is a 3 man defense the best way to hide CR as he is getting old?

It''s kinda fascinating what's happening to Chelsea, for those watching, Conte deployed his 3 man defense and Chelsea as a team has exploded and became of the most dangerous in england. Even better, Hazard's attacking play has been great and it reached a high vs everton.

Tactically it's interesting how they are built, they have a lot of natural hardworking players around the pitch, and as i watch, i feel like the new formation is much better job at shielding and protecting Hazard from a defensive point of view, and to help him maximize his productivity on the ball. Not to say that he is not working hard, but it's definitely easier for him to defend when there is a naturally wide player already making the numbers in midfield and defense at the same time.

So taking that idea, and looking at how we play, with CR running less and less, and his new contract being announced, i feel like we have much to worry about. A player walking around a pitch is hard to hide, but i feel as though a 3 man defense can be a good way to hide and balance our team.

So we would essentially be going from say


to


in terms of personel, it's the same we are using, although i feel like the line of 4 in midfield and three at the back can potentially bring more security. This idea was already mentioned around here im sure but i seeing ore tactical relevance to it.

I can also speak to the fact that Marcelo playing naturally higher while we stick with 3 men at the back also leverage one of our greatest strength without the gaps he leaves behind on counters. Could likewise give a new life to Danilo (maybe).

Im just fascinated by how much a team like Chelsea improved by flipping over their lines, 4 in midfield 3 at the back, as opposed to 433 or 4231. It makes me wonder how it can impact us with CR.

Also, i dont exclude a back line like Varane-Casemiro-Ramos, or even a midfield with 5 midfielders like Italy or Juventus.

Anyway, what do you think?

I actually recommended this a years ago- not specific to Ronaldo, but because we have had serious balance issues in the past.

With Casemiro still out I think it is a viable option- I just don't know if Zidane has the experience to implement it properly.

For me if Casemiro is fit we play the 4-3-3, if he is out (given our lack of CDM replacements) we could play a 3-5-2 variation like you stated.

This thread is not about Conte, it's about how smart and adapted tactics have transformed and expanded the potential of a team by putting its best players in "better" positions to succeed. It's just tactics

You are right it's not a video game, it's football. We all agree that BBC is a walking cancer that gets worse with time, yet while BBC is actually consolidated in their power roles, not exploring tactics and ways to make the team more productive while being less exposed is foolish to me.

How do you answer such problems? tactics, coaching and game planing.

This is not a "let's go sign Conte because he is a miracle worker" thread, this is a "let's look at what another team is doing to address problems that look like ours" thread.

What you are telling me Tito we have an awfully unqualified coaching staff that can't teach shit to this team. Thank you for noticing, there is a separate thread for the "Zidane is a shit coach" remark. While i agree with you, he is indeed shit, it took Conte one summer and 2 months to give his team an identity, same with Pep, but we can't change because it's too hard and this fully stud out world class team we have, has babies that can't move around the pitch with a few dedicated coaching sessions? euh i dont buy that.

Yes Zidane is thoroughly inept at making any type of thorough tactical progression. but this thread is purely hypothetical thankfully, if we are still allowed to do so.

It could work. Carvajal would be perfect as a wing back but I think Marcelo's speed would be exposed against fast winger. As a wing back you should be able to run up and down like a pitbull, Marcelo is the opposite of that

I don't know, we struggle with a back four, a basic back four. Not sure how our players would all of sudden be adapt to a 3 man back line. Also, if I'm not mistaken, it seriously depends on your wing backs providing both the attacking and defensive width and Marcelo barely defends. Not because he can't, it is usually because he won't.

Alas, liked the read up Nick wrote. Can't say I agree with it but I guess it is Zidane can look into (which I'm sure he thought about or something he should have thought about).

Tito, not to detract from your points, as I agree with you re backups, but I think you are missing the recent play of Nacho. You said he isn't a world beater by any stretch of imagination.

