Real Madrid CF 3 - FC Mehcelona 1

sportsczy wrote:I'm not criticizing Xavi.  I'm praising him.  Every player gets old and drops form... i'm just pointing out that he was the most important player for both NT and club.  Both systems have fallen apart since his level has dropped.  It can't be a coincidence.

No, I understood your post and I agree. I just went off on a tangent a bit to highlight the real problem - the upper management of the club. No one has a clear sporting vision. They went from "Xavi can leave if he wishes" to Xavi starting in the Bernabeu within 2 months because he's apparently still the best we've got (or the coach is stupid which too would be on the management, they appointed him).

I have sympathy for Tata now more than ever. The management threw him under the bus and the man didn't want to take it and left. Hope people like free_cat enjoy it, we haven't had less than 50 % possession yet, all is well.

There is a lot to be blamed here.

Upper management? Perhaps.

Enrique? Yes!

Most of the players? Definitely!

Enrique has proved he cant adjust the game when thing go south two times we faced a real opponent.

Most of our "star" players seam to have lost the ability to press completely. I can say this is Enriques fault, but Pep's biography and Enriques comments make me think we should go with fußbal's line up (couple of posts up) for at least next 3-4 games, and start including our "stars" again based on the merit they show on the training ground.

Fußball wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

Fußball wrote:


Yes, clearly. Bayern, Brazil, Netherlands, Real Madrid, 6 consecutive games against Atletico Madrid with 0 wins. What do these games all have in common? The same core players. What do they not have in common? The coach, there have been 4 different ones. LOL

But wasnt Enrique supposed to be different?The drill sergeant who was going to fix our positioning and pressing.What happened there?
The games you mentioned were different and none of them were this embarrassing.Tata had his faults but he never got schooled like this.
Enrique got the players in he wanted over the summer.If he cant get the result then and puts on a shocker,then yes the blame is entirely on him.

What are you talking about? This game was a carbon copy of last season's Bernabeu Clasico. Barca took the lead, Benzema should have scored 3 or more goals but because he's worse than Higuain/Falcao he only scored 1, Ronaldo scored a penalty, Barca's right side with Alves got raped by Di Maria/Marcelo, Madrid scored 3 goals. It was the same game except Barca didn't get 2 penalties and Messi missed from 5 yards.

Problem is the same as ever. Pique isn't Barca level, Alves gets beaten one on one 9 out of 10 times, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta are too slow and unphysical if they can't dominate games (which they can't do anymore), collective pressing non-existent.

I'd put blame on Lucho for the lack of collective workrate but he clearly, CLEARLY wants his team to do just that, he's talking about nothing else but the players aren't doing it anymore. Haven't done it under Tata, Tito or del Bosque either. Why would they? Pep was just the first one who saw it early, see his autobiagraphy. Iniesta has won 5 European Cups and a World Cup alongside half a dozen league titles and shared the top 3 Ballon d'Or podium for consecutive seasons. Isco is a youth player who wants to earn a starting spot at Madrid and Spain, he has no guaranteed place. That's why he puts in 7 tackles against Liverpool. Who does that at Barca? Mascherano and who else? Neymar already pulling rainbow flicks after 15 minutes of football. Summing up the attitude of the team. And no, it's not just Messi, even though he's the easiest target.

ter Stegen
Montoya Bartra Mathieu Alba
Mascherano
Rakitic Rafinha
Suarez Messi Neymar

The rest doesn't deserve to get on the field unless they die on the pitch and can't breath properly after 60 minutes. It's far from a world class team, it might win f all, but they won't annoy me as much as seeing Alves' and Pique's faces week in week out, Iniesta doing endless pirouettes with 0 end product, Busquets trying to shield the ball and draw a foul and getting his pocket picked and all the other things which I've seen a thousand times in the past 2 years. Bartra, Rakitic, Mascherano, Rafinha. They will all fight. If they don't we can start blaming Enrique.

