Refdrid watch 16-17

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Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Harmonica on Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:47 pm

Every season in La Liga Real Madrid gets helped relatively to everybody else by the refs, as former referees state "Most refs in La Liga are Real Madrid fans". So this is the thread to follow how much refs help Real Madrid, relatively, this season in La Liga.

Round 2



Morata two yards offside at 0-0, result 2-1, points gained from refs 2.

Real Refdrid points 6 (+2)
Real Madrid points 4

Also as this picture confirms logically with 99% accuracy how the linesman is Real Madrid supporter, I'll also identify referees and classify them as Real Madrid supporters, which should help betting quite a lot, so gl will get more money from Real Madrid, and Barcelona matches, on average.

Round 4

Ramos handball and second yellow, and red not given against Espanyol at 0-0, by the referee Alejandro José Hernández Hernández. He cave the exact same handball for Umtiti/Barcelona just few weeks back vs Sevilla.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsqMkGTWcAA9AXH.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqElFxIkAGM

Round 13

Alejandro José Hernández Hernández, already marked as Real Madrid referee, gave fake penalty at the beginning of the game at 0-0. Game ended 2-1 vs Gijon.

https://twitter.com/adrilamas11/status/802533562847207424?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Round 18

Ramos scored 2-0 which eventually was a winner, and which was a clear offside, linesman in perfect position. I'll chech the identity of this linesman and his history and then I'll determinate if he's corrupt.



Round 23

Gil Manzano, already marked as Real Madrid referee, again gave phantom penalty vs. Villarreal when Madrid were 2-1 down.



Round 26

Mateu Lahoz doesn't give obvious red card for Real Madrid goal keeper at 0-0 against Betis, game ended 2-1.



Real Refdrid points 62 (+13)
Real Madrid points 49

Marked as Real Refdrid referees:

- Alejandro José Hernández Hernández
- Jaime Latre
- Fernandez Borbalan
- Ignacio Iglesias
- Mateu Lahoz
- Juan Martinez (reference BAR-RSO CDR 2nd leg)
- Gil Manzano (reference BAR-ATL CDR 2nd leg)
- Cloz Gomez (reference ALA-BAR La Liga)


Last edited by Harmonica on Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:40 pm; edited 17 times in total

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:05 pm

the pass was intended for Asensio on the other side of the screen, Morata is offside but passive



you dummy

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by jibers on Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:08 pm

I think under the new offside laws it should have been a FK. Moratas position interferes with the GK and defenders positioning.

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Cruijf on Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:10 pm

Passive Laughing

I can't tell from that angle if he pushed his defender but at the very least he made the defender commit which is enough to say he affected the play. Even as little as the presence of an attacker causing a defender to clear the ball is considered influencing the play so that is a very clear cut decision.

I do agree though that Harmonicas picture is laughably out of context and it was a much more difficult decision from the assistant and understandable mistake than he made it out to be.

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Harmonica on Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:11 pm

Moving to the ball, blocking/tribbing defender is far from being passive.

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by guest7 on Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:13 pm

Yeah nevermind the penelty denied by refcelona

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:33 pm

@Cruijf wrote:Passive Laughing

I can't tell from that angle if he pushed his defender but at the very least he made the defender commit which is enough to say he affected the play. Even as little as the presence of an attacker causing a defender to clear the ball is considered influencing the play so that is a very clear cut decision.

I do agree though that Harmonicas picture is laughably out of context and it was a much more difficult decision from the assistant and understandable mistake than he made it out to be.


I'm not sure.
Usually I'm of the opinion that far more so called 'passive' offside position should be flagged active due to interference with the opponent

However, here, the pass is clearly not aimed toward Morata; I'd argue that Morata is clearly not moving to reach the ball but rather calmly moving onside (else his stride would be different). He's not tripping or pushing the defender either, instead the defender for no discernible reason stumles into Morata and falls to the ground.
I'd say that stopping the attack due to offside here would be a very harsh call.
I really don't think that's a decision opposition fans should be raging, or even arguing about.

As for @harmonica, here we have another vivid illustration why, no matter how many numbers, figures and images he produces as 'evidence', he will never convince anyone of the truthfulness and accurateness of his claims.

Because he's full of shit, not trustworthy, ridiculously biased and everyone knows it, it's glaringly obvious.
He's cooking numbers, omitting facts or evidence that would counter his preconcluded outcome, the latter of which is determined by his obsessions.

He is manipulating and falsifying 'evidence'.
He is the posterchild of how NOT to work scientifically, with statistics, with arguments purporting to be based on facts.

He's an embarrassment to the very notion of reason, a crass caricature from an educational comedy about the fallacies of scientists.

