Liverpool v Manchester United

Don't call me James wrote:Benteke is even more shit and we wouldn't create any of the chances we did if Benteke was playing.

This is such a myth. Benteke isn't any less mobile or worse with the ball than Giroud, Lukaku or Bony. Those are either first or second choice strikers for some of the best attacking teams in the league. You put Benteke in Arsenal's or Everton's or City's (instead of Bony, not Aguero) line-up and their attacking play wouldn't suddenly become shit.

As a goalscorer Benteke is better than Firmino and we need a goal scoring striker because the other players score so little.

The players who were in shooting position were Henderson and can lol both can't finish for shit.

Thats the drawback of playing that line up.

Allen and Benteke should both have been starting today.

That said why couldn't we have a keeper like De Gea? Such a huge difference.

Either way as we can see from how this season has gone the issue was never the coaching. Klopp is doing no better organizing this team than Rodgers did -- in fact in some cases there are some really perplexing decisions on his part personnel wise and tactically. However, I still think he's a great coach (and so was Rodgers, tactically). Klopp's going to make or break his Liverpool tenure in the area that Rodgers was weakest and that was squad building and talent evaluation. I still think this team is good but it's painfully obvious that there's a lack of goals in it and we need to play our best goal scorers (like Benteke) as well as identify some real targets that can provide goals (again, Allen should have been starting this game).

At the end of the day this is still a game we should have won but just didn't. It's depressing, but on to the next. Just hoping for some cup success this year.

All these learnings, we have to use to win the Europa League this season !

Can't score a goal. Weak at the back and beat by another set play goal. When are we gonna see some of these problems getting fixed.

Art Morte wrote:

Don't call me James wrote:Benteke is even more shit and we wouldn't create any of the chances we did if Benteke was playing.

This is such a myth. Benteke isn't any less mobile or worse with the ball than Giroud, Lukaku or Bony. Those are either first or second choice strikers for some of the best attacking teams in the league. You put Benteke in Arsenal's or Everton's or City's (instead of Bony, not Aguero) line-up and their attacking play wouldn't suddenly become shit.

As a goalscorer Benteke is better than Firmino and we need a goal scoring striker because the other players score so little.

Klopp doesn't think so. That's why Benteke is not starting even though we have no other striker available.

Curtinho wrote:
Either way as we can see from how this season has gone the issue was never the coaching. Klopp is doing no better organizing this team than Rodgers did -- in fact in some cases there are some really perplexing decisions on his part personnel wise and tactically. However, I still think he's a great coach (and so was Rodgers, tactically).

That's absurd.
The difference is that Rodgers got tactically owned by van Gaal repeatedly, while Klopp owned van Gaal today.
Your organisation today was absolutely outstanding

Sadly, the players Rodgers assembled are to mediocre to win such a match. Henderson etc taking shots from 35 yards out after winning an ball.

Sturidge is taking the piss with this injury shit. What could keep him out this long.

It was nice to see the near constant pressure. I feel like we are dialing it in. Will be too late in the season once it al comes together I fear. There is always next year right?

Though when I saw Firmino and Milner I sank. Just sayin'.

Don't call me James wrote:Another shit season to be written off. sigh

The "season" was a write off the moment we decided to keep Rodgers passed the summer.

Disappointing result, but looking at our squad is hardly surprising. We have no strikers, no creativity, no fluidity.

Art Morte wrote:

Don't call me James wrote:Benteke is even more shit and we wouldn't create any of the chances we did if Benteke was playing.

This is such a myth. Benteke isn't any less mobile or worse with the ball than Giroud, Lukaku or Bony. Those are either first or second choice strikers for some of the best attacking teams in the league. You put Benteke in Arsenal's or Everton's or City's (instead of Bony, not Aguero) line-up and their attacking play wouldn't suddenly become shit.

As a goalscorer Benteke is better than Firmino and we need a goal scoring striker because the other players score so little.

1. Benteke is less mobile than all of them. Also, Giroud and Lukaku are comfortable with the ball at their feet and ACTUALLY PRESS. Benteke is essentially a poacher ala Bony. And Bony has hardly done anything significant since joining Man City so yeah his attacking play would become "shit" just like what happened to Bony.

