GAME OF THRONES - PART 5 - *NO BOOK TALK - READ THE RULES*

M99 wrote:Which is exactly the problem. Instead of having her grow into a manipulative, cunning, strong woman who actively plays the game of thrones they have her become a victim again. Third rape of a female main character

RealGunner wrote:They could have 100% done the Sansa scene differently.

Last season, the showed us how badass she has become and how she can play the game. Littlefinger has taught her stuff. Now she is back to being season 2 Sansa all of a sudden?

She could have played Ramsay by seducing him. She could have tested her powers and forced Theon to leave. Ramsay would beat her? And what will the people in the north say when they see her bruised lol?

They could have made Theon save her.

That scene was character development for Theon and nothing more. Which makes it even worse.

From reddit

Not many of the responses to last night's episode have considered the ramifications of D&D's choices regarding Sansa's character arc. And I don't mean just with regards to the last scene; I mean the whole season.

1. Sansa and Ramsay consummating their marriage was inevitable, unless it happened a lot later in the season, and Sansa and Theon escaped before anything transpired. Therefore, D&D consciously chose this ending when they decided to write Sansa into the Northern storyline. Furthermore, in a recent interview they claim to have done so because they wanted to feature more of Sophie Turner's excellent acting. Eesh. Instead of marital rape, they could have written that Sansa seduces Ramsay, in the same way Littlefinger instructed her to do to Harry/Ramsay in the book/show. She could have ordered Theon to leave, testing her power and somewhat diffusing the situation. They could have shown Sansa to be silent and resolved during the scene, rather than fearful and crying. Let me be clear, my complaint here isn't about how Sansa acted, because Sansa is a fictional character; it's about how D&D chose to write her reaction to the event.

2. Sansa's character arc is likely being sacrificed for Theon's development. It's clear many people empathized more strongly with Theon in the scene than with Sansa. Likely, Theon will be the one to rescue Sansa. This means Sansa's abuse was introduced into the story so that Theon could have a vehicle for improvement and redemption. It's true that the rape scene is much more traumatic for both parties involved. However, Sansa's character development is not affected by the book's plot in Winterfell. A similar thing happened in their adaptation of the Faith Militant, where the writers felt it necessary to attack Loras for his sexuality in order to characterize the faith as moral hardliners. This could have been accomplished without sacrificing Loras.

3. Sansa lacks agency in the show's storyline. In the show, Sansa has been abandoned by Littlefinger, handed over to the enemy and, since Joffrey and the Mountain are "dead," probably the most sadistic person in Westeros. While she had the gumption to tell Myranda off, that could backfire on her as well. Ramsay clearly holds power over her and Theon/Reek. We don't know how the rest of the season will play out, but it is likely she will continue to be the victim, the damsel in distress, a vehicle for Theon's redemption or Brienne's oathkeeping-complex. She doesn't need to marry the Boltons to reclaim Winterfell, because the Boltons are usurpers, traitors. With her brothers gone, Sansa is the rightful heir to the North.

So, this is about way more than rape. Sure, Sansa can emerge from this event stronger. GRRM has defended his inclusion of sexual violence as a reality of the world they inhabit. However, GRRM does not use sexual abuse as the only source of trauma and growth for female characters. And, GRRM appears to be writing a different path for Sansa, one with more agency and less trauma. I guess we could always be surprised, but if Sansa flirting with Harry is considered "controversial," then I'm betting not.

urbaNRoots wrote:Freeza you're wrong, Sansa saved Littlefinger's ass last season in the trial for Lysa's death. That was a great moment for the character where she choose to side with Littlefinger rather than the lords of the Vale because she knew what Littlefinger wants but didn't know what these lords want from her. From that scene we realize that Sansa has the upper hand and can destroy Littlefinger any time she wants, and yet they change her to a victim again just for shock value. That's terrible writing and has no excuses.

Freeza wrote:

urbaNRoots wrote:Freeza you're wrong, Sansa saved Littlefinger's ass last season in the trial for Lysa's death. That was a great moment for the character where she choose to side with Littlefinger rather than the lords of the Vale because she knew what Littlefinger wants but didn't know what these lords want from her. From that scene we realize that Sansa has the upper hand and can destroy Littlefinger any time she wants, and yet they change her to a victim again just for shock value. That's terrible writing and has no excuses.

