Re: The Lionel Messi Appreciation Thread & Fan Club II

[M99]

So Pele's career low is getting his legs broken?

And you are writing Messi with Argentina getting ROFLstomped by Germany in 2010 out of the history books too.

[Harmonica]

So Pele's career low is getting his legs broken?

And you are writing Messi with Argentina getting ROFLstomped by Germany in 2010 out of the history books too.

Messi and Maradona have been just as hard tackled or even more, it isn't an excuse. Pele played the crucial game and lost.

I don't think that was a low, Argentina finished 5th in WC10, which is greater achievement than 7th in CA11.

[Myesyats]

Penaltinel Missi just won a treble while being decisive in every final. This thread kinda deviates from its destination....

Shame he flopped in the most important final of his life. Missed a one on one with Neuer. Dat mental toughness.

Don't you have anything better to do? Bashed me for taking digs at Man utd but here you are barking all day at the best player to ever grace a pitch. Everyone has his own best player so the more stupid the discussions are and i'm not suprised you're involved in one.

[Perucho21]

Hugo Sotil (teammate Cruyff Barcelona) - "I've played with geniuses like Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, but for me Leo Messi Teofilo Cubillas is the best player."

[M99]

Messi got tackled harder than Pele Sure Defenders could not stop him so they decided to break Pele's legs and that is his greatest NT failure, ok then Would rather have that and three world cups rather than zero international trophies and missing a one on one in World Cup final or getting whooped 4 goals when you go into the tournament as the current best player in the world.

[The Demon of Carthage]

Not trying to poop on anyone's day but people should really stop making "runner-up" look like some kind of an award. Please just stop.It's just sad and pathetic.

Wait a little bit. Messi still has some years left in him and Argentina can win the WC. And if they do, you can gloriously display it on the cover of New York times for all I care. But please stop braggin about ending up as a runner-up. I'd rather my favorite team to get eliminated from the group stage than to progress all the way and bend over in the final.

[Harmonica]

Messi got tackled harder than Pele Sure Defenders could not stop him so they decided to break Pele's legs and that is his greatest NT failure, ok then Would rather have that and three world cups rather than zero international trophies and missing a one on one in World Cup final or getting whooped 4 goals when you go into the tournament as the current best player in the world.

Bahahaha, what a myth. There wasn't single hard tackle on Pele by Bulgarians, that Messi doesn't get multiple in every single game.

[BORUSSIA!!]

Not trying to poop on anyone's day but people should really stop making "runner-up" look like some kind of an award. Please just stop.It's just sad and pathetic.

Wait a little bit. Messi still has some years left in him and Argentina can win the WC. And if they do, you can gloriously display it on the cover of New York times for all I care. But please stop braggin about ending up as a runner-up. I'd rather my favorite team to get eliminated from the group stage than to progress all the way and bend over in the final.

only because emotionally it would be easier to take to go out in the group stages. but making the final is obviously a much bigger achievement than going out in the group stage and deserves more praise.

[BORUSSIA!!]

Messi got tackled harder than Pele Sure Defenders could not stop him so they decided to break Pele's legs and that is his greatest NT failure, ok then Would rather have that and three world cups rather than zero international trophies and missing a one on one in World Cup final or getting whooped 4 goals when you go into the tournament as the current best player in the world.

he didn't even play in the 1962 world cup at all. stop talking about players you've never even seen play.

[M99]

Pele not getting tackled hard is a myth... Messi gets tackled harder than Pele...

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2t0q_how-did-they-stop-pele-in-the-1966_sport

Not trying to poop on anyone's day but people should really stop making "runner-up" look like some kind of an award. Please just stop.It's just sad and pathetic.

Wait a little bit. Messi still has some years left in him and Argentina can win the WC. And if they do, you can gloriously display it on the cover of New York times for all I care. But please stop braggin about ending up as a runner-up. I'd rather my favorite team to get eliminated from the group stage than to progress all the way and bend over in the final.

Same with Olympic gold medal. Pele and Maradona never played in the Olympics ffs Pretty sure according to Harmonica Chicharito has a better NT career than Maradona with his Olympic gold, Gold Cup, Gold Cup runners up etc.

