Re: Iniesta vs Zidane (revisited)

by Bankz Tue 24 Nov 2015, 07:57

I watched zidane in his prime from 1996 - 2006 maybe not on a weekly basis (from his bordeux days) but I was able to watch at least 10 matches each from 1996 - 97 and at least 30 matches each season in his juve days (serie A was the in thing then) from 97 - 01 and 40+ matches in madrid each season. And I practically watched all of zidanes international tournaments..

Zidane vs El phenomeno was the ronaldo vs messi of today (till R9's injury at least).. :bow:

by guest_07 Tue 24 Nov 2015, 12:14

farfan wrote:
El Messico wrote:
Valkyrja wrote:How did France cope without Zidane in the 02 world cup ?

Was waiting for this post to come up. Surely France did not do well without Zidane. They lost to Senegal and drew with Uruguay. But Zidane played the final group game and even then lost to Denmark 2-0.

Bringing up France 02 paints the picture that France was useless without Zidane during his time with the team. But France was still eliminated by the Czechs in Euro 96 and the Greeks in Euro 2004 despite having Zidane in both those tournaments.

Even in World Cup 06, France was on the brink of elimination from a group containing South Korea, Switzerland and Togo. Having received yellow cards amid poor performances in both draws against the Swiss and Koreans, Zidane was suspended for the final must-win group game against Togo. France ultimately qualified, and it was clear that Ribery was the best player in the team, atleast until the end of the Spain R16 game.

Then came the Brazil QF and with it the hype overload.

You didn't exactly refute the notion that France sucked without Zidane ....

to be more precise regarding the france 2002 wc,

france (without zidane + pires) vs senegal was suck

france (without zidane + pires + henry (played only 25min cause of red card) vs uruguay was suck

france (with zidane but without pires + henry) vs denmark was suck

by Mamad Tue 24 Nov 2015, 12:32

The fact that Iniesta fans try to compare him to Zidane everytime he shines shows how good Zidane was.

Zidane was a team on his own. a leader. Iniesta is poor mans Zidane.

by titosantill Tue 24 Nov 2015, 19:36

@guest...just for the record, zidane was still injured vs denmark. he wasn't supposed to play in any of the group games, they played him as an act of desperation, guy was limping around with his leg wrapped up in tape....he wasn't close to being fit and shouldn't have played that game

by guest_07 Tue 24 Nov 2015, 20:32

titosantill wrote:@guest...just for the record, zidane was still injured vs denmark. he wasn't supposed to play in any of the group games, they played him as an act of desperation, guy was limping around with his leg wrapped up in tape....he wasn't close to being fit and shouldn't have played that game

i'm aware about his injury

i just to act like a devil's advocate here

by futbol Tue 24 Nov 2015, 22:43

Bankz wrote:I watched zidane in his prime from 1996 - 2006

Did you just pretend to be older than 12?

by Lucifer Tue 24 Nov 2015, 22:59

futbol wrote:
Bankz wrote:I watched zidane in his prime from 1996 - 2006

Did you just pretend to be older than 12?

by Donuts Tue 24 Nov 2015, 23:10

futbol wrote:
Bankz wrote:I watched zidane in his prime from 1996 - 2006

Did you just pretend to be older than 12?

by Bankz Tue 24 Nov 2015, 23:50

futbol wrote:
Bankz wrote:I watched zidane in his prime from 1996 - 2006

Did you just pretend to be older than 12?

U pos

by guest_07 Mon 30 Nov 2015, 11:36

i found this in bigsoccer:

Real Madrid without Zidane: Champions League title in 1998 and 2000; Liga title in 1997, 2001 (note: and Real Madrid won La Liga in the 2006-07 season, right after Zidane retired).

Real Madrid with Zidane: Champions League title in 2002; Liga title in 2003.

Juventus without Zidane: UEFA Cup Final appearance in 1995; Champions League title in 1996; Serie A title in 1995, 1997, 1998 (note: and another Serie A in the 2001-02 season, right after Zidane left, and with Nedved quickly making the fans forget about Zidane; followed by another Serie A title in the 2002-03 season, as well as a Champions League Final appearance in the 2002-03 season, as well as Nedved winning the Ballon d'Or around the same time).

