Do we play better without Jack?

srigooner wrote:

Artilleristen wrote:
A lot of it is this stupid formation that Wenger wants to use know, but I have note been impressed with Jack's play this year at all, and I believe that he isn't good enough for Arsenal right know.

With a possible exception of Alexis, who is good enough this year?

Its a pleasure watching ALexis, he brought his winning mentality with him while the rest of Arsenal players just like Wenger are lost.

srigooner wrote:I am beginning to feel sorry for Jack now. The amount of stick that guy gets is hilarious now.

Oh Özil is injured. We can't pick on him. Ok, let's blame Wilshere instead!

Last season it was Giroud and Arteta, this year its Ozil and Jack. About time someone else gets it

srigooner wrote:You know what else is common? You were watching all those games! Maybe that is the cause-effect relationship and we'll start performing awesomely if you don't watch!



That logic even supersedes the best Daily Mail anti-Arsenal articles.

How a fan of this team can just ignore what Raptorgunner posted below and then borderline mock him is just weird.  Are you a Wilshere fan or an Arsenal fan?

I will add today's results to his post and do you have any idea what Arsenal's plus/minus in goal differential is with Wilshere on the field and without?  

With you supposedly being a fan of the TEAM and not one individual player I would think the numbers would blow your hair back instead of dismissing or making  reference that it's just some attack on Wilshere especially with the issues your squad has scoring goals.

Raptorgunner's Numbers

Arsenal v crystal palace ht 1:1
wilshere sub off 69" >> 2:1 90" ramsey

Arsenal v everton ht 0:2
wilshere sub off 74" >> 1:2 83" ramsey 2:2 90" giroud

Arsenalv dortmund ht 0:1
wilshere play 90 minutes >> 0:2 ft

Arsenal v aston villa ht 3:0
wilshere is on the BENCH!!!!

Arsenal v tottenham hotspur 56" 0:1
wilshere sub off 62" >> 1:1 74" ox

Arsenal v galatasary ht 3:0
wilshere is on the BENCH!!!!

Arsenal v chelsea ht 0:1
78" 0:2 >>> wilshere still on the pitch

Arsenal v hull 46" 1:2
wilshere sub off 68" >>> 2:2 90" welbeck

Arsenal v anderlecht 71" 0:1
wilshere sub off 82" >>> 1:1 89" gibbs 2:1 91" podolski

Arsenal vs Sunderland- 2-0
Wilshere on the bench

When you add up the games Raptor didn't put in his post against Besiktas (x2), Leicester, Southampton and Man City you get STUNNING results.

Arsenal are -9 in goal differential with Wilshere on the pitch this season.

Without Wilshere on the pitch Arsenal's goal differential is +15

Not only that, they almost never get scored upon when he is out of the game.

I mean if that doesn't shock you, I don't know what will.

Arsenal have there issues and it's not all down to one player but basically every manager and every front office use numbers like this to evaluate team selection, Selling and buying players etc.

Being a basketball fan and part time coach this is a massive statistic in the sport.  You can have a guy on your team who scores 20 points a night but if there -10 when he's on the court as opposed to off it is he really very valuable?

At the end of the day you want your TEAM functioning at a high level and hopefully this will finally show some of you the massive gap with and without Wilshere in the game.

Of course numbers trend both ways and you would have to believe his Goal Differential numbers will start going into the positive but this is every game they have played this year, unless Raptor or myself are missing something????

What do you know it a thread slating Wilshere and dnmac appears out of nowhere

PISS OFF

julias wrote:What do you know it a thread slating Wilshere and dnmac appears out of nowhere

PISS OFF

As much as I dont like to admit but Raptor and Dnmax have valid point there, that not to blame Jack but Wenger failure to accomodate all of his midfield talent.