[M99]

Messi got tackled harder than Pele Sure Defenders could not stop him so they decided to break Pele's legs and that is his greatest NT failure, ok then Would rather have that and three world cups rather than zero international trophies and missing a one on one in World Cup final or getting whooped 4 goals when you go into the tournament as the current best player in the world.

he didn't even play in the 1962 world cup at all. stop talking about players you've never even seen play.

Did not play, you mean he played until the group stages where he got injured? I have seen and known enough of Pele to know that he had a better NT career than Messi. Now stop talking at all.

[Harmonica]

How they stopped Pele...    Stop the delusion about reading fecking myths, and watch the actual game.

[M99]

How they stopped Pele? Stop the delusion about reading fecking myths, and watch the actual game you child.

Believe me I watched a hell lot of Pele games on which footage is available and I have seen enough to know he had the better NT career.

[Harmonica]

Believe me I watched a hell lot of Pele games on which footage is available and I have seen enough to know he had the better NT career.

Why has Pele had better performance's in NT-career?

[M99]

Believe me I watched a hell lot of Pele games on which footage is available and I have seen enough to know he had the better NT career.

Why has Pele had better performance's in NT-career?

Because he was instrumental in winning two World Cups? Scored three goals in two finals instead of choking? Was arguably the best player in both 58 and 70? Actually scored goals in the knockout rounds?

[Harmonica]

Believe me I watched a hell lot of Pele games on which footage is available and I have seen enough to know he had the better NT career.

Why has Pele had better performance's in NT-career?

Because he was instrumental in winning two World Cups? Scored goals in two finals? Was arguably the best player in 58 and 70? Actually scored goals in the knockout rounds?

He wasn't even the best player in any of those, Didi was the best WC58, Garrincha in WC62 and Jairzinho in WC70. Pele is nothing more than hype machine of Brazil. Here's comparison of Messi vs Robben WC14 compared Pele vs Jairzinho WC70, when Pele was gifted the Golden Ball.

Messi WC14

4 goals from 3 great scoring chances
17 great scoring chances created
46 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
11 tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
7 (4 + 1 + 2) out of 8 team goals =  88% importance (+1 SO goal)

Robben WC14

3 goals from 8 great scoring chances
20 great scoring chances created
34 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
2 tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
10 (3 + 3 + 4) out of 15 team goals = 67% importance (+ 2 SO Goals)

Robben 14 is a great performance, it's almost identical performance of Cruyff 74, 3 goals from the same number of great chance's, the same number of dribbles, the same importance, Robben created slightly more great chance's (less OPTA chances) but defended less, round by round Robben has slight edge, but he did play 3rd compared to the final.

This gives additional perspective why Messi 14 performance was so good, he scored more from less chance's, dribbled more, defended more, was more important and was better in the h2h game. Robben created few great chance's more (less OPTA chances), but his games were more open, and round by round Messi was relatively better in 5 rounds. Robben played relatively only better in the final round, but it was more open game with less in stake.

Pele WC70

4 goals from 16 great scoring chances
14 great scoring chances created
16 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
9 tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
11 (4 + 6 + 1) out of 19 team goals =  58% importance

Jairzinho 70

7 goals from 6 great scoring chances
9 great scoring chances created
47 players beaten by dribble (OPTA)
4 tackles (OPTA)

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)
11 (7 + 1 + 3) out of 19 team goals = 58% importance

Jairzinho's goal scoring and dribbling was almost identical of Messi's, scored more goals based the chances he should had, and advanced the play by dribbling more than anyone in the tournament. But it isn't as good as Messi, because it's less important performance, and he created less scoring chances, and defended less.

But compared to Pele it's easily better one, Jairzinho played better in 4 rounds, only against Romania and Italy were they as good. Both were part 11 goals of 19 Brazil scored. And although he didn't put as much in creating and defending department, the margin in goal scoring in relation to chance's and dribbling is a massive one. This makes Pele's Golden Ball look really bizarre one, and what's even more bizarre is that Jairzinho wasn't even Top 3. In the old days it was more about marketability and hype, rather than the actual perfomance's. Which is quite logical as papers and the sport needed legends, and people didn't have video evidence to see through those as they can nowadays.