Fußball wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

Fußball wrote:


Yes, clearly. Bayern, Brazil, Netherlands, Real Madrid, 6 consecutive games against Atletico Madrid with 0 wins. What do these games all have in common? The same core players. What do they not have in common? The coach, there have been 4 different ones. LOL

But wasnt Enrique supposed to be different?The drill sergeant who was going to fix our positioning and pressing.What happened there?
The games you mentioned were different and none of them were this embarrassing.Tata had his faults but he never got schooled like this.
Enrique got the players in he wanted over the summer.If he cant get the result then and puts on a shocker,then yes the blame is entirely on him.

What are you talking about? This game was a carbon copy of last season's Bernabeu Clasico. Barca took the lead, Benzema should have scored 3 or more goals but because he's worse than Higuain/Falcao he only scored 1, Ronaldo scored a penalty, Barca's right side with Alves got raped by Di Maria/Marcelo, Madrid scored 3 goals. It was the same game except Barca didn't get 2 penalties and Messi missed from 5 yards.

Problem is the same as ever. Pique isn't Barca level, Alves gets beaten one on one 9 out of 10 times, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta are too slow and unphysical if they can't dominate games (which they can't do anymore), collective pressing non-existent.

I'd put blame on Lucho for the lack of collective workrate but he clearly, CLEARLY wants his team to do just that, he's talking about nothing else but the players aren't doing it anymore. Haven't done it under Tata, Tito or del Bosque either. Why would they? Pep was just the first one who saw it early, see his autobiagraphy. Iniesta has won 5 European Cups and a World Cup alongside half a dozen league titles and shared the top 3 Ballon d'Or podium for consecutive seasons. Isco is a youth player who wants to earn a starting spot at Madrid and Spain, he has no guaranteed place. That's why he puts in 7 tackles against Liverpool. Who does that at Barca? Mascherano and who else? Neymar already pulling rainbow flicks after 15 minutes of football. Summing up the attitude of the team. And no, it's not just Messi, even though he's the easiest target.

ter Stegen
Montoya Bartra Mathieu Alba
Mascherano
Rakitic Rafinha
Suarez Messi Neymar

The rest doesn't deserve to get on the field unless they die on the pitch and can't breath properly after 60 minutes. It's far from a world class team, it might win f all, but they won't annoy me as much as seeing Alves' and Pique's faces week in week out, Iniesta doing endless pirouettes with 0 end product, Busquets trying to shield the ball and draw a foul and getting his pocket picked and all the other things which I've seen a thousand times in the past 2 years. Bartra, Rakitic, Mascherano, Rafinha. They will all fight. If they don't we can start blaming Enrique.

Once more you keep brushing over his pathetic tactics in this game.
Madrid have one of the most devastating wings in the world.
And yet he lets our fullbacks to the wolves leaving them completely unexposed.
I assume he must have thought something something along the lines of.
"Hmm,So I have got Neymar,Suarez and Messi upfront.What else do i need.I will just ask them to stay upfront and they will do their thing and win."
Why did he decide to leave all 3 players up top with no workrate?If they dont press then atleast ask the wide players to track back and cover the fullback.You cant get away with doing neither.
This isnt 1970.You cant get away with defending with 7 players( 6 and a half as Xavi is not very good) against a team like Madrid.The wings will inevitably get exposed and thats exactly what happened.Our fullbacks got double teamed all night long and they destroyed us down the wings.And yet Fraudrique does nothing.The solution was simple enough.
Answer me why Fraudrique did nothing and please dont go off on tangents again.

sportsczy wrote:My two cents...  your managers don't adjust to game conditions ever.  If you have control, no problem.  But when you don't, you'd want a manager to adjust a few things.  For example, how in the world do you think defending with 7 (or 6 if you rightly say that Xavi can't defend) against a team like Madrid would work?  We scored 3 and it should have been 5 or 6.

I now realize the impact of an in-from Xavi.  Both NT and club have gone down the toilet since his level has dropped.

The Barca managers need to manage and stop arrogantly thinking that it's one way or the highway.  You can adjust within a possession-style system.

Precisely.He did nothing all game to change it.All he had to do was ask the wide forwards to track their fullbacks and not allow our fullbacks to be double teamed.

And your team is hilarious.You talk about effort and commitment and dying and then you include Fraudessi in the lineup and exclude Alves.The irony.
Watch the last 30 min of the match when we were down.There was only player from our side who was trying and that was Alves.
While your precious Fraudessi went into hiding.

