Re: Next Manager thread

[El Gunner]

Are you trying to say that the players will look at his salary and not take him seriously because they earn way more?

[Hapless_Hans]

Are you trying to say that the players will look at his salary and not take him seriously because they earn way more?

I'm not trying to say it's that straightforward. It does have significance though, how much someone earns.

[Hapless_Hans]

For us fans, yes, it's highly unusual. We judge managers on their past records and their accomplishments and Arteta obviously has none of that, being a coach with only two years worth of experience. It doesn't make sense to us because there's information that we don't have about him that Arsenal clearly do have that's informing the decision.

It's not a satisfactory answer in any sense but they know something about him we don't. If the process has been as thorough as reported then they must have spoken with plenty of people and Arteta himself at some point, if they didn't already know everything about him. They know he has leadership qualities, and I'd imagine they're confident he has a fair amount of skill as well. The people behind the appointment are knowledgeable, experienced and well-connected, and, well, we just have to put faith in that.

Another thing though.
As much as it's true that the people involved in the appointment know many things about Arteta that we cannot know- the main point remains, that is that there are some very crucial things about Arteta as a manager that they know just as little about as we do. That is, things connected with how he  does actually perform as a manager, in that very situation. I don't think that situation can be simulated, or his performance in such a situation to a high degree deduced from other things. They can't know the first thing about that, just as we common folks can't.

[urbaNRoots]

I don't think this is very complicated.

Arteta has always been number one choice and will be because he is Gazidis' puppet. If Arteta is a success Gazidis will get credited for giving him a chance, if he fails then Arteta is an easy target.

If a more experienced coach was appointed then responsibility would eventually fall to him and Kroenke for not spending enough but having an Arteta as manager means that people will always blame the coach's inexperience/ability instead.

[boyzis]

why not benitez? U guys forgot the craftest manager out there. I mean what do arsenal need someone who knows where to play a player according to his attributes.

[Jay29]

Another thing though.
As much as it's true that the people involved in the appointment know many things about Arteta that we cannot know- the main point remains, that is that there are some very crucial things about Arteta as a manager that they know just as little about as we do. That is, things connected with how he  does actually perform as a manager, in that very situation. They can't know the first thing about that, just as we common folks can't.

This is true. They are essentially going off a hunch, much like signing a random young player with little first team experience. Or it might be more like signing a graduate straight of university because he got good grades and references.

It's a tremendous leap of faith. No getting around that fact.

The way I see it, Arteta wasn't the "man" to begin with. Well-liked and in the thinking, yes, but not the first choice. Had Allegri been available, or had Enrique's demands been more reasonable, they would have been at the top of the list. I've seen enough good sources reporting on those two to believe that they were wanted. But just because we want them doesn't mean we're going to get them.

So they go down the list and then decide if they go for someone who's okay but not spectacular for a couple of years - the safe pair of hands options - or gamble on someone they believe has great potential in the hopes of a big pay-off. It might sound logical to go with the safe options so things don't get worse (and could even go well, of course) but you can't guarantee a top guy is going to be available at the right time.

I don't know if I'm fully convinced but in my mind there has to be a reason why they wouldn't go for an experienced option if one were available.

[Jay29]

I don't think this is very complicated.

Arteta has always been number one choice and will be because he is Gazidis' puppet. If Arteta is a success Gazidis will get credited for giving him a chance, if he fails then Arteta is an easy target.

If a more experienced coach was appointed then responsibility would eventually fall to him and Kroenke for not spending enough but having an Arteta as manager means that people will always blame the coach's inexperience/ability instead.

This doesn't work though when everyone knows Gazidis was behind the hire. If Arteta doesn't do well, it's Gazidis who people will be after.

He's staking his reputation on this appointment. If he was looking to safeguard himself he'd surely go for someone more reliable than someone who has never managed before.