, from the chronicles of concrete and logical world cup performance evaluations:

http://www.goallegacy.net/t36526-most-controversial-world-cup-golden-ball-s-since-1966

[Myesyats]

Harmonica do you even sleep? The amount of stats and shit you do is actually impressive

[Valkyrja]

Do you make all this stuff in notepad or directly on the forum ?

[M99]

from the chronicles of concrete and logical world cup performance evaluations:

I would believe that if it was said by anyone other than you. The only person backing up your validity is...yourself. Bottom line is your stats mean shit and you really should pick up a new hobby because you are not convincing any one. You should have learnt that yourself when the only person that calls it concrete and logical is... yourself.

PS: How come you don't have 58 Pele/Didi on that thread? No sarcasm, I actually interested and curious to see it. If you have the time (you have plenty it seems) you should do it.

[Harmonica]

Harmonica do you even sleep? The amount of stats and shit you do is actually impressive

Well you only need to watch games only once, and then you can just copy&paste notes them when needed.

[Harmonica]

from the chronicles of concrete and logical world cup performance evaluations:

I would believe that if it was said by anyone other than you. The only person backing up your validity is...yourself. Bottom line is your stats mean shit and you really should pick up a new hobby because you are not convincing any one. You should have learnt that yourself when the only person that calls it concrete and logical is... yourself.

PS: How come you don't have 58 Pele/Didi on that thread? No sarcasm, I actually interested and curious to see it. If you have the time (you have plenty it seems) you should do it.

Every logical person agrees with logic, that's enough for me.

WC58 wasn't televised fully, WC66 is the first fully televised World Cup.

[FennecFox7]

Messi had a great world cup and I will actually agree with that.

But putting up tackles as a stat is an insult. There wasn't a standout performer in the world cup player wise. James, Mascherano, Messi, Robben, Benzema all had great WC's. And there's more players I'm missing I'm sure.

[Harmonica]

Tackling is the best quality statistic to show how much player defended.

[Harmonica]

Goal scoring peak and consistency

[Harmonica]

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)

WC14 Messi 7 (4 + 1 + 2) out of 8 team goals = 88% importance, runner-up (Golden Ball)
CA15 Messi 10 (1 + 3 + 6) out of 10 team goals = 100% importance, runner-up (MVP)
CL14-15 Messi 23 (10 + 7 + 6) out of 28 team goals = 82% importance, champion (Best Player)

[Harmonica]

Best Year of Football ever played.

Messi 14-15

For Argentina

World Cup runner-up, Golden Ball
Copa America runner-up, MVP

For Barcelona

Spanish Cup champion, best player
Spanish League champion, best player
Champions League champion, best player

Some numbers

Treble winning Barcelona 14-15 (League+UCL) Messi had

most games 51 (45 Neymar)
most goals 53 (32 Neymar)
most assists (wide) 29 (20 Suarez)
most dribbles 267 (131 Neymar)
most chance's created 131 (76 Neymar)
most through balls 48 (11 Iniesta)
most passes 3173 (2820 Busquets)

League + CL Messi had

most games 51 (48 Kroos)
most goals (excl. pen) 48 (45 Cronaldo)
most assists (wide) 29 (23 Fabregas)
most dribbles 267 (232 Hazard)
most chance's created 131 (116 Hazard)
most through balls 48 (23 Silva)

- 74 official games, 66 goals, 39 assists.
- First ever forward to player every league and CL game.
- Only one with 4 official MoM in WC14 (Robben 3) and CA15 ( Vidal 3)

Not only great team achievements, but individually dominating football the whole year in every competition. A unique performance.

Same in examples


Best Weak Foot Goal

Best Freekick Goal

Best Header Goal

Best Dribble

Best Control

Best Short Pass

Best Medium Pass

Best Long Pass

Best Through Ball

Best Holding Ball

Best Game Reading

Best Tackle

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