Fußball wrote:

sportsczy wrote:I'm not criticizing Xavi.  I'm praising him.  Every player gets old and drops form... i'm just pointing out that he was the most important player for both NT and club.  Both systems have fallen apart since his level has dropped.  It can't be a coincidence.

No, I understood your post and I agree. I just went off on a tangent a bit to highlight the real problem - the upper management of the club. No one has a clear sporting vision. They went from "Xavi can leave if he wishes" to Xavi starting in the Bernabeu within 2 months because he's apparently still the best we've got (or the coach is stupid which too would be on the management, they appointed him).

I have sympathy for Tata now more than ever. The management threw him under the bus and the man didn't want to take it and left. Hope people like free_cat enjoy it, we haven't had less than 50 % possession yet, all is well.

Yeah... but it would be foolish to try and replace Xavi with one player.  All time great players are irreplaceable.  Barca (and Spain) need to adjust their system (not change, adjust) to accentuate the strengths of the team without Xavi.  Barca's midfield is no longer dominant.  So what does the club need to do?  Upgrade the defense since the midfield can't protect it as well.  Also, focus on getting the ball to the forwards and allowing them to attack.  Neymar, Messi and Suarez are at their best when they are attacking the opponent... let them take players on.  Passing it around until there's the perfect opportunity no longer fits this team.  There's ways to play possession football with a measure of directness in the end.

None of this happens easily or immediately btw.  It took Madrid 7 years to fix its midfield after Zidane left.  We fixed our defense which allowed us to win along the way... also had great invidual talent.  But until this past year, our midfield was always weak.  Took 8 years for France NT to adjust too.

alex is right on the money with the wing situation. Fußbal i recall arguing with you about how that whole tactic would work when suarez, neymar and messi all starts.

yesterday was a clean demonstration of that, they don't work like wingers, and leave your fullback exposed to counters. Marcelo going forward had a field day running down that side.

It's funny because few years ago, we had CR wide and Alves was pummelling that side... tactically whatever LE cooked failed miserably. I don't think there was ever a point in the game you were able to stop us. Right after you scored you were already under assault from both wings because mathieu and alves had no support, and we took advantage of the mismatch all game long, with no adjustment from your side.

All and all, pathetic coaching from your side imo, the way LE apologized after the game suggests to me that he knew that situation could occur, but just did a lot of wishful thinking with no adjustment.

Matthieu got the ball 10 times to the front, lost it 9 times. Beast.

I cant read all the posts, I dont have the energy. I read enough to get people's general opinion. I wont argue any of them, bit like beating a dead horse in some cases, ill just say some thoughts and leave it there.

-Leftback is still a huge problem. Alba cant defend, Mathieu can. But Mathieu isnt good enough on the ball to play the position, a ton of lost balls because of poor passes. He must play CB for us from here on out, he is much better there. But Alba cant be trusted vs elites or even very good players (see Lucas for PSG). I dont know what we are going to do about this but if I know anything, I know this will continue to be a problem against the better sides. Still, I would have subbed Alba on at half time, the problem was so clear. But Enrique seems clueless.

-Spent 40m, still starting Pique and Mascherano. What more can I say? Pique's penalty was unlucky for him, but the rest of his performance was not. 3 VERY poor games in a row, 1 of them a big one. Time to hit the bench and think about what your doing. Mascherano did his best, but that third goal was just typical of him at CB.

-Iniesta and Messi didnt play well, Messi invisable and Iniesta looked off the pace. Hard to play well when your two best players are that poor.

-Busquets was doing very well up untill somewhere between 1-1 and 2-1. Some great passes between the lines and some great defending outwide on Isco (to cover up that poor defensive shape, more on that later). But sometime between the 1st and 2nd Madrid goals he fell apart and got worse and worse. I dont worry about him still though, what I saw at the start convinces me. But he has to stop the extra's, especially when its not going out way.

-Starting Suarez was a poor choice. If I was on here before the game, I was have said so then. I dont want to believe my favourite all time Barca player is a coward, especially not after the career he had. I will choose to believe he was naive, but not scared and took the easy option of starting a star name.