2. Benteke is only good when he's the main man/target man; IE THE system. He's not getting that under Klopp and has proved time and time again he's not adequate enough to lead the line when he isn't. Blame Klopp all you want, but he's actually building a team squad here and doesn't care about short term results. The fact that Benteke can't get on the pitch when we don't have any other strikers fit just proves that he's not good enough / not ready / will be sold in the summer.

3. Look at it like Ibra at Barcelona. Now Benteke doesn't even come close to Ibra's quality, but Ibra didn't suit Barcelona (he still had an amazing game to goal ratio because he's world class but he slowed Barcelona down and didn't suit them as much as a small mobile player would, and thus was benched / sold. At the end of the day, you play to your team strengths.

4. We don't have a goal scoring striker that suits the club bar Sturridge. Daniel can't even get a game in. We still haven't replaced "SAS". We brought in Lambert, then Balotelli*, then Benteke. For some tactical genius / greatest manager to ever manage the club, Brendan Rodgers didn't exactly know how to build a squad, did he? Which is ironic after his attitude in throwing Andy Carroll out of the club for being a "target man". Yeah, he wanted Sanchez, but Alexis PUBLICLY REJECTED us in JULY. He had more than a month to find another target and instead went with BALOTELLI. And then used him as a scapegoat playing him out of position.

*Mario ain't a target man, but Rodgers was playing him as one.

5. Now, I understand you like your typical "tall striker's" but Benteke doesn't fit in. And they never have really worked for Liverpool since the Premier League era begun. (Both Heskey and Crouch were solid but were never really "good enough".) Firminho (and Coutinho) will prove their worth next season when they have a mobile forward infront of them. Everyone in our final third has been crap because there's no chemistry there.

McAgger said it above, and I've stated it 1,000 times, we don't have "quality" in this squad, we have a bunch of passengers that are hard workers. And that's not good enough.

Good post RA. I'm pretty much in that same boat.

The squad assembling during the 3.5 years under Rodgers is why we're in this dire situation. Hell you could include Kenny+Comolli era in there too, as well as the Owl for that matter. Recruitment has been so bad for the longest time. We've got the occasional lucky hit Luisito, Studger, Phil, Raul, etc but as a whole it's been horrendous.

Benteke is comfortable with the ball at his feet and can dribble a bit. He's not clumsy.

Our attacking problems, the same attacking problems, go back to when Benteke wasn't even at the club. We struggled this exact same way all of last season, too. The problem hasn't been and isn't in who plays the CF. It's what happens as a unit and how we create attacks in general. Too much standing still - by everyone - too much casual jogging about, players getting to useless positions and crowding small spaces. Rodgers couldn't solve it and so far Klopp hasn't done anything to solve it.

And when we look at a team like Arsenal and compare Benteke to Giroud - which I think is a fairly good comparison - how much is Giroud involved in build-up play to begin with? The answer is, not very much at all. He's up there in and around the box, looking to finish off attacking moves and bounce on opportunities. And that's all he needs to do, because that's his job. He doesn't have to be making a crazy amount of runs or a one-on-one dribbling threat. Arsenal's attack - usually - works. Which means that it's the other players who do the build-up and Giroud is the natural goalscorer to finish off moves. That's what we should be asking from Benteke as well. But instead you lot are jumping to the usual lazy conclusion that "we're not scoring, our striker is useless". You seem to insist that Benteke needs to do everything, create and score and press and pass and steal and run and bake a cake. Suarez was like that and Aguero can be a bit like that, but those are world-class players which are a luxury we rarely have. Most of the strikers in the Premier League are there to put away the chances that the team creates. Our team isn't creating. And the argument that "our team isn't creating because we cannot create for Benteke" is simply wrong. We have exactly the same problems as before him, we have them now when he's not playing and we could have Sturridge there and wouldn't play much better before we solve the bigger issue of attacking cluelessly as a unit.

Because once again we had target men starting last season. Lambert and Balotelli were both used as target man by Rodgers. Borini was just shit so he didn't make a difference regardless. We went on that 10 game winning streak in December-January because Sterling was starting as a CF in front of Coutinho, Lallana, and usually Markovic. There was a fluidity in our play again when we made that change.

I do agree with you that the problem is also with the unit behind the forward. Lallana for example, has zero production regardless of anything. He's just a poor player. Downing 2.0 with slightly better technical abilities. Ibe is way too young and is production is also shit to be warranty too many minutes for a club like Liverpool at his age. Milner is bang average.