For me, til Ozil back, Arteta and Santi should have their places locked down. They might play badly parts of game but overall they're reliable and does best in their roles. The remaining position will be tossed up among Flamini, Jack & Ramsey. I prefer the later two but Wenger seems to have different idea, Flamini played way too much for his squad player role.

Bit of respect guys. As long as he isn't trolling he is allowed to share his opinion.

Fine RG, here is a less one sided look at the midfied players, all stats on per90 basis. Now discuss how Jack is a good or bad player, or how Jack is solely responsible for all the eye-sore performances this season.



My bone of contention with Rapz was making a faulty cause-effect analysis. We all know statistics can be diced any which way to paint images which are completely far away from reality. Rapz didn't respond to my comment, because I am sure he got my point. If some chap turns up with a derisory, divisive comment in the Arsenal section questioning a topic with seemingly no knowledge or care for previous discussions or context, HOW does it merit a respectful response?

Also, the above pack of stats ignore the roles in the line up and the positions played in. Would be nice if that wasn't ignore in any subsequent discussion(s).

Jack needs to simplify his game too many times he tries to drive forward or making a poor final pass. Yes there have been few magical moments but Wenger has to fix this. I think Jack has been one of better players this season but he still needs to improve and find his true position at Arsenal.
Jack and Ramsey cant play together and we have to scarifies one of them, and Wenger must drop the 4-1-41 formation.

I have com to realize one thing…….most Arsenal fans are not Honest to themselves…we love our players too much.

I'd like to see that stat but taking into account Wilshere and Ramsey as a duo, regarding when they're on the pitch together.

Because I reckon the figures are similar, it doesn't read for good reading no. But if I remember correctly Bale went more than a year being on the losing team for Spurs and we all saw how that turned out.

I bet those figures are nowhere near the same when compared with similar stats from last year, when Wenger wasn't forcing people to play out of position or forcing Ramsey/Wilshere in the same team.

Imo its's either Wilsh or Ramsey pick 1 Wenger just 1

I am not saying Wilshere has been fantastic this season, imo he's been quite good. There are definitely things in his game that he needs to cut out and refine but those stats do not tell the story of his season.

In fact those stats would suggest that we have played well this season despite Wilshere, when in fact we all know we have been rubbish from minute 1 regardless of whether Wilshere has played or not.

Dncrap tried to add Sunderland into that list when any clown who watched the game would have seen Sunderland basically hand us two goals.

srigooner wrote:Also, the above pack of stats ignore the roles in the line up and the positions played in. Would be nice if that wasn't ignore in any subsequent discussion(s).

Arsenal have been switching and miss-matching lineups all year around due to injury or Wenger tinkering.  

It's the same for every player.  In fact the one thing I see most Arsenal fans agree on is that they wish they would have a "trusted 11" or continuity in midfield but that hasn't been the case for any of the players.

The stats you provide show no real impact on how Jack's effect on the team not to mention 4/5 players in your stats have a O for defensive errors, I hope you caught that.

And the reason is obvious which is why the goal differential stat doesn't lie.  You can measure blocks, interceptions, fouls, clearances etc because they are finite, but the only way you can measure how Arsenal functions as a team is through goal differential.  

I watched the Dortmond game and IMO Arsenal have similar talent to Dortmond but I wouldn't blame Arsenal's defense in that game, there midfield was ripped clean open and dominated.  Now your stats would claim there midfield made no defensive errors and would only compile there quantifiable or positive stats on defense.

There is one stat you provided which is very telling and supports my stats.  It gives Jack a "Defensive score" (who knows what that even means) of -4.41 the next closest midfielder is +0.22 and Flamini as your best defender in Midfield (which I know most Arsenal fans would laugh at is tops at 9.36 a skew of over 13 "points").

This stat must be playing on the goal differential as Jack is so far behind every other midfielder in that category it's insane especially when it says he has made 0 defensive errors.

Now if I wanted to prove my point further I could show you goals per minute with Jack in the game and with him out of the game.  That stat would be shocking.