Juventus with Zidane: Champions League Final appearances in 1997 and 1998; Serie A title in 1997 and 1998 (note: Zidane failed to win a single Serie A title after Del Piero's knee injury).

http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/xavi-iniesta-better-than-zidane.2021285/page-58

by jibers Mon 30 Nov 2015, 12:27

Bankz wrote: at least zidane got to 2 world cup finals to begin with, all despite having far inferior suards..

Multiple titles? Lol, so u think zidane wouldn't beast it up in dem pepcelona teams? Try putting iniesta in that galactico team and the 03 - 06 french team and see him do the hazard ghosting impression.

Saying iniesta was one of the best players in those finals in just lol worthy tbh, every big game player is always ONE OF the best players in almost every game they play, so I don't see how saying iniesta was one of the best players at so and so final is proving anything or has there being a final where zidane wasn't one of the best players?

Moreso, loosing more finals doesn't make one player inferior to the other.
Again, zidane was equally the man of the match against brazil in the 98 & 06 world cup finals,
was a 2002 CL final MVP,
was euro 2000 MVP,
was world cup 06 MVP,
was a 3 time FIFA wpoty winner,
was a one time balon d'or winner,

Btw, didn't iniesta loose the confederations cup final by a neymar designed 0 - 3 dishwashing? Wasn't spain disgraced out of the 2014 world cup?

In conclusion, there's nothing, and I mean nothing that iniesta has done/achieved that zidane hasn't and then some.

You can't be serious. Zidane was in front of the best defensive unit in world cup history...Desailly, Thuram, Blanc, Lizarazu then Deschamps and karembeu (RM Cl winner in 98). Biggest myth in football second only to Maradona carrying Argentina by himself.

guest_07 wrote:i found this in bigsoccer:

Real Madrid without Zidane: Champions League title in 1998 and 2000; Liga title in 1997, 2001 (note: and Real Madrid won La Liga in the 2006-07 season, right after Zidane retired).

Real Madrid with Zidane: Champions League title in 2002; Liga title in 2003.

Juventus without Zidane: UEFA Cup Final appearance in 1995; Champions League title in 1996; Serie A title in 1995, 1997, 1998 (note: and another Serie A in the 2001-02 season, right after Zidane left, and with Nedved quickly making the fans forget about Zidane; followed by another Serie A title in the 2002-03 season, as well as a Champions League Final appearance in the 2002-03 season, as well as Nedved winning the Ballon d'Or around the same time).

Juventus with Zidane: Champions League Final appearances in 1997 and 1998; Serie A title in 1997 and 1998 (note: Zidane failed to win a single Serie A title after Del Piero's knee injury).

http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/xavi-iniesta-better-than-zidane.2021285/page-58

Anyone that watched Zidane back then knows that his myth is overblown. In his first 2 seasons ADP was far better than Zidane and more impornant. If ADP didn't get injured, he would have been on R9s level. Zidane's reputation exploded after that 98 final.

sportsczy wrote:One is asked to make the difference in the final 1/3 and or from one side while the other is asked to control the flow of the game across the pitch. Xavi played Zidane's role and now Rakitic. Iniesta doesn't play Zidane's role. You're not comparing the right players.

Scholes - Pirlo- Xavi - Zidane - Schweini - etc.... these are proper comparisons.

I get where you are coming from and I sort of agree. He dropped deep to pick the ball from mf and then drove forward similar to Xavi. Stylistically he more similar to Iniesta which is why I did this comparison and the parallels between them is frightening

Both scored winners to win their countrys maiden WC
Both where best players in the Euros: 02 and 12
Both are balding Laughing

Zidane was the holding player at the start of his Juve career iirc. Then he was pushed forward. TBH, comparing Zidane to Xavi as CMs, Xavi is a level above Zidane in that role or any other player. Only thing Zidane is better at is dribbling directly. That's why Iniesta is more appropriate. Zidane is rated more based on his elegance.

Anyways passing, Iniesta is better, Iniesta is a better dribbler, better ball control and better in tighter spaces. Zidane was stronger, better in the air and better at set pieces. Iniesta is a far bigger game player and has beeen motm in almost every major final he played where as Zidane flopped in 2 finals for Juventus. R9s injury was the biggest saviour for Zidanes myth.