-I had great concerns about Suarez signing and already I am feeling "I told you". What kind of defensive shape are we expecting to have? Defending with a back 4 and 3 mid fielders only? Neymar was the only one remotely interested in helping out. However, this was even counter productive because he spent all his energy helping Mathieu (or helping in the middle and Iniesta helping out wide, again just like PSG, a shape which makes zero sense) and when he actually got the ball he was 20m inside his own half and already tired.

I get it, Suarez doesnt have the energy to track back after his 4 month absence....thats not his fault so to speak...but then what are we starting him for?

Everyone, maybe Enrique too, was too busy with "even at his worst, Suarez will give me than Pedro"..what nobody talked about was defending. Pedro would have got back and give us an actual defensive shape.

-Compare our defensive shape to Madrid's, its laughable. James and Isco did very little, but they worked really hard and got back into shape to give 2 banks of 4 and solid cover for Modric and Kroos. One of Cristiano or Benz trailed the play and came back to help overload whichever side the ball was on. A very good and simple plan. What was ours? Suarez and Messi stay high up conserving what little energy they have, Neymar (also our only counter attack threat aside from Messi) killing himself trying to get back to help 3 (un-athletic) midfielders trying to cover the entire width of the pitch.

-Nothing but praise to Madrid and Benzema in particular. He was fantastic for them and even with Cristiano doing nothing and wasting balls, they were by a distance the better side and 3-1 was more than fair. In fact, I was in the end happy Carlo started subbing their offensive players because it easily could of been 4 and 5.

Fußball wrote:Calma. Vermaelen will be back soon.

it's bad news when your long awaited solution in defense is an arsenal flop and a perennial bench warmer .

The Franchise wrote:I cant read all the posts, I dont have the energy. I read enough to get people's general opinion. I wont argue any of them, bit like beating a dead horse in some cases, ill just say some thoughts and leave it there.

-Leftback is still a huge problem. Alba cant defend, Mathieu can. But Mathieu isnt good enough on the ball to play the position, a ton of lost balls because of poor passes. He must play CB for us from here on out, he is much better there. But Alba cant be trusted vs elites or even very good players (see Lucas for PSG). I dont know what we are going to do about this but if I know anything, I know this will continue to be a problem against the better sides. Still, I would have subbed Alba on at half time, the problem was so clear. But Enrique seems clueless.

-Spent 40m, still starting Pique and Mascherano. What more can I say? Pique's penalty was unlucky for him, but the rest of his performance was not. 3 VERY poor games in a row, 1 of them a big one. Time to hit the bench and think about what your doing. Mascherano did his best, but that third goal was just typical of him at CB.

-Iniesta and Messi didnt play well, Messi invisable and Iniesta looked off the pace. Hard to play well when your two best players are that poor.

-Busquets was doing very well up untill somewhere between 1-1 and 2-1. Some great passes between the lines and some great defending outwide on Isco (to cover up that poor defensive shape, more on that later). But sometime between the 1st and 2nd Madrid goals he fell apart and got worse and worse. I dont worry about him still though, what I saw at the start convinces me. But he has to stop the extra's, especially when its not going out way.

-Starting Suarez was a poor choice. If I was on here before the game, I was have said so then. I dont want to believe my favourite all time Barca player is a coward, especially not after the career he had. I will choose to believe he was naive, but not scared and took the easy option of starting a star name.

-I had great concerns about Suarez signing and already I am feeling "I told you". What kind of defensive shape are we expecting to have? Defending with a back 4 and 3 mid fielders only? Neymar was the only one remotely interested in helping out. However, this was even counter productive because he spent all his energy helping Mathieu (or helping in the middle and Iniesta helping out wide, again just like PSG, a shape which makes zero sense) and when he actually got the ball he was 20m inside his own half and already tired.

I get it, Suarez doesnt have the energy to track back after his 4 month absence....thats not his fault so to speak...but then what are we starting him for?

Everyone, maybe Enrique too, was too busy with "even at his worst, Suarez will give me than Pedro"..what nobody talked about was defending. Pedro would have got back and give us an actual defensive shape.