No player on a team like Arsenal with the competition they have played should have a goal differential of -9 and +15 especially when they drew to City and took only a 2-0 defeat to Chelsea and have not been blown out of a game to make a massive outlying stat.

In fact I believe they have only lost 2 games.  This makes the goal differential insane.

Again, I don't think I have to explain it any further, and I did say it's never just on one player but my contention with Wilshere is he doesn't have a position.  And it's obvious with the numbers when he's in the game players are forced to play in positions there not very comfortable in and when he goes out of the game Arsenal operate like one of the most efficient machines in Europe.

julias wrote:I'd like to see that stat but taking into account Wilshere and Ramsey as a duo, regarding when they're on the pitch together.

Because I reckon the figures are similar, it doesn't read for good reading no. But if I remember correctly Bale went more than a year being on the losing team for Spurs and we all saw how that turned out.

I bet those figures are nowhere near the same when compared with similar stats from last year, when Wenger wasn't forcing people to play out of position or forcing Ramsey/Wilshere in the same team.

Imo its's either Wilsh or Ramsey pick 1 Wenger just 1

I am not saying Wilshere has been fantastic this season, imo he's been quite good. There are definitely things in his game that he needs to cut out and refine but those stats do not tell the story of his season.

In fact those stats would suggest that we have played well this season despite Wilshere, when in fact we all know we have been rubbish from minute 1 regardless of whether Wilshere has played or not.

Dncrap tried to add Sunderland into that list when any clown who watched the game would have seen Sunderland basically hand us two goals.

Again, you are making things up.  At least be truthful if you want to have a serious discussion.

It's not true that Arsenal are just crap with or without Wilshere in the game.  

There defense is immense when he doesn't play and they score goals like crazy.  I mean do you understand +15 and -9?  Have you taken basic math?

It's not just the goal scoring that's the issue it's the leaking goals like crazy to good and bad teams when Wilshere plays.  Even if you consider your 2 goals against Sunderland as "being handed to you" you are not taking into consideration the clean sheet.

Again, you guys operate as basically one of the best defensive teams in Europe when he doesn't play.  Ignore that if you want but again it is sticking your head in the sand.

Blah blah blah have you even watched Arsenal this season?

We have played two good games excluding the charity shield ask any Arsenal supporter who actually watch Arsenal.

If you think football is as simple take Wilshere out maintain +15 keep Wilshere in maintain -9 you're crazy.

Since when did life or football ever work like that.

I didn't realise Wilshere scores an own goal for every goal the opposition score every time he is on the pitch and he stands on the oppo goal line blocking every Arsenal goal bound effort until Wenger takes him off

Because that is what your stat is saying

Your stat hasn't even included every game he has played....
Your stat acknowledges the fact we score with Wilshere on the pitch but just highlights that we also happen to score more frequently with him off the pitch.....

It is a pick and choose stat, back it up with video evidence of Wilshere causing oppo goals and hindering the creation of our chances and I might listen to this dross

Back it up with evidence that doesn't show the oppo getting tired and resorting to sitting on the edge of their box till they concede last minute goals as has been the pattern for years (YEARS) for teams who play against us

Or the fact we have an ever changing back line with lbs playing CB, Kos carrying an injury until he couldn't take it anymore and Per + Oezil being rushed back from holiday's, losing our RB in the summer and then his replacement but yes Wilshere is the reason we are playing badly......

dnmac called it first people

Arsene Wenger we now know the formula to win the league, the stat says Wilshere is causing every goal that is scored when he's on the pitch all you have to do is leave him out for the rest of the season and we will win the league and automatically start scoring lot's of goals  

This football thing is so simple dnmac please apply to take over from Wenger

Just one remark: Flamini has played as the DM in a 4-1-4-1 while Wilshere has played further forward.

Thanks for quoting my post highlighting the need to pay deeper attention to player positions, but conveniently ignoring it in your defense comparison of Wilshere and Flamini.