Now Coutinho and Firmino for me are actually good enough footballers quality wise. But they are victims of playing with a CF that just doesn't work. How often do you see Benteke running in behind to either open space for the AMs or actually try to get open for a through ball.

Coutinho looked amazing that season he had SAS in front of him. He looked amazing when partnered with Sturridge the season we bought them together. Last season he was our best  but his production was limited because of lump CF's who wouldn't be on the same page as him.  Bobby has also thrived in the same system at Hoffenheim, free flowing attack with Kevin Volland.

Benteke is not a bad player. Same as Carroll wasn't a terrible player. They just aren't gonna work for us. We don't play like West Ham. We don't play like Villa. We could never play like them regardless. We don't have the players to play like that.

Rodgers is a *bleep* idiot for signing Benteke. Every single person and his cat knew Benteke this would be the problem when were linked with Benteke and guess what we have that exact problem.

Don't call me James wrote:Because once again we had target men starting last season. Lambert and Balotelli were both used as target man by Rodgers. Borini was just shit so he didn't make a difference regardless. We went on that 10 game winning streak in December-January because Sterling was starting as a CF in front of Coutinho, Lallana, and usually Markovic. There was a fluidity in our play again when we made that change.

I do agree with you that the problem is also with the unit behind the forward. Lallana for example, has zero production regardless of anything. He's just a poor player. Downing 2.0 with slightly better technical abilities. Ibe is way too young and is production is also shit to be warranty too many minutes for a club like Liverpool at his age. Milner is bang average.

Now Coutinho and Firmino for me are actually good enough footballers quality wise. But they are victims of playing with a CF that just doesn't work. How often do you see Benteke running in behind to either open space for the AMs or actually try to get open for a through ball.

Coutinho looked amazing that season he had SAS in front of him. He looked amazing when partnered with Sturridge the season we bought them together. Last season he was our best  but his production was limited because of lump CF's who wouldn't be on the same page as him.  Bobby has also thrived in the same system at Hoffenheim, free flowing attack with Kevin Volland.

Benteke is not a bad player. Same as Carroll wasn't a terrible player. They just aren't gonna work for us. We don't play like West Ham. We don't play like Villa. We could never play like them regardless. We don't have the players to play like that.

Rodgers is a *bleep* idiot for signing Benteke. Every single person and his cat knew Benteke this would be the problem when were linked with Benteke and guess what we have that exact problem.

the reason west ham and villa get good use out of players like carrol and benteke is its the easy way to play. so it makes me wonder why we try and fail to play complicated football week after week only to get beat by the simple ball in the box. why don't we get a few goals and wins playing it the easy way. and before you or anyone say we don't have the players for that we do have the players for that. any player that plays at prem lge level should be able to cross a ball. its one of the easiest things to do. what klopp needs to do is start by making the defence tight. then work on other things.

Art Morte wrote:Benteke is comfortable with the ball at his feet and can dribble a bit. He's not clumsy.

Our attacking problems, the same attacking problems, go back to when Benteke wasn't even at the club. We struggled this exact same way all of last season, too. The problem hasn't been and isn't in who plays the CF. It's what happens as a unit and how we create attacks in general. Too much standing still - by everyone - too much casual jogging about, players getting to useless positions and crowding small spaces. Rodgers couldn't solve it and so far Klopp hasn't done anything to solve it.

And when we look at a team like Arsenal and compare Benteke to Giroud - which I think is a fairly good comparison - how much is Giroud involved in build-up play to begin with? The answer is, not very much at all. He's up there in and around the box, looking to finish off attacking moves and bounce on opportunities. And that's all he needs to do, because that's his job. He doesn't have to be making a crazy amount of runs or a one-on-one dribbling threat. Arsenal's attack - usually - works. Which means that it's the other players who do the build-up and Giroud is the natural goalscorer to finish off moves. That's what we should be asking from Benteke as well. But instead you lot are jumping to the usual lazy conclusion that "we're not scoring, our striker is useless". You seem to insist that Benteke needs to do everything, create and score and press and pass and steal and run and bake a cake. Suarez was like that and Aguero can be a bit like that, but those are world-class players which are a luxury we rarely have. Most of the strikers in the Premier League are there to put away the chances that the team creates. Our team isn't creating. And the argument that "our team isn't creating because we cannot create for Benteke" is simply wrong. We have exactly the same problems as before him, we have them now when he's not playing and we could have Sturridge there and wouldn't play much better before we solve the bigger issue of attacking cluelessly as a unit.