Shock value? How in the world is that a shock value? It was 100% certain ever since the marriage was arranged. It's Ramsey freaking Bolton, of course he's gonna rape her. If anything it was smart of her imo to not do anything and wait for the right time to strike.

Just don't like her character overall. Which means she'll live. Never once has a character I enjoyed not been killed. R.I.P Jon Snow and Stannis.

urbaNRoots wrote:

Freeza wrote:

urbaNRoots wrote:Freeza you're wrong, Sansa saved Littlefinger's ass last season in the trial for Lysa's death. That was a great moment for the character where she choose to side with Littlefinger rather than the lords of the Vale because she knew what Littlefinger wants but didn't know what these lords want from her. From that scene we realize that Sansa has the upper hand and can destroy Littlefinger any time she wants, and yet they change her to a victim again just for shock value. That's terrible writing and has no excuses.

Shock value? How in the world is that a shock value? It was 100% certain ever since the marriage was arranged. It's Ramsey freaking Bolton, of course he's gonna rape her. If anything it was smart of her imo to not do anything and wait for the right time to strike.

Just don't like her character overall. Which means she'll live. Never once has a character I enjoyed not been killed. R.I.P Jon Snow and Stannis.

Well if you don't like her that's fair enough, but just speaking from a neutrals perspective... Sansa's arc at the beginning has been of a little girl who 's living in a harsh world getting her little dreams completely destroyed. Then from S2-S3 we see her growth, she uses her 'lady's courtesy' to survive in the reign of King Joffrey and in the meantime listens/learns from the great players of Westeros. Finally in S4 we see the payoff in the Vale, she plays Littlefinger/Lysa and the Lords of the Vale.

Now in S5, we went backwards to her S2 arc, where she is a victim again being pawned around. If we compare, it would be like having Jon become Lord Commander only to be bitched around by Janos Slynt and Alliser Thorne. No, instead Jon chops Slynt's head off and gains Alliser Thorne's respect, that's character growth while what they did with her is shit.

No doubt, you're right that the bedding had to happen after agreeing the marriage but why didn't they have Sansa try to charm him, seduce him before, atleast she wouldn't be a bystander like Littlefinger told her in E3. No they had to have Ramsay rape her so we can talk about it all week until the next episode. That's cheap and we're not used with cheap in Game of Thrones, that's why the outrage.

urbaNRoots wrote:Even if she wasn't successful, she would be doing SOMETHING to improve her situation and not wait until Stannis/Littlefinger come to help her. "Stop being a bystander", why include this line at all if they were going to make her do nothing but take whatever the Boltons do with her. Why should it take a RAPE to actively seek revenge, it's not like she didn't have enough reasons since the moment she entered Winterfell?

GRRM wrote:"I am getting a flood of emails and off-topic comments on this blog about tonight's episode of GAME OF THRONES. It's not unanticipated.

The comments... regardless of tone... have been deleted. I have been saying since season one that this is not the place to debate or discuss the TV series. Please respect that.

There are better places for such discussions: Westeros, Tower of the Hand, Watchers on the Wall, Winter Is Coming, the comments sections of the television critics who regularly follow the show: James Hibberd, Alyssa Rosenberg, Mo Ryan, James Poniewozik, and their colleagues. I am sure all those sites will be having a healthy debate.

I have a lot of fans asking me for comment.

Let me reiterate what I have said before.

How many children did Scarlett O'Hara have? Three, in the novel. One, in the movie. None, in real life: she was a fictional character, she never existed. The show is the show, the books are the books; two different tellings of the same story.

There have been differences between the novels and the television show since the first episode of season one. And for just as long, I have been talking about the butterfly effect. Small changes lead to larger changes lead to huge changes. HBO is more than forty hours into the impossible and demanding task of adapting my lengthy (extremely) and complex (exceedingly) novels, with their layers of plots and subplots, their twists and contradictions and unreliable narrators, viewpoint shifts and ambiguities, and a cast of characters in the hundreds.