Further reinstates why it's a waste of time trying to reason with a bias grounded in imagination and bordering on blind hate. Good day to you, sir.

julias wrote:Blah blah blah have you even watched Arsenal this season?

We have played two good games excluding the charity shield ask any Arsenal supporter who actually watch Arsenal.

If you think football is as simple take Wilshere out maintain +15 keep Wilshere in maintain -9 you're crazy.

Since when did life or football ever work like that.

I didn't realise Wilshere scores an own goal for every goal the opposition score every time he is on the pitch and he stands on the oppo goal line blocking every Arsenal goal bound effort until Wenger takes him off

Because that is what your stat is saying

Your stat hasn't even included every game he has played....
Your stat acknowledges the fact we score with Wilshere on the pitch but just highlights that we also happen to score more frequently with him off the pitch.....

It is a pick and choose stat, back it up with video evidence of Wilshere causing oppo goals and hindering the creation of our chances and I might listen to this dross

Back it up with evidence that doesn't show the oppo getting tired and resorting to sitting on the edge of their box till they concede last minute goals as has been the pattern for years (YEARS) for teams who play against us

Or the fact we have an ever changing back line with lbs playing CB, Kos carrying an injury until he couldn't take it anymore and Per + Oezil being rushed back from holiday's, losing our RB in the summer and then his replacement but yes Wilshere is the reason we are playing badly......

dnmac called it first people

Arsene Wenger we now know the formula to win the league, the stat says Wilshere is causing every goal that is scored when he's on the pitch all you have to do is leave him out for the rest of the season and we will win the league and automatically start scoring lot's of goals  

This football thing is so simple dnmac please apply to take over from Wenger

LOL, I guess you guys haven't taken basic math.

The goal differential stat takes into account every single goal scored and goal conceded.  

So yes if Jack leaves the game at 1-1 it's a zero for that game which I believe is the biggest thing you and your friend can't quite comprehend.  

Arsenal's biggest problem this year has not been losing but drawing too many games.  This stat shows one constant that again is not biased against Jack Wilshere it's just a hardcore fact, with Wilshere in the game Arsenal let in too many goals, with Wilshere out of the game Arsenal are a rock on defense and hardly let up any goals at all.

Not only that they turn into a goal scoring machine.

Arsenal have scored 23 goals this year and they have let in 15 goals.

17 of there goals have come when Jack doesn't play.  For people who are bad at math 74% of Arsenal's goals this year have come with Jack on the bench.

When Jack is on the bench Arsenal scores every 25 minutes.
When Jack plays Arsenal score every 152 minutes


Now for the Defensive Statistics- 15 goals against.

13 with Jack in the game
2 with Jack out of the game

With Jack in the game Arsenal let up a goal every 70 minutes
With Jack on the bench Arsenal let up a goal every 219 minutes


If you want video evidence then your quite frankly obtuse.  The numbers are so staggering to ignore them and ask for proof on video just backs up my claim that you're probably not really an Arsenal fan but more of a Jack Wilshere fan.

How any Arsenal fan that cares about there team can just ignore this and say we always play bad this year again is just not true.  When Jack is on the bench Arsenal function as a devastating attacking unit and a fortress on defense.

srigooner wrote:Just one remark: Flamini has played as the DM in a 4-1-4-1 while Wilshere has played further forward.

Thanks for quoting my post highlighting the need to pay deeper attention to player positions, but conveniently ignoring it in your defense comparison of Wilshere and Flamini.

Further reinstates why it's a waste of time trying to reason with a bias grounded in imagination and bordering on blind hate. Good day to you, sir.

The only comparison I made of Wilshere and Flamini were using the stats you provided.

There your flawed stats not mine. You know the same stats that say out of your 5 midfield players 4 of them have gone the entire season making not 1 defensive error.