[rincon]

@jay that post makes it seem as if after Luis and Allegri there is no one else remotely close so you jump to Arteta. Which if we are being serious, what about Luis Enrique is so spectacular? There are plenty of coaches of Luis Enrique's level, plenty of a higher level, and plenty of a slightly lower level.

That it was only Allegri, Luis Enrique, or Arteta seems like a terrible list to put together. Those are 3 extremely different coaches and other similar ones can be got anyway if Luis Enrique isn't willing to join.

If the board wanted to get someone like Luis, they can still do it. If they instead go for Arteta it's not because they were denied by LE, it's because that what whoever is in charge wanted all along.

[urbaNRoots]

I don't think this is very complicated.

Arteta has always been number one choice and will be because he is Gazidis' puppet. If Arteta is a success Gazidis will get credited for giving him a chance, if he fails then Arteta is an easy target.

If a more experienced coach was appointed then responsibility would eventually fall to him and Kroenke for not spending enough but having an Arteta as manager means that people will always blame the coach's inexperience/ability instead.

This doesn't work though when everyone knows Gazidis was behind the hire. If Arteta doesn't do well, it's Gazidis who people will be after.

He's staking his reputation on this appointment. If he was looking to safeguard himself he'd surely go for someone more reliable than someone who has never managed before.

Gazidis is Kroenke's man, he's basically unsackable. I don't think he worries about his reputation (which isn't great, even now).

Gazidis' job is to protect Kroenke, not himself.

By appointing a young/inexperienced manager, if it fails, he's making sure the narrative is "We need a new manager" not "We need to spend"-- which is the narrative it would be if we appointed someone who has previously had success with a different squad.

[Jay29]

@jay that post makes it seem as if after Luis and Allegri there is no one else remotely close so you jump to Arteta. Which if we are being serious, what about Luis Enrique is so spectacular? There are plenty of coaches of Luis Enrique's level, plenty of a higher level, and plenty of a slightly lower level.

That it was only Allegri, Luis Enrique, or Arteta seems like a terrible list to put together. Those are 3 extremely different coaches and other similar ones can be got anyway if Luis Enrique isn't willing to join.

If the board wanted to get someone like Luis, they can still do it. If they instead go for Arteta it's not because they were denied by LE, it's because that what whoever is in charge wanted all along.

I'm not privy to Arsenal's shortlist but I'm pretty sure they did not go from Allegri and Enrique straight to Arteta. Several names have come up, and common sense tell us that there are plenty of experienced and qualified managers around the club can consider. I'm not denying that at all.

I'm just trying to rationalise the thinking behind it with the limited information that's around. It's obvious that somebody at the club really likes Arteta and has pushed him as a option. However, I don't believe that rules out Arsenal looking at those other options and perhaps deciding that the risk of Arteta has potentially a greater pay-off.

By appointing a young/inexperienced manager, if it fails, he's making sure the narrative is "We need a new manager" not "We need to spend"-- which is the narrative it would be if we appointed someone who has previously had success with a different squad.

I don't see how people complaining we need a manager would be any better for Gazidis and Kroenke than people complaining we need to spend more money. Both are bad for them.

That we can sit here and blame Gazidis for this potential appointment already is surely proof alone that he's not going to escape blame if Arteta flops. Neither he or Kroenke benefit in any way from making a poor appointment - how experienced that appointment is is irrelevant.

[Hapless_Hans]

Jay, do you even think that Arteta is as clear the favourite as it's being made out in the media these days?
I ask because I'm always suspicious of "favourites emerging" in media reports, as I suspect media reports themselves have a dynamic that feeds and develops from media reports themselves, and thus a selection process of their own lol, that must not necessarily mirror the actual selection process at the actual club.

[Unique]

why have arsenal not thought about rafa. if klopp left liverpool tomorrow and i had to pick rafa or arteta its rafa all day tbh.

[Hapless_Hans]

It's a tremendous leap of faith. No getting around that fact.
.