-Compare our defensive shape to Madrid's, its laughable. James and Isco did very little, but they worked really hard and got back into shape to give 2 banks of 4 and solid cover for Modric and Kroos. One of Cristiano or Benz trailed the play and came back to help overload whichever side the ball was on. A very good and simple plan. What was ours? Suarez and Messi stay high up conserving what little energy they have, Neymar (also our only counter attack threat aside from Messi) killing himself trying to get back to help 3 (un-athletic) midfielders trying to cover the entire width of the pitch.

-Nothing but praise to Madrid and Benzema in particular. He was fantastic for them and even with Cristiano doing nothing and wasting balls, they were by a distance the better side and 3-1 was more than fair. In fact, I was in the end happy Carlo started subbing their offensive players because it easily could of been 4 and 5.

Agree except substituting Alba on.Sure he would have been better with the ball but they were killing us out wide by double teaming the fullback.Alba would have been killed.Mathieu did relatively well.

I dont think either are great solutions, with both you lose one thing and you gain another.

I understand, Mathieu can actually defend his position even if he gives the ball away 9 of every 10 passes. Whereas Alba himself gives the ball away almost as much and cant defend the position. So I understand.

But within Enrique's system (which I assume he wont change) I would have preferred Alba for 2 reasons, 1 being that he gives the away a bit less and the more we keep the ball, the less Madrid have it. Second to that, I dont know if you noticed but when Mathieu lost the ball, he gave up on it and got back to his position, even when he had the chance to instantly pressure and win it back. I think his mentality is still that of a Valencia player.

Also something else I noticed, in the second half, Messi especially, but also others..they stopped passing to him when he made runs forward. In the second goal, he ran forward, they didnt pass to him, we quickly ran out of options, Madrid countered and got a corner which they scored from. I think everyone has no problems passing to Alba and they always pass it in front for him to run onto. So a counter is harder to start.

If its me, I play 3 at the back for that game. Mathieu being a left of the back 3, but in Enrique's system I would have preferred Alba...and believe me, you wont find someone who rates Alba less than I do.

Oh and also, people I think mentioned Messi's miss from Suarez great crosss which would have made it 2-0 and therefore a different game. I agree, but there are 2 points to make there.

1. Benzema was very unlucky to hit the bar twice. We cant play the what if game.

2. More importantly, it was a good save from Iker. For me, the biggest mistake Messi made was sometime in the first half we made a great passing move, Xavi ran down the right, he was in on goal for a certain 1 v 1...Messi ignored him to dribble for no reason. That was Messi from last season, this "new" Messi should be playing that pass. I dont know if he missed Xavi, I dont think he did..he was just selfish on that play.

Thats typical Messi tho when he's close to breaking a record. He wanted it at Madrid, but he should've just been himself.

alexjanosik wrote:

but they were killing us out wide by double teaming the fullback.Alba would have been killed.Mathieu did relatively well.

Typical armchair analysis as per usual, analysing theory rather than reality, followed by the typical hipster "sell Messi" conclusion. Fullbacks double-teamed is definitely not what happened. Let me show you what happened.



See the situation? If not put on your glasses, maybe you'll understand better. Suarez and Alves marking Isco. Xavi and Busquets on Marcelo. It's a 4 vs. 2 situation. Job of the coach is done here, he's ensured numerical superiority, more than necessariy even. You want to see what's happening next however? Here we go:



Marcelo walzing past Xavi and Busquets with ease. My grandma could walz past Xavi and Busquets at this point so why wouldn't Marcelo? Think this would have happened with Rakitic and Mascherano instead? PU-LEASE.

Madrid's double woodwork chance? Let's take a look.



Ronaldo vs. Xavi and Alves. 2 vs. 1. Numerical superiority ensured. You want too see what's happening next however?



Little sidestep and off goes the cross which Alves can't stop. Alves couldn't keep my grandad from crossing so why would he Ronaldo? Mascherano gets expectedly beaten in the air by Benzema as per usual.