LOL, and you call me biased. Your stats suck, they don't even make any sense.

from what I have seen from this season, Jack slows down the midfield by over holding on to the ball and in most cases losing it to the opponents. Jack is talented, but hasn't figured out his game yet, very similar to Ramsey. When he is on his day, you see how good he can be. I believe this has to do with Wenger not knowing how to use him.

Jack plays in the same position as Ozil and instead of making this simple he wants to do everything, striker, AM and holding midfielder. Jack goes down too often and jumping into unnecessary tackles.

Jack will come good but only if Wenger can find a way to use him properly. I believe whats good for Jack is to come off the bench when Ozil comes back there is no way we can start Ozil, Jack and Ramsey in the same line up.

When Jack plays well, other players don’t and the main question should be Wilshere’s best position is?

Yes the near chartered accountant hasn't taken basic math"S" because he paid no attention to your stupid goal differential LOL

No video evidence provided but you want me to listen to pure numbers regarding a SPORT LOOL

I am sorry I didn't realise football was played on paper with a calculator handy

Questioning whether I am an Arsenal fan LOL, I was in the stands supporting Arsenal before Jack Wilshere had even turned 8 thanks

That comment is just as bad as they cliched "you haven't watched player X because you don't agree with my opinion" comment

Last time I bother debating with you because you don't understand the idea of putting an argument forward....

I DON'T HAVE TO TAKE YOUR OPINION AS MY OWN

When the heck are you going to finally understand that, every debate you have is ridiculous.

If someone doesn't accept your thought process they are either dumb or a "Wilshere fan"

Your stats are just stats a viewpoint with a subjective meaning attached towards them, I am not here stating that the stats are untrue but I am not accepting your dumb idea of take Wilshere out and all of a sudden Arsenal's defence becomes watertight and attack will be devastating.

The most hilarious thing I have heard this month

Get the heck outta here, your Oezil turned Wilshere thread is still open ffs

Dnmac4 wrote:

The only comparison I made of Wilshere and Flamini were using the stats you provided.

There your flawed stats not mine.  You know the same stats that say out of your 5 midfield players 4 of them have gone the entire season making not 1 defensive error.

LOL, and you call me biased.  Your stats suck, they don't even make any sense.

Yes, because all 5 players play in defensive midfield in every match. The stats I put there are not 'my stats', it's Sqwaka comparison for those 5 'midfielders' without putting emphasis on who played where - which is more comprehensive and credible than attributing Goal Diffeerence of a team of 11 players to the individual contribution of 1 individual.

I have only one question: Have you even seen Arsenal play this season? If you have, you will know why everyone here has been discussing the formation and roles played by midfield players. But go on. Trust your very scientific and normatively flawless analysis of how one player is entirely responsible for goals scored and conceded.

Oh and I am pursuing a doctoral degree in economics from one of the best research establishments in continental Europe. Thank you for giving me your noble insights on the role and application of statistical analysis and math.

I have nothing more to say on this topic.

The bad part of this is Dnmac4 is actually kind of right and it has been something we have been discussing all year. Not because of the over nefarious "Wilshere is a horrible player" that some here IMHO seem to be reading into it. More because when Wilshere is in we have been playing this new 4-1-4-1 formation and it is horrible. We can not score and our defense is suspect. When Wilshere has not been in we move back to something that resembles the 4-2-3-1 that we played last year and we look much better. Not really sure why it is that Wenger has decided that if Wilshere is in we need to change the formation. I also have no idea why Wenger is trying to force Jack in to a 10. We have someone that was recognized as one of the best 10s in the world until he arrived in the new 4-1-4-1 then was moved to the wing. Along with others that have years of being much more consistent in a creative role than Jack.

srigooner wrote:

Dnmac4 wrote:

The only comparison I made of Wilshere and Flamini were using the stats you provided.

There your flawed stats not mine.  You know the same stats that say out of your 5 midfield players 4 of them have gone the entire season making not 1 defensive error.