I can't deny it is intriguing, of course.
The unknown can always contain more promise

Also, I don't know how exactly to put it, but there is something strange, and maybe even slightly off-putting, about thinking about an establishment coach like Ancelotti, or even Allegri, hell even someone like Pep, taking over at Arsenal now.

I think that is because the long tenure of Wenger and it's fundamental entanglement, of one manager, one figure, with the club, makes the connection with another well known figure frm a different context seem strangely out of place. Anyone else get what I mean?
In that logic, it makes entirely more sense to grow your own successor, out of material that belongs to the clay of the club already. A bit Pep apprenticeship, sure, but Arteta would be a quintessentially 'Arsenal' manager, if it would work out.

I think though, realistically, that also entails a reason why I think that no matter who is appointed, trouble may be ahead for reasons that have nothing to do with anyone's individual shortcomings.

[Jay29]

Jay, do you even think that Arteta is as clear the favourite as it's being made out in the media these days?
I ask because I'm always suspicious of "favourites emerging" in media reports, as I suspect media reports themselves have a dynamic that feeds and develops from media reports themselves, and thus a selection process of their own lol, that must not necessarily mirror the actual selection process at the actual club.

I'm a little wary since it seems he's become the clear favourite in the absence of other names in the press. He could well be the frontrunner, but just because the press doesn't know about anyone else doesn't mean there aren't other candidates.

All I'm sure of is that he's under consideration. David Ornstein said as much (his last update on the situation, incidentally) and nobody is more reliable for Arsenal news than him. His last update was five days ago and he said no agreement had been reached on who it will be and negotiations were still in an early stage. So until he updates again, I'll assume that we're still in this stage.

I think that is because the long tenure of Wenger and it's fundamental entanglement, of one manager, one figure, with the club, makes the connection with another well known figure frm a different context seem strangely out of place. Anyone else get what I mean?
In that logic, it makes entirely more sense to grow your own successor, out of material that belongs to the clay of the club already. A bit Pep apprenticeship, sure, but Arteta would be a quintessentially 'Arsenal' manager, if it would work out.

One thing the clubs loves to talk about a lot is "values". Wenger was loved for his values and principles as much as for his skill as a coach and I think that's become a big part of Arsenal as a brand. If we bring in a guy who doesn't seem compatible with that then yeah, it'd seem weird.

I don't think many top coaches want to go to a club and be confined by a set of pre-existing values. They'd rather go about things their own ways. Maybe that's a factor behind not being able to get one. If we believe reports about Enrique for example, he wanted £200m+ to re-shape the squad, but Arsenal don't like to be associated with that sort of spending and would rather not do it (this is a Wenger thing - historically Arsenal have never been shy of outspending the competition).  

why have arsenal not thought about rafa. if klopp left liverpool tomorrow and i had to pick rafa or arteta its rafa all day tbh

The criteria outlined by the club was someone young, played attractive attacking football, and was happy to invest in and develop youth. None of which sounds like Benitez, much as I respect his work.

[RealGunner]

According to more guess work by papers, Cazorla could join Arteta in his coaching staff.

[Great Leader Sprucenuce]

Jay the last part is very much Benitez just saying

The rest isn't though

[RealGunner]

I actually won't be against Rafa. Really respect him.

[Great Leader Sprucenuce]

I actually won't be against Rafa. Really respect him.

Tbh I could have seen it happening if it wasn't what Jay said.

Quite obvious you are looking for someone younger and I suspected that would be the case as soon as I read Wenger was leaving.

[RealGunner]

Yea the board want to do a Wenger 2.0 with the new manager. Someone who can create another legacy and be around for a long long time.

Can't see that work because football isn't the same as it was back in the days but that's what they are going for and Arteta for them fits the bill.

[Great Leader Sprucenuce]

I understand why but I feel like there's probably better options for that than Arteta tbh.