Zidane is a great player but he is nowhere in the category of Cruijff, Messi, Pele or Beckenbauer for me.

@Mole I think Iniesta is underrated and ZIdane is ovverated. The fact that Zidane is mentioned in the same breadth as Pele says it all for me. It's outrageous. He isn't the best controller, or the best assister or best passer yet he is in that category. Laughable.

Anyways, they are both around the same level for me. For me Iniesta is the little version of Zidane.

by The Franchise Mon 30 Nov 2015, 13:24

I keep the same opinion I had before.

Iniesta is the same skill level as Zidane, some slight differences in some abilities but overall they play a somewhat similar game and at a similar level with some strange knack for clutch goals despite not being regular goalscorers.

Iniesta gave alot more defensive effort, while Zidane was physically bigger and give him more forcefulness with his runs. But that being said, its impossible to shake Iniesta off the ball anyhow, he protects the ball with his body better than anyone I seen and you have to foul him to take the ball if he goes ahead and decides he isnt going to lose it.

Iniesta to me can drift past more players in succession than Zidane could, Zidane was a guy you pass to in a difficult position and he makes an impossible directional control turn, go past another and then the final ball or action. I dont need a youtube of Zidane dribbling 3 players, I know it happened before...I merely say that Iniesta is more capable of it.

Zidane had a better shot from distance, while not looking at the stats I assume this didnt lead to him being that much a better goalscorer than Iniesta, the threat of him shooting with either foot was real and I think defenders had more difficult with him on the edge of the box than normal.

All this who won what titles with which players is a whole lot of useless noise. It makes no difference at all. Speak about their qualities and what you actually see, not some irrelevant things with no logic to the actual games being played.

by sportsczy Thu 17 Dec 2015, 00:32

It's not a question of who won what titles...

You can't knock Iniesta for having played on only one team in one league under the same style since he was 12... and many of the same club teammates on NT.

HOWEVER, you can and must credit Zidane for playing in different leagues, in different styles under many different managers YET, with very minimal exceptions (early months at Juve and Madrid), he had the same impact and performance. It didn't matter to him.

Was Iniesta great? absolutely. But Zidane proved more (not Iniesta's fault) because he had a much more varied and challenging football career while winning everywhere.

Also, Zidane was the superstar player everywhere. He was the man regardless of how great his teammates were. Iniesta was not the star with Ronaldinho, Messi and even Xavi there. Heck, Villa was a bigger star for NT for many through 2010. There was no doubt with Zidane at all and his teammates had equal pedigree as Iniesta's teammates.... actually more when you look at it. France NT, Juve and Madrid were super elite teams.

by Winter is Coming Fri 18 Dec 2015, 13:48

So, in other words X player is better then Y, because Y player decided to be loyal to one club. Sounds about right.

If Zidane played in an era were goals counted the most he wouldn't have been a superstar, especially not in this Messi/CR world.

by sportsczy Sat 19 Dec 2015, 04:55

That's not what i'm saying...

You can project that Iniesta would perform similarly in different circumstances but you don't know because it never happened. For Zidane, you know because he did perform at legendary level in different circumstances.

You can't discount Iniesta for it. But you can't give him credit for something he didn't achieve either. For Zidane, you can give him credit because he did achieve it.

And the fact that Zidane was the top player on all his clubs other than a handful of months is undeniable.

As an analogy.... compare Zuckerberg v Jobs. Jobs not only founded and brought Apple to what we know today, he also bought Pixar from Lucasfilm for $10 million in 1986 and sold it for $7.4 billion in 2005. He made CGI animation into what it is today to go along with his Apple innovations. So although you can't question Zuckerberg's brilliance and you can guess that his brilliance would transcend Facebook... it hasn't yet and maybe never will. Doesn't take away from Zuckerberg's brilliance and maybe he is equally as talented as jobs. But you're just projecting that he is... Jobs, on the other hand, is proven. So in my mind at least, Jobs > Zuckerberg.

by jibers Sat 19 Dec 2015, 10:22

sportsczy wrote:That's not what i'm saying...