LOL, and you call me biased.  Your stats suck, they don't even make any sense.

Yes, because all 5 players play in defensive midfield in every match. The stats I put there are not 'my stats', it's Sqwaka comparison for those 5 'midfielders' without putting emphasis on who played where - which is more comprehensive and credible than attributing Goal Diffeerence of a team of 11 players to the individual contribution of 1 individual.

I have only one question: Have you even seen Arsenal play this season? If you have, you will know why everyone here has been discussing the formation and roles played by midfield players. But go on. Trust your very scientific and normatively flawless analysis of how one player is entirely responsible for goals scored and conceded.

Oh and I am pursuing a doctoral degree in economics from one of the best research establishments in continental Europe. Thank you for giving me your noble insights on the role and application of statistical analysis and math.

I have nothing more to say on this topic.

Yes I have watched a bunch of the Arsenal games this year as here in the states they show every single one of them.

Every game I watched (and I have been posting about this not just this year but for a couple years now) they play better when he doesn't play.  I see them going from being absolutely terrible on offense to bagging goals like fun to save points.

I have watched them save there season so far on like 5-6 different occasions when Jack leaves the game with them in an unenviable position to a lot of bad teams.

Not only that they generally make up for like 70 minutes of bad play in like 20 minutes time.

Also, you obviously just don't get it.  I have said numerous time Jack is not the one who is 100% responsible for shipping the goals.  And your stats again are trying to prove that out with clearances and tackles and passing stats etc etc.  Saying he's made 0 defensive errors.

If Jack is playing CM and his midfield is getting owned through the middle sure the stats may say the goal was a defenders "fault" but it's really the midfield not doing there job.

I have said when he is in the game Arsenal function terribly as a unit and seem snap back into form instantly when he leaves the game.  They are almost a picture of a offensive /defensive efficient machine.  Scoring 3 1/2 goals a game and letting up a goal every 1 1/2 games.  That is EPL winning form right there.

Again you seem to take this as some kind of personal attack on Jack when again goal differential is the one stat that measures how a unit plays with a certain individual in the unit and out of it.  Period.  

If the correlation is extremely negative then you better believe in this day and age your coach is being fed those numbers by his staff.

Do I think Jack is a great player no, I think he's highly overrated and doesn't have a position and if he weren't English he'd have been shipped out a long time ago as you guys have done it to better players.  So there you go, that has been my opinion for ages.  I'm not a hater, I honestly believe that to be true.  

I also think the talent on your team is not playing close to there potential, I think Arsenal have a very good team if played correctly so this is not a hate Arsenal thread.

I don't believe I'm biased in the least bit and the numbers reflect that.

julias wrote:Yes the near chartered accountant hasn't taken basic math"S" because he paid no attention to your stupid goal differential LOL

No video evidence provided but you want me to listen to pure numbers regarding a SPORT LOOL

I am sorry I didn't realise football was played on paper with a calculator handy

Questioning whether I am an Arsenal fan LOL, I was in the stands supporting Arsenal before Jack Wilshere had  even turned 8 thanks

That comment is just as bad as they cliched "you haven't watched player X because you don't agree with my opinion" comment

Last time I bother debating with you because you don't understand the idea of putting an argument forward....

I DON'T HAVE TO TAKE YOUR OPINION AS MY OWN

When the heck are you going to finally understand that, every debate you have is ridiculous.

If someone doesn't accept your thought process they are either dumb or a "Wilshere fan"

Your stats are just stats a viewpoint with a subjective meaning attached towards them, I am not here stating that the stats are untrue but I am not accepting your dumb idea of take Wilshere out and all of a sudden Arsenal's defence becomes watertight and attack will be devastating.

The most hilarious thing I have heard this month

Get the heck outta here, your Oezil turned Wilshere thread is still open ffs

"Your stats are just stats a viewpoint with a subjective meaning attached towards them, I am not here stating that the stats are untrue but I am not accepting your dumb idea of take Wilshere out and all of a sudden Arsenal's defence becomes watertight and attack will be devastating."