[Sina]

Rafa as an interim midway through season to help us win EL would have been nice but we wouldn't have sacked wenger like that
Now i dont see the point of hiring someone like him

[Sina]

woudnt be surprised if Arteta turn out to be more pragmatic than expected
our squad is lacking so much not in terms of quality but certain profiles

wonder how he would use Özil as well

[Chumlum]

Benitez wouldn't be the world's most exciting signing imo, but he would be a pretty wise one. I am a little surprised his name hasn't come up in more articles about the next manager. Also surprised that Ancelotti didn't figure more heavily, even just in the bs clickbait rumors.

As for Arteta ... my own thoughts are as follows

1. Arteta the individual is great. Lot of respect for him and his service to the club. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if he (eventually) became a very good manager.
2. Arteta as a managerial option right now seems ludicrous. Even if the club hierarchy has better information than we do (and they do), it's still a huge, huge risk.
3. THAT SAID, if Arteta is appointed, I will give him my support and an appropriate amount of leeway because I will want him to succeed for the sake of Arsenal. No matter who comes in, there will be some rough patches in transition, so I won't dismiss him or any other manager on the basis of his first bad result or two. (Some fans will.)

[Jay29]

Ornstein's latest on the situation, from the BBC (I've bolded the interesting parts):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44165995

Arsenal's priority from the moment Wenger announced he would be leaving at the end of the season after nearly 22 years in charge has been to lead a comprehensive recruitment process.

Wenger came close to departing a year ago and Arsenal's subsequent travails made it increasingly likely he would go this summer, so they are sure to have been surveying the managerial market for some time.

In the interim period that market has changed - and so has the make-up of the Gunners' hierarchy - but they would have had a clear idea of who they wanted to talk with.

While it is possible that discreet scouting, due diligence and enquiries to establish potential interest and availability may have been conducted while Wenger's future was undecided, out of respect I do not think any significant moves took place behind his back.

That meant the club missed the chance to pursue a coach they admire in Thomas Tuchel. The German viewed Arsenal as his perfect destination but could not afford to wait until the Wenger situation was resolved and potentially lose the opportunity to join Paris St-Germain.

The problems between Tuchel and Arsenal's head of recruitment Sven Mislintat from their time together at Borussia Dortmund were repairable, but Tuchel accepted PSG's offer to replace Unai Emery to end any idea of him joining the Gunners.

Whether or not the reported interest in Germany boss Joachim Low was genuine, it would never have materialised because he was always planning to sign a new contract with the national team.

Meanwhile, and for various reasons, the likes of Diego Simeone of Atletico Madrid, former Barcelona manager Luis Enrique, three-time Champions League winner Carlo Ancelotti and Celtic's Brendan Rodgers were never seriously considered.

There is, though, said to have been enormous interest in the vacancy and after a long list was reduced to a shortlist, Juventus coach Allegri, Manchester City assistant Arteta and New York City boss Patrick Vieira emerged as the leading contenders.

Arteta and Vieira were definitely spoken to and - whether directly or indirectly - Allegri was too.

In this tightly guarded process it is unclear if - and to what extent - there was contact with Julian Nagelsmann of Hoffenheim, Belgium assistant Thierry Henry, outgoing PSG boss Emery and Monaco's Leonardo Jardim.

What we do know is that Arsenal have held formal interviews and in-depth negotiations.

Their hope is to make the right decision, rather than a quick one. They insist the new man will continue the values instilled by Wenger, play exciting and progressive football, represent Arsenal well and integrate young players.

Arteta is the frontrunner - he wants the job and there is a feeling among staff that he is set to get it - but while it would seem Vieira has drifted out of contention, whispers persist that Allegri remains in the mix.

Some bits on the club's management structure:

Contract and transfer negotiator Dick Law and chief scout Steve Rowley had already moved on before Wenger's sidekick Boro Primorac, first-team coach Neil Banfield, goalkeeping coach Gerry Peyton, fitness coach Tony Colbert, equipment manager Paul Johnson and head of medical services Colin Lewin were all released.

There have also been major structural and intellectual developments at the youth training base at Hale End and the senior one at London Colney as the hierarchy attempt to transform Arsenal back into a competitive force.