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Lucifer on Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:51 pm

agree with harmonica
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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by halamadrid2 on Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:00 pm

We should've had 2 penalties this game. One blatant trip on James and the Celta player doing the exact same foul on Bale as Ramos did in the Supercopa. Looks like this is going to be another season where we are denied clear penalties

Morata was no in play for that goal until the rebound happened. How can he have been block the view of the goalie from where he was? And he didn't even run towards the ball. Claiming that to be offside is the definition of reaching
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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Pedram on Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:02 pm

Agreed with Hans.

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Don't call me James on Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:02 pm

Harmonia is right for once. Offside rule has changed. And under the new rules Morata is 100% off.

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:06 pm

@Don't call me James wrote:Harmonia is right for once. Offside rule has changed. And under the new rules Morata is 100% off.


Please elaborate how the offside rule has changed and when.

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Doc on Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:43 pm

Morata would have been offside if the pass was meant for him (it wasn't), he interfered with the play (he didn't) or if the ball deflected off the falling defender and he touched it. Personally, Asensio should have been yellow carded for that God awful attempt of a finish in my humble opinion.

What is incredibly odd is that the defender in question, who clearly tripped on his own thoughts, didn't feign injury. I mean, it's good on him not to resort to such things but that really is to be expected in La Liga. Ramos and Pique would have been bawling in agony, Busquets would be clinically dead from that fall, every Atleti player would have dived, etc.

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:50 pm

@Doc wrote:Morata would have been offside if the pass was meant for him (it wasn't), he interfered with the play (he didn't) or if the ball deflected off the falling defender and he touched it. Personally, Asensio should have been yellow carded for that God awful attempt of a finish in my humble opinion.


That's not quite accurate Doc. It's not just 'interfering with play' (=touching the ball) but also 'interfering with an opponent' that makes an offside position become a violation.

If he ran towards a ball not meant for him, drawing a defender with him, blocking view etc., such stuff, that's an offside violation.
Always was, nothing 'new' about this.
In this case it's very arguable whether he interferes with the defender. It could be argued he does since the defender somehow falls while tripping over, or next to lol, Morata, but actually Morata does not do anything to the defender and neither does he go for the ball.

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Doc on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:00 pm

Yeah, to me, interfering with the play also contains "interfering with an opponent" but you're correct to point that out. Still, I don't see Morata doing either. Now, I'm personally surprised he wasn't flagged for it since it's La Liga. Also surprised he was not called for a foul since it is once again La Liga. However, this is the same ref that allowed Casemiro walk scot-free after literally pushing Pablo Hernandez in the chest.

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by CBarca on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:02 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Don't call me James wrote:Harmonia is right for once. Offside rule has changed. And under the new rules Morata is 100% off.


Please elaborate how the offside rule has changed and when.


Yeah I'm kind of confused, I haven't seen a change anywhere, but everyone keeps mentioning it.

Last season in the Premier League they stressed that being in an offside position is now an offense if that player makes a play for the ball (which is weird...because that's always been the law), but I haven't seen anything about it within the last year.

EDIT: My own personal opinion is that I would call it offside. I think Hans has a point about Morata, but the very fact that Morata is there in an offside position is why the defender gets distracted/somehow trips and doesn't intercept the ball to Asensio (which would have been a straightforward thing typically). Therefore, he's interfered with the play.

That being said, it's in a bit of a grey zone. I think if Morata was like, a yard farther offside to begin with...I wouldn't call it. As it stands though, I would call it.


Last edited by CBarca on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by jibers on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:06 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Don't call me James wrote:Harmonia is right for once. Offside rule has changed. And under the new rules Morata is 100% off.


Please elaborate how the offside rule has changed and when.


http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/9930438/the-offside-rule-change-explained-with-the-help-of-a-referee

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:09 pm

@CBarca wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Don't call me James wrote:Harmonia is right for once. Offside rule has changed. And under the new rules Morata is 100% off.


Please elaborate how the offside rule has changed and when.


Yeah I'm kind of confused, I haven't seen a change anywhere, but everyone keeps mentioning it.

Last season in the Premier League they stressed that being in an offside position is now an offense if that player makes a play for the ball (which is weird...because that's always been the law), but I haven't seen anything about it within the last year.


That's the thing. The rule was always there that 'interfering with an opponent' constitutes an offside offense.
Then after PL refs made repeated messes out of it the pundits decides to notice what the rule is.

That's why, the 'rules have changed' lol because they've now become aware of it. It's in line with modern physics tbh that a thing changes its nature when observed or not.

@doc, I added that because while you might have meant the same thing, the FIFA rules explicitly name those two distinct instances 'interfering with play' and '..opponents'

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:13 pm

@jibers wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Don't call me James wrote:Harmonia is right for once. Offside rule has changed. And under the new rules Morata is 100% off.


