replace Mascherano.
The question is regarding what we should do, not what we are going to do.
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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by The Franchise on Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:15 pm

@futbol wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:
Your talking about structral problems when Mascherano was making constant errors and Pique was being total shite.

Why is it 100% structural and 0% personale? Nah, it was both.
One thing goes hand in hand with the other. If the coach makes tactical errors, like playing a suicidal highline + letting both fullbacks venture forward as they wish + no pressing from the front aka "the Tito system", every centerback in the world will get exposed, including prime Maldini and Nesta. Since Tata has joined it's like the entire squad has improved individually. From Valdes to Bartra to Fabregas to Alexis and Pedro. In reality no one has improved (except Bartra's natural development process). It's just a result of using the players properly in a fitting tactical frame. Covering their weaknesses, highlighting their strengths.

You are naming Smalling and Jones for Manchester United but think Pique, Bartra and Mascherano should be upgraded? Man. City played away to Sunderland with Demichelis-Lescott CB pairing. Ogbonna?! Liverpool?! PLS!!! You should disengage from Barcelona for 2 months and follow one of those teams as closely as you do Barcelona now. Only then you will get a proper perspective. I think experienced Barca fans like you who analyze every detail for years have become a bit too sensitive about the smallest details.

Why the insecurities about Bartra? He's been an absolute revelation this season. Played 10 games, 3 goals conceded. Hasn't been involved in any of those. Very good in the air. Very good passing (Hudson was going mental about his diagonal balls against Granada). Quick. Showing immense mental strength to perform as he does despite what happened last season. Insane amount of blocks and tackles. Gets beaten here and there like against Betis in the first half. But big deal for a 22 year old centerback who is just breaking out. And then you name Jones and Smalling? Pls. Bartra was chosen best defender in the Segunda. You don't get that kind of award playing for a defensively inept team like Barca B for nothing. We don't need to splash millions on hyped up prospects like Mangala, Sakho or Zouma when we have Bartra performing as he does. What we need is an experienced player. Not someone who will block Bartra's path. Let's just wait and see how Puyol will do in the next weeks and if he could play that role or not. If not, we can go for someone like Agger in the summer window.
Yeah, no it doesnt.

Your making some incredible assumption that because we let in less goals, its mostly because of the centerbacks improved performance. Thats crazy and untrue.

Lets stick to this season, instead of making comparisions to other years for a start.

And based on this season, Mascherano still isnt good enough, Pique is still meh and Puyol wont play many games. Only the niave believe thats not a problem.

And can you please stop the assumptions that I dont watch other teams. Lazy argument.

Man Utd have Jones and Smalling. They were named as examples of them signing young defenders based on talent and scouting alone. This at a time they already had Evans, Rio and Vidic.

Same for Ogbonna, same for the other clubs...they have the foresight to sign young defensive talent when they need to, we clearly do not.

Smallest details? We will see "smallest details" when we have to face other elite teams and we get exposed again because we have fake defenders out there.

I know you aint telling me about Bartra? I was one of the first on here saying he should get a ton more chances even last year. He is a very good talent and he is doing well, not to my surprise at all. However, he only proves my point.

He is a young kid who came from Segunda and is now playing at a level above most of our centerbacks. And you think there arent others out there who cant do the same? You better believe that there is. Bartra was within our club and he did it, look how many other clubs are in this world...none of them good enough to come and improve us? Niave.

And your dismissing Smalling? Maybe its you who isnt watching. He is a better talent than Bartra.

Your talking about "hyped up players" like a child to be honest, but how much do you watch them to make a judgement? Anyone who watched someone like Mangala can only be impressed at this stage.

Wait and see what Puyol will do Laughing Is that a joke? Relying on chronically injury prone players who even if he returns, makes it 2 good defenders.

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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by The Franchise on Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:21 pm

And finally, are we really out here praising the players from improving on the 2nd half of last season (because you cant claim the same arguement for the 1st half)?

How is that impressive? They werent even functional.

None of this is relevant to Barca signing a centerback either.

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Re: Do we need to sign a CB this winter?

Post by Hapless_Hans on Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:43 pm

@futbol wrote:Real Madrid don't have an eye for young, unknown talents. They just go out and buy the most obvious players. And if they buy young players they buy the most obvious young players for big money like Sergio Ramos back then and Isco and Illarramendi now who were starters for Spain U21. That's why I don't believe that the Varane signing had anything to do with Madrid's "scouting and assessing" but more with Zidane's bias. Varane has played half a season in Ligue 1 before Madrid got him. Did Madrid specifically scout the youth team of Lens? If so then only because Zidane told them to. In short: huge luck. If Zidane had played for Barca in the past we'd be the ones having Varane in the squad now.
[..]
You are aware of the nonsense you're writing? Or do you seriously think that's any kind of meaningful argumentation?

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