Benteke is not comfortable with the ball in tight spaces, no.
Benteke does not open space with his runs.
Benteke is not even doing a good enough job on holding onto the ball.
He does not fit into this side.

People go on about Rodgers wanting Benteke at Dortmund (to replace Lewand) but people forget the fact that he was OVERLOOKED. He scouted him, and chose not to get him. He doesn't suit Klopp's way.

McAgger addressed our issues last year, but the whole thing goes back to bad management for a while now. It's exactly why our transfer windows have gone to shit as well.

We replaced Torres with Carroll and struggled.
We replaced Carroll with Sturridge and finished top 2.
We still haven't replaced Sturridge (when his injuries were well known and were covered up by the fact that we had Sterling's pace in the final third and Suarez being Suarez) adequately enough; Benteke is not the man.

It's like going from wanting to buy a ferrari and buying a, I don't know, land rover. They're two different types of cars.

At the end of the day, Liverpool NEEDS to play a mobile striker. It's the only way we've ever been successful. We're not suited to a tall man up top or we just hoof it forward. It's been the same story for 16 years now (and probably longer, that's only how long I've actually watched us play consistently). We don't have the creativity or quality in the squad to play triangles with the likes of Lallana, Milner, Hendo and Ibe.

Now Arsenal fans can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Giroud IS involved in the build up and he actually PRESSES the opposition. Which is KEY. Arsenal also has A LOT more quality than us and a better spread in the final third. They all have chemistry with each other. We have 4 players all wanting to play the same role, and all 4 players not knowing what to do with the final ball. Arsenal have class; Liverpool do not. That's not Klopp's fault. That's management's before his. He can only work with what he's got. You can say he's doing no better than Rodgers, whatever, results can prove you right, but at the end of the day he's working with an average squad that Rodgers assembled. He's not a miracle worker. You can't just expect us to go from being a mid-table squad to a top 4 spot over night.

You're right that he can only work with what he's got. I've said it a few times but Rodgers' downfall wasn't his tactical ability it was his inability to identify the right players that would come in and make his system or philosophy a success (this was in hindsight of course, and has that awful asterisk of the transfer committee and a few failed signings that really might have changed his fortunes).

Klopp is now the one that is tasked with trying to really assemble or graduate a team that can work together under his philosophies and tactics. That's where he will really make his mark at Liverpool because, yes, he is a talented tactician and a great man-manager but that was all true of Rodgers before everyone turned on him as well (and this was propped up by high profile players even after they left). I don't blame Rodgers solely for the debacle that has been our transfer dealings for...a long time, but he certainly played a big part in his time with the club (especially in not accepting a DoF which caused this ridiculously stupid committee to be formed in the first place, which is probably his biggest failing at the club tbh).

Which has led to this, of which some I agree with: http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/jan/18/liverpool-jurgen-klopp-transfer-committee

“It’s difficult because you want a player in but if the player is not on the list, you’d have to take someone,” Rodgers said. “There’s no other option, you give it a go.”

...

The issue at Liverpool is a transfer committee that has simply failed on its record. The dominant personality is said to be Mike Gordon, a well-respected US stockbroker who is, according to John Henry, “by far FSG America’s most knowledgeable person with regard to soccer”. Footballers, though, are not stocks. Buying young players with resale in mind does not amount to team-building. “They were thinking this is a £50m player we could maybe get for £16m,” Rodgers said of the signing of Mario Balotelli.

Honestly, the best thing that Liverpool could do at the moment in fixing that is scrapping the committee and bringing in a reputable and successful DoF to work with Klopp (or at least replace the members of the committee given the obvious failures so far). Either way though Klopp has final say and I think that he has the clout and personality to outright refuse players from the committee if he doesn't like any of them and he'll work with what he has or bring up youth...so I'm optimistic that he'll be able to fully implement his vision on this team and if his record at Dortmund is any indication of his squad building ability he will, hopefully, be very successful in the future with Liverpool regardless of how this season goes.