There has seldom been any TV series as faithful to its source material, by and large (if you doubt that, talk to the Harry Dresden fans, or readers of the Sookie Stackhouse novels, or the fans of the original WALKING DEAD comic books)... but the longer the show goes on, the bigger the butterflies become. And now we have reached the point where the beat of butterfly wings is stirring up storms, like the one presently engulfing my email.

Prose and television have different strengths, different weaknesses, different requirements.

David and Dan and Bryan and HBO are trying to make the best television series that they can.

And over here I am trying to write the best novels that I can.

And yes, more and more, they differ. Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose... but all of us are still intending that at the end we will arrive at the same place.

In the meantime, we hope that the readers and viewers both enjoy the journey. Or journeys, as the case may be. Sometimes butterflies grow into dragons."

El Shaarawy wrote:

urbaNRoots wrote:

Freeza wrote:


Shock value? How in the world is that a shock value? It was 100% certain ever since the marriage was arranged. It's Ramsey freaking Bolton, of course he's gonna rape her. If anything it was smart of her imo to not do anything and wait for the right time to strike.

Just don't like her character overall. Which means she'll live. Never once has a character I enjoyed not been killed. R.I.P Jon Snow and Stannis.

Well if you don't like her that's fair enough, but just speaking from a neutrals perspective... Sansa's arc at the beginning has been of a little girl who 's living in a harsh world getting her little dreams completely destroyed. Then from S2-S3 we see her growth, she uses her 'lady's courtesy' to survive in the reign of King Joffrey and in the meantime listens/learns from the great players of Westeros. Finally in S4 we see the payoff in the Vale, she plays Littlefinger/Lysa and the Lords of the Vale.

Now in S5, we went backwards to her S2 arc, where she is a victim again being pawned around. If we compare, it would be like having Jon become Lord Commander only to be bitched around by Janos Slynt and Alliser Thorne. No, instead Jon chops Slynt's head off and gains Alliser Thorne's respect, that's character growth while what they did with her is shit.

No doubt, you're right that the bedding had to happen after agreeing the marriage but why didn't they have Sansa try to charm him, seduce him before, atleast she wouldn't be a bystander like Littlefinger told her in E3. No they had to have Ramsay rape her so we can talk about it all week until the next episode. That's cheap and we're not used with cheap in Game of Thrones, that's why the outrage.

+1 :clap:

Freeza wrote:

urbaNRoots wrote:Even if she wasn't successful, she would be doing SOMETHING to improve her situation and not wait until Stannis/Littlefinger come to help her. "Stop being a bystander", why include this line at all if they were going to make her do nothing but take whatever the Boltons do with her. Why should it take a RAPE to actively seek revenge, it's not like she didn't have enough reasons since the moment she entered Winterfell?

It's not as much that as waiting to do something at the right moment. She'll probably convert Theon, and make him somewhat redeemable again, Theon will die and she'll escape or rule the north.  No way it won't pay off tbh. Just can't see the problem with the rape, since it seems realistic that women would be treated that way in this world where men gets their cocks cut off at any time.

Glory wrote:

Freeza wrote:

urbaNRoots wrote:Even if she wasn't successful, she would be doing SOMETHING to improve her situation and not wait until Stannis/Littlefinger come to help her. "Stop being a bystander", why include this line at all if they were going to make her do nothing but take whatever the Boltons do with her. Why should it take a RAPE to actively seek revenge, it's not like she didn't have enough reasons since the moment she entered Winterfell?

It's not as much that as waiting to do something at the right moment. She'll probably convert Theon, and make him somewhat redeemable again, Theon will die and she'll escape or rule the north.  No way it won't pay off tbh. Just can't see the problem with the rape, since it seems realistic that women would be treated that way in this world where men gets their cocks cut off at any time.

No he wont. I am pretty sure about that. The writers wouldnt have invested this much time and energy in his story if his role was meant to be cut off after 1 mission (If that mission approaches quickly that is.)
Now more so as he occupied the central spotlight in the latest infamous sequence.
A big positive from the rape scene is that They now have got the ammo to carry that reek arc really nicely now.