Fast forward to the situation for Madrid's first goal:



2 vs. 2. All it needs is basic communication. Alves needs to read Marcelo's run (or Iniesta needs to tell him) while Iniesta stays with James. Simplest defensive move ever. What happens however is that both Alves and Iniesta are ball watching the same player when the ball is at James' feet, Marcelo runs free, Alves reacts too late and trails and Pique throws himself to the ground and handballs a simple cross a 6 year old would clear by just staying on his feet.

I could go on and on but what's the point? Same people applying the same mantra over and over again to every bad game. "Sell Messi, sack the coach, Alba can't defend". Luckily for Cesc he got out of here. He would have been scapegoated so hard in this one if he had played. Imagine if he pulled what Iniesta did.

What's happened in this game is simple. The player material on the pitch can't defend. They don't even communicate during the simplest defensive moves. Lucho's biggest mistake was the lineup. But I don't blame him. Xavi's performances in La Liga can really deceive people that he still might have it if rested properly.

Realizing that Busquets is useless when the team isn't totally dominating isn't easy to grasp given his acomplishments. Slow, no muscle, useless in the air. A DM who only excells on the ball can only be a world class DM in a heavily ball dominant possession team which Barca isn't anymore. Peak Xaviesta is gone and won't return.

Iniesta is past it since Martinez ruined him in 12/13. Also not easy to grasp but it is what it is.

Pique's uselessness is well documented so no point dicussing this.

He'll get it right eventually. Too early not to. He'll learn a lot from this. Rather get exposed now than later. People need to stop living in dream land however with statements like "Mascherano can't play DM for Barca". This holds true for peak Xaviesta Barca where he would have slowed down every move and got exposed in tight spaces. But that Barca doesn't exist anymore. We aren't lacking technique in the buildup. We are lacking muscle, grit, speed and balls. Mascherano has it. Busquets doesn't.

still too early to count enrique out though, he showed us that he changes the names when things don't work out, after psg, mathieu was installed in the lb position for example we must see what the next step is
if we regress then so be it but so long as we're changing and trying to find something that fits i'll give it some time.

@Futbol
For both the 2nd and 3rd scene in your (personally) lovely post, yes, proper awareness, communication and closing down were really lacking. But the 1st scene is sort of different. You can say that Mascherano and Rakitic would have done better and I feel they would have but sometimes, genuine skill on the ball can throw a wrench in any tactical set up.

Also, even the most pessimistic of Cules would agree the 1st half was a decent to good one for Barcelona. The 2nd half is where the meltdown really occurred considering your post only had 1st half highlights. Even I, with my bad eyesight saw the lack of assistance for the full backs. Not that excuses Dani Alves' performance.

Referee transitioning back in position quicker than Xavi and Iniesta.

You speak about Cristiano being allowed to cross the ball after a simple side step...but surely someone who plays know its not easy to stop a guy from crossing the ball if he has a speed advantage and the ability to go down the left?

Alves did very little wrong in that defensive play, I dont know how anyone can say different. He was pretty close to Cristiano, I dont think you can ask for more than that. Its not like he was standing 10m off him and just let him cross the ball. He contested the cross and was by a split second late to block it.

The bigger issue in that scene is why is he in that position in the first place and why do Madrid have numbers in the box to start with? If they score from a counter attack, you can understand it, but why do they have numbers? Also, why dont we talk about how Benzema totally destroyed Mascherano in the box there?

Can I also say, its clearly not a 2 v 1 situation, Xavi cannot go help Alves because Marcelo is right there ready to be passed to in a dangerous position.

Why is Xavi even so far over to that side? We are all over the place and its so early in the game. Why dont we have numerical superiority in the box, where the actual danger comes from?

The Franchise wrote:

The bigger issue in that scene is why is he in that position in the first place and why do Madrid have numbers in the box to start with? If they score from a counter attack, you can understand it, but why do they have numbers? Also, why dont we talk about how Benzema totally destroyed Mascherano in the box there?

Because Madrid are one of best attacking teams in the world and on form and playing at home and were chasing the score which made them even more aggressive going forward and the last thing stopping them was a washed up, old, slow, unphysical Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta midfield. Otherwise I don't understand the question.