Actually my stats are not a viewpoint nor are they "Subjective".  There is no opinion attached to them what so ever.  They are the truth.

I can see past any attachment to Jack Wilshere where let's be honest a lot of Arsenal fans have a ton of egg on there face over the claims they have made about him over the years.

And actually, yes you are basically saying what the stats prove out is "Dumb" and that when Wilshere is out of the game Arsenal don't play better.  In fact you just said that.

When Arsenal take Wilshere out there defense does become watertight and there attack is devastating.  There is no room for any other opinion, unless of course this whole conversation is over your head and you want to just bang your head against a wall and tell us water isn't wet.

And the reason I don't need to show you any video evidence is you claim to watch all the games, so you have seen it.  You saw Everton destroy your midfield, you saw Dortmond do the same this.  You have seen them losing in games they have no business losing in and then them come back when he leaves the field.  If you watch the games there is no need to show clips or highlights.

If you want to single out a defender or your keeper for being over matched after your midfield didn't do it's job then go right ahead.  It's wrong and it's what's wrong with your team as Wenger continues to ignore how his team plays with certain players in the game and keeps shoving them in the wrong positions.

So keep your opinion and if Wenger keeps his he will waste all the money and players he bought and take a team who actually have a very good team with very good players to the Europa league in the worst EPL I have seen in the last 10 years.  Good luck with that.

6unner wrote:The bad part of this is Dnmac4 is actually kind of right and it has been something we have been discussing all year. Not because of the over nefarious "Wilshere is a horrible player" that some here IMHO seem to be reading into it. More because when Wilshere is in we have been playing this new 4-1-4-1 formation and it is horrible. We can not score and our defense is suspect. When Wilshere has not been in we move back to something that resembles the 4-2-3-1 that we played last year and we look much better. Not really sure why it is that Wenger has decided that if Wilshere is in we need to change the formation. I also have no idea why Wenger is trying to force Jack in to a 10. We have someone that was recognized as one of the best 10s in the world until he arrived in the new 4-1-4-1 then was moved to the wing. Along with others that have years of being much more consistent in a creative role than Jack.

I agree on the formation switch it is annoying but I get the feeling Wenger does it because he wants to force Wilshere and Ramsey into the same team which I just don't understand.

The ironic thing is I doubt see either Jack or Aaron as no10s which makes it even more irritating that Oezil is shifted outwide.

Imo it should be one of the two fighting for the 2 in a 4231 not shoved together in that strange 4141.

julias wrote:

6unner wrote:The bad part of this is Dnmac4 is actually kind of right and it has been something we have been discussing all year. Not because of the over nefarious "Wilshere is a horrible player" that some here IMHO seem to be reading into it. More because when Wilshere is in we have been playing this new 4-1-4-1 formation and it is horrible. We can not score and our defense is suspect. When Wilshere has not been in we move back to something that resembles the 4-2-3-1 that we played last year and we look much better. Not really sure why it is that Wenger has decided that if Wilshere is in we need to change the formation. I also have no idea why Wenger is trying to force Jack in to a 10. We have someone that was recognized as one of the best 10s in the world until he arrived in the new 4-1-4-1 then was moved to the wing. Along with others that have years of being much more consistent in a creative role than Jack.

I agree on the formation switch it is annoying but I get the feeling Wenger does it because he wants to force Wilshere and Ramsey into the same team which I just don't understand.

The ironic thing is I doubt see either Jack or Aaron as no10s which makes it even more irritating that Oezil is shifted outwide.

Imo it should be one of the two fighting for the 2 in a 4231 not shoved together in that strange 4141.

If there was a position battle between them Ramsey's class would wipe the floor with Jack, I wish Arsene would loan him out to a good team so he could grow, he has been stagnant since cesc left.