Please elaborate how the offside rule has changed and when.


http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/9930438/the-offside-rule-change-explained-with-the-help-of-a-referee


The 'interfering with an opponent' rule was already there, including blocking view, challenging an opponent for the ball etc., all they did was add another subcategory "making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball"

http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside.aspx


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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:30 pm

harmonica you are such a fraud, changing the pic in the OP after being exposed

anyway, Hans, i dont think Morata got in the way of the celta defender. It looks to me like the celta defender is already falling and just bumps into morata on his way down.

look at the third angle in this clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCqbmJYE2yc

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:38 pm

@Mr Nick09 wrote:harmonica you are such a fraud, changing the pic in the OP after being exposed

anyway, Hans, i dont think Morata got in the way of the celta defender. It looks to me like the celta defender is already falling and just bumps into morata on his way down.

look at the third angle in this clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCqbmJYE2yc


Yeah that's basically what I said - I can't see Morata doing much of anything besides moving onside at moderate speed. What that defender does is very strange

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by CBarca on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:41 pm

Except that the defender is continually pulled towards Morata to cover him. That's the only reason he's not instead covering the passing lane to Asensio. That's not exactly Morata's problem especially if Morata gets back onside, but as it stands, by being in an offside position when the pass was played, the defender has been pulled towards Morata and then when he tries to cover the passing lane, Morata gets in his way (you can't really argue that he gets in his way...he's right there). The offense is less pulling the defender towards him and more that once the pass is played (and Morata is offside) he's in the way, and he's certainly altered the play.

He's definitely altered the play by existing in an offside position as he was. Offside for me.

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:04 pm

@CBarca wrote:Except that the defender is continually pulled towards Morata to cover him. That's the only reason he's not instead covering the passing lane to Asensio. That's not exactly Morata's problem especially if Morata gets back onside, but as it stands, by being in an offside position when the pass was played, the defender has been pulled towards Morata and then when he tries to cover the passing lane, Morata gets in his way (you can't really argue that he gets in his way...he's right there). The offense is less pulling the defender towards him and more that once the pass is played (and Morata is offside) he's in the way, and he's certainly altered the play.

He's definitely altered the play by existing in an offside position as he was. Offside for me.


That's a reasonable case made for offside. As I said, instinctually I agree with you as for my feeling a striker practically always impacts the postitioning of the defenders.

But, one could counter that Morata does not do anything to draw the defender to him, he even stops towards it when the ball is played.

And the wording of the law is


Offside offence
A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:

interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or

interfering with an opponent by:

• preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or

• challenging an opponent for the ball or
• clearly attempting to play a ball which is close to him when this action  impacts on an opponent or
• making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball


or
• gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent
when it has:

rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar or an opponent

been deliberately saved by any opponent

'The bolded part is what would concern this situation. Is Morata doing any of that so that he's interfering with an opponent as layed out here?
He's not IMO. By the letter of the law that's hardly an offside offense, you would be hard pressed to describe any of what Morata does as an obvious action

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by CBarca on Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:42 pm

The thing is, you're using the offside rule as interpreted by the FA--an English organization, and adopted by the EPL. This is Spanish football. I don't know what the Liga BBVA language is for offside, so I defer to FIFA's rules, which are:

"While in an offside position, there are three things a player cannot do:
interfere with play
interfere with an opponent
gain an advantage by being in the offside position"

To me, you could argue that he's interfering with play or with an opponent.

I think that there is a case for both sides, definitely. I think if they called it offside it would be right. While that's my personal opinion, I don't think it would necessarily be wrong to keep the goal here because I think there is a legitimate case for it. I don't think this is a conspiracy at all. In fact, looking at the language as interpreted by the FA, I might be inclined to agree with you.

I appreciate your knowledge of the rules of the game though.

EDIT: Forget what I said, apparently the changes the FA took into account are in fact by FIFA. I would be inclined to agree with you then Hans, even if I think there is a case for both sides of the coin.

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:21 pm

There are a few more or less detailed formulations of this, but I took it from the official FIFA 'laws of the game 16/17' pdf

http://www.fifa.com/mm/Document/FootballDevelopment/Refereeing/02/79/92/44/Laws.of.the.Game.2016.2017_Neutral.pdf

As I said, I often have a similar feeling as you, that many times offside striker do slightly influence the positioning of defenders to the detriment of their ability to defend even if they don't do much.

But the law as it is, Morata's offside position and what he did in it was not an offense and the goal was legal.

About your point with the defender drawn to Morata, I mean, ultimately that's the crux defenders have to learn to deal with, no?
The very meaning of a defensive line means you have a position beyond which the striker is offside.

To move to the striker when he is offside is nonsensical as the striker is offside precisely because the defender is further ahead lol, you have to defend in the knowledge that the striker is offside and the trust he can't receive the ball legally.
The offside trap works by moving AWAY from the defender, not be drawn to him lol.

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Re: Refdrid watch 16-17

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