What should have happened was Barca should have counterattacked the shit out of Madrid after taking the early lead when Madrid were putting so many bodies forward and leaving space behind but obviously Iniesta and Co. need to take 5 touches, exchange 10 passes between each other and do 3 pirouettes until the opponent regroups before releasing the ball forward and no one in the backline and in midfield is capable of defending. Not positionally closing down spaces, not in individual duels. Except Mascherano of course.

We are talking about Mascherano getting destroyed. I have said he should be moved forward and not defend aerials against 10 cm taller players and Lucho got the lineup wrong.

It's really simple and Dani said it before... you can't defend good teams with a defensive base shape of 7 (that includes Xavi and Iniesta, neither of which can defend).  I mean, if you had Nesta/Silva as CBs and Maldini/Abate as fullbacks, fine... but we're talking about a back line of Alvez/Pique/Mascherano/Mathieu.  In what world did Enrique think that back 4 could survive with only Busquets as midfield defensive cover?  That's just being stupid or naive.  Madrid have the most potent attack in the world right now and you're expecting that to work?

Defending is about managing real estate.  You want players to receive balls in the most advantageous areas for you... yet Barca let Madrid get balls in excellent positions for them.  When you're deal with WC attacking players, that's just a death sentence. The shape was set up in a way that it made it easy for Madrid to get the ball in optimum conditions.  

It was first and foremost a tactical fail by Enrique defensively.

On the attack...  too many cooks in the kitchen, which is going to be an ongoing problem until a pecking order is established and all 3 forwards play fully towards it.  Passing the ball to one of the forwards and then spectating is not an attack.

I guess I should rephrase or something then.

Didnt you think Madrid have some good spells of possession in this game? Because I did. I would say they had better possession than us. And I think it tells in why we ended up covering more distance than them.

I felt that our midfield was scared to death to push up the pitch because if they were beat, there was too much space to recover back into...perhaps because they know there are only 3 players of them who are coming back. Because of that, because Mathieu doesnt have the mentality to press and because of some laziness/lack of energy/lack of mentality from the forwards our team became broken. I felt like our forwards were quite separated from our midfield and it allowed Madrid to play the ball easier.

Why we are having a "who's coming back" discussion is worrying, why are we coming back and not pushing forward...anyways..

If Madrid break our pressing with some direct play and some counter attacking speed, get 1 v 1's against the CB's with space behind them, you hold you hands up and say...well, thats what they do, they are really fast and really good. But thats not just what happened, they had the ability to keep the ball and get numbers into the attack.

Im also a little tired of hearing how slow and un-athletic our midfield is..it was always slow and un-athletic..and in this game, Barca covered more distance than Madrid, and it surely wasnt the forwards who did the majority of that. Pressing isnt even about running, its about space.

As for Barca counter attacks. That was impossible, but not because of what you say. Iniesta and Xavi can play passes forward, but to who?

Neymar was often back trying to help (or more accurately, trying to make his way back) and he is the only one you can pass to and expect him to go on a run. But he was tired from defending and further away from goal than he should have been.

Suarez clearly is no counter threat in his current state, he wanted the ball to his feet. Messi was not playing like a 10, he wasnt dropping deep, the movement we all praised him for recently...I saw very little of.

If there ever was a game where Messi gets too close to the midfield and makes them redundant, this was the game for him to do it.

I was thinking during the game myself, every time we are intentionally not counter attacking..but why? Every time we got the ball, we intentionally slowed it down. This wasnt just because they want to waste time and pirouette for the sake of it as you say. Its because the counter attack threats we have were recovering their energy from defending (Neymar), not on the pitch (Alba), not offering himself for the ball (Messi) or not in physical condition to do so (Suarez).

Our lack of counter attack game is like a cycle.

We dont have enough defensive cover so forwards have to get back. If they dont, we dont win the ball or worse give chance, if they need the team to keep ball possession so they can get their energy back.

Why is it Madrid, with less possession (and therefore theoretically less able to recover energy) are able to counter and dont have to slow it down? Because Benzema offered himself countless times to hold up the ball and link the play, because their midfield 4 move forward and backwards as a unit..whereas we get back in bits and pieces. Not just because the midfield is slow, but because the roles are totally wrong. 3 players cant cover the entire width of the pitch, you need at least 4 and better is 5.