Contrary to popular opinion, it is consistently reiterated by the club that American owner Stan Kroenke is desperate for success and it might not be coincidental that a lot of the changes have come as his son, Josh - a fellow director - has spent a greater amount of time around Arsenal, become a more visible presence and exerted increasing influence.

In a divergence from the previous regime - Wenger retained total power over football matters and built the surrounding structure around himself - Arsenal will now adopt a continental model. The day-to-day power will be held by the leadership group, they will define the structure and a head coach must slot into it.

The search for Wenger's successor is the responsibility of Gazidis, aided by Sanllehi and Mislintat, and they will present their recommendation to the board for approval; Fahmy is handling all contract matters; and Burgess is carrying out most of the technical changes, particular on the medical side.

On relationship between fans and board:

A prospective concern for Arsenal's hierarchy is that with power comes accountability and the removal of Wenger strips them of a shield that had provided such robust protection for so long.

That is one of several reasons why it is so important to get this appointment right.

The relationship between the fans and hierarchy is not good. If this goes badly and the supporters are further angered and alienated, then trouble looms.

On transfers and budget:

We are told Arsenal have a budget for the summer transfer window of around £50m.

Of course, that can be bolstered by the proceeds of any sales but, if true, it is meagre in comparison to their rivals.

So 'big-name' signings are unrealistic and they will have to be creative and maximise the connections and experience that Mislintat and Sanllehi bring.

There is a perception that a lack of finance is among the factors contributing to an apparent struggle to lure a manager of Allegri's calibre, though Arsenal reject this and are adamant their job is one of the most attractive in world football.

It is understood player recruitment was an area discussed with interviewed candidates and therefore any signings made before or after the appointment will supposedly have the incoming manager's blessing.

As per the continental model, Arsenal's new head coach will contribute to recruitment decisions and retain the power of veto, but unlike in the past he will not be the only voice that matters.

Mislintat will lead the search and pursue agreed targets, with Sanllehi charged with closing the deals.

[Jay29]

Short Tweet version; appointment could be next week.

Arsenal close to appointing boss, next week likely. Start of continental model: head coach slots into predefined structure, will contribute to recruitment decisions & have veto. Transfer targets were discussed with interviewees, pre-sales budget ~£50m #AFC https://t.co/dNG5Txudmo

— David Ornstein (@bbcsport_david) May 18, 2018

[Hapless_Hans]

Alright then. Now we know.

Mislintat is basically chief squad planner now. Probably even more so than Reschke's 'technical director' role at Bayern 2014-2017. Interesting.

It sure sounds like it will Arteta. Still sounds bizarre to me, especially with the "extensive search" and " due diligence" process. It just seems strange you would conduct an extensive search and due diligence but would end up with Arteta rather than, say, Jardim.
At least it sounds like the diligent search is superimposed with a strong desire of appointing some Arsenal DNA young fresh faced prospect, otherwise you would not arrive there.

I kind of understand why Ancelotti would be decided against tbh (even if Daniel Taylor strongly pleads for him here https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2018/may/06/carlo-ancelotti-arsenal-manager ), but I don't really get the sniffing at Enrique. Are we really going to pretend that Enrique is not to be taken seriously as a top coach, after his immense success at Barca? I think of all the clubs looking for managers, Arsenal and Enrique might have been the best fit.

Another thing. It seems like Maurizio Sarri has very recently become potentially available. I think it's very strange and hard to believe Napoli would push him out tbh, but he might be on the market.

He should cut right in there onto the top of the list at Arsenal IMO.
Arteta is a nice thought and all, and maybe in lack of other candidates that really feel right this kind of gamble appointment can be dared.
But with a manager of Sarri's proven capability, for exciting, dominant, beautiful and successful football achieved on a modest budget, he should not be left for a rival club like Chelsea, of all clubs, to pick up. If you wanted Tuchel, Sarri would be absolutely the next best thing.

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