You can project that Iniesta would perform similarly in different circumstances but you don't know because it never happened. For Zidane, you know because he did perform at legendary level in different circumstances.

You can't discount Iniesta for it. But you can't give him credit for something he didn't achieve either. For Zidane, you can give him credit because he did achieve it.

And the fact that Zidane was the top player on all his clubs other than a handful of months is undeniable.

As an analogy.... compare Zuckerberg v Jobs. Jobs not only founded and brought Apple to what we know today, he also bought Pixar from Lucasfilm for $10 million in 1986 and sold it for $7.4 billion in 2005. He made CGI animation into what it is today to go along with his Apple innovations. So although you can't question Zuckerberg's brilliance and you can guess that his brilliance would transcend Facebook... it hasn't yet and maybe never will. Doesn't take away from Zuckerberg's brilliance and maybe he is equally as talented as jobs. But you're just projecting that he is... Jobs, on the other hand, is proven. So in my mind at least, Jobs > Zuckerberg.

Yea so legendary for Juve that when Del Piero got injured Zidane was anonymous. Legendary level for Madrid? What are you smoking sports?

This is the kind of hyperbole I'm talking about when Zidane is mentioned Laughing

by Valkyrja Sat 19 Dec 2015, 10:33

Zidane is not a Madrid legend. Can't pronounce myself on his Juve stint though

by futbol_bill Sat 19 Dec 2015, 11:50

Valkyrja wrote:Zidane is not a Madrid legend. Can't pronounce myself on his Juve stint though

??? Are you kidding me?

by Valkyrja Sat 19 Dec 2015, 12:04

futbol_bill wrote:
Valkyrja wrote:Zidane is not a Madrid legend. Can't pronounce myself on his Juve stint though

??? Are you kidding me?

no. i don't consider him a madrid legend, probably due to the fact that his stint in madrid coincides with the worst madrid team I've ever seen and like the other galacticos he didn't do anything of note, except for that goal. his charisma propelled him to his current status.

by guest_07 Thu 07 Jan 2016, 07:39

i just found out the video about zidane's skill that media always didn't show before

by titosantill Thu 07 Jan 2016, 09:13

people have a lot of time on their hands...not sure what that's supposed to prove

by guest_07 Thu 07 Jan 2016, 10:08

titosantill wrote:people have a lot of time on their hands...not sure what that's supposed to prove

its prove that zidane was not zero from silly mistake

in fact, its quite astonishing to have a compilation of 22 minutes of silly mistakes for player as famous as zidane who many rated him as top 10 best player in all time

by titosantill Thu 07 Jan 2016, 10:28

what's quite astonishing is the desperation of the vid creator terming it "rare skills", that wreaks of desperation and an agenda. there isn't a footballer above errors, and any jobless person with time on their hands can go out and start fishing for every footballers mistakes and find something. maybe gaizka mendieta with his few turnovers is now better than zidane....stick to the riquelme praises, this doesn't suit you.

by guest_07 Thu 07 Jan 2016, 11:16

titosantill wrote:what's quite astonishing is the desperation of the vid creator terming it "rare skills", that wreaks of desperation and an agenda. there isn't a footballer above errors, and any jobless person with time on their hands can go out and start fishing for every footballers mistakes and find something. maybe gaizka mendieta with his few turnovers is now better than zidane....stick to the riquelme praises, this doesn't suit you.

don't be too defensive

every player is not free from criticize

even legendary like casillas, people made fun of him because of silly mistakes

by Harmonica Thu 07 Jan 2016, 12:36

Iniesta vs Zidane (revisited) - Page 2 Andres-Iniesta-Zinedine-Zidane-Comparison

Iniesta Ballon d'Or #2, Euro Best Player, Uefa Best Player
Zidane Ballon d'Or #1, World Cup Golden Ball, Euro Best Player, Uefa Best Player

Iniesta won more team titles, Zidane individual titles, both are overrated, although Iniesta less so. So Iniesta wins.

by Winter is Coming Thu 07 Jan 2016, 12:41

Both are overrated? rofl

Iniesta win % in the finals tho Proud

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