I know we did mention Mascherano, I am not saying his faults are being ignored. I am saying, if we want to pick out defensive problems in certain situations, we should start there, especially in that play.

Enough rambling, to sum up what I am trying to say is. What kind of defensive plan do we have? Because I dont know.

We can have some defensive mi-communications and mistakes, they will happen over the course of the game and there is nothing Enrique can do about that. That's on the players. But the actual structure of the team and their roles, thats on him...and I have no idea what he is trying to do defensively.

What about a 4-2-3-1 with Rakitic on the right ? It could also change in a 4-3-1-2 or 4-3-3

Not sure if mentioned, but Iniesta was injured and will be out 3 weeks.

btw at your sig. Our Masia players and Valencia's Masia player. Lovely player he is, always liked him

The Franchise wrote:I guess I should rephrase or something then.

Didnt you think Madrid have some good spells of possession in this game? Because I did. I would say they had better possession than us. And I think it tells in why we ended up covering more distance than them.

I felt that our midfield was scared to death to push up the pitch because if they were beat, there was too much space to recover back into...perhaps because they know there are only 3 players of them who are coming back. Because of that, because Mathieu doesnt have the mentality to press and because of some laziness/lack of energy/lack of mentality from the forwards our team became broken. I felt like our forwards were quite separated from our midfield and it allowed Madrid to play the ball easier.

Why we are having a "who's coming back" discussion is worrying, why are we coming back and not pushing forward...anyways..

If Madrid break our pressing with some direct play and some counter attacking speed, get 1 v 1's against the CB's with space behind them, you hold you hands up and say...well, thats what they do, they are really fast and really good. But thats not just what happened, they had the ability to keep the ball and get numbers into the attack.

Im also a little tired of hearing how slow and un-athletic our midfield is..it was always slow and un-athletic..and in this game, Barca covered more distance than Madrid, and it surely wasnt the forwards who did the majority of that. Pressing isnt even about running, its about space.

As for Barca counter attacks. That was impossible, but not because of what you say. Iniesta and Xavi can play passes forward, but to who?

Neymar was often back trying to help (or more accurately, trying to make his way back) and he is the only one you can pass to and expect him to go on a run. But he was tired from defending and further away from goal than he should have been.

Suarez clearly is no counter threat in his current state, he wanted the ball to his feet. Messi was not playing like a 10, he wasnt dropping deep, the movement we all praised him for recently...I saw very little of.

If there ever was a game where Messi gets too close to the midfield and makes them redundant, this was the game for him to do it.

I was thinking during the game myself, every time we are intentionally not counter attacking..but why? Every time we got the ball, we intentionally slowed it down. This wasnt just because they want to waste time and pirouette for the sake of it as you say. Its because the counter attack threats we have were recovering their energy from defending (Neymar), not on the pitch (Alba), not offering himself for the ball (Messi) or not in physical condition to do so (Suarez).

Our lack of counter attack game is like a cycle.

We dont have enough defensive cover so forwards have to get back. If they dont, we dont win the ball or worse give chance, if they need the team to keep ball possession so they can get their energy back.

Why is it Madrid, with less possession (and therefore theoretically less able to recover energy) are able to counter and dont have to slow it down? Because Benzema offered himself countless times to hold up the ball and link the play, because their midfield 4 move forward and backwards as a unit..whereas we get back in bits and pieces. Not just because the midfield is slow, but because the roles are totally wrong. 3 players cant cover the entire width of the pitch, you need at least 4 and better is 5.


I know we did mention Mascherano, I am not saying his faults are being ignored. I am saying, if we want to pick out defensive problems in certain situations, we should start there, especially in that play.

Enough rambling, to sum up what I am trying to say is. What kind of defensive plan do we have? Because I dont know.

We can have some defensive mi-communications and mistakes, they will happen over the course of the game and there is nothing Enrique can do about that. That's on the players. But the actual structure of the team and their roles, thats on him...and I have no idea what he is trying to do defensively.

Will read this in a few hours after finishing my homeworks.

Skip to the last two paragraphs lol