I would argue that he may actually be our best defender at this point in time. Ever since he got called up to seleccion, he has drastically improved his confidence and his game maybe not spectacular is very steady and realiable (at any defensive position). He is likely going to start the next couple of International games with both Ramos and Pique out.

Compare him to Varane who has been hyped as the next great CB for past couple of years. He seems to make at least one critical error ever game.

Compare him to Pepe, our most senior CB. While Pepe generally has been playing excellent this season, he too has errored on several goals this year. I can only recall one error by Nacho this season.

And compare him to Ramos who is acknowleged as a top 5 CB by most futbol anyalsts (except the experts on this forum, lol). Ramos always goes for the all out tackle (thus being spectacular), but that leads to errors and together with his hot headedness leads to yellows. Plus he obviously does not use his brain out there, a lot of time. Nacho on the other hand seems always cool and calm out there.

titosantill wrote:and btw i'm not a fan of making a total change just to suit one player. if we're making that change it has to be because the team can thrive and we have the necessary back ups, not because we want to suit one players needs, especially when said player isn't getting any younger.....we should do these things to win and get results, not to hide any one player

Well if you are going to extend ronaldo and pay him as much as we are, then you are committing to adapting your team to suit him.

Anyway, i hear your concerns, and as i said, Zidane cant do it, he is not capable of it. One more argument in the "zidane is not a coach, just a man manager" basket.

Keep in him i am making a suggestion about how we can balance the team moving forward, If you want to talk about injuries and such, then yes, there is always a catastrophe scenario out there. but we also have defenders such as Llorente and Vallejo on loan that we can leverage moving forward. Just to answer your concerns, i dont think we have a problem with personel. Obviously there is always the odd man out like Coentrao but let's be honest, he looks nothing like a footballer now and no formation will help him. suggesting we play with a 3 man defense makes the need of a proper back up LB just as relevant as it is now.

Doc wrote:I don't know, we struggle with a back four, a basic back four. Not sure how our players would all of sudden be adapt to a 3 man back line. Also, if I'm not mistaken, it seriously depends on your wing backs providing both the attacking and defensive width and Marcelo barely defends. Not because he can't, it is usually because he won't.

Alas, liked the read up Nick wrote. Can't say I agree with it but I guess it is Zidane can look into (which I'm sure he thought about or something he should have thought about).

well not necessarily, because if you play a 343 then you still have 2 wide men forward that can both leverage the wing and the half space + the wing back that can assist.

I do wish we were working on real schemes axed around balancing the squad, being safe at the back and explosive forward, not that dreaded 424 we witnessed on wednesday, absolutely shambolic.

In terms of personel we have, i think the right level of coaching can make it a workable solutions, even with Casemiro because while he is a defensive specialist, he is poor when it comes to playing from the back. I know people have already forgotten everything about casemiro but the fact that he protects the back four very well.

Another aspect i did not mention is how the 3 man defense can potentially leverage the best version of kroos, in a role of regista but actually protected by 3 players behind him and not just 2, making the stress of defensive transition less obvious.

varane - pepe - Ramos
Kroos

reminds me when that booger eater Loew switched the flip on Italy by playing 3 at the back and taking them out of the euros.

I'm off topic, but I have a question for Nick or Hala re Llorente (the CB not Marcos). Last season Hala was saying Llorente was ahead of Vallejo (I think mainly because Llorente was playing in 1st and Vallejo in 2nd).

This season I have heard praise of Vallejo but nothing of Llorente. Now I see that Vallejo is a key feature in Spain's U21 and Llorente is not even selected.

Is Llorente older than Vallejo (and not eligible for U21)?

Does anyone know how he is doing this season?

Nick, I like what you are proposing and generally agree with most of it. Your most important point I believe is

Mr Nick09 wrote:

I do wish we were working on real schemes axed around balancing the squad, being safe at the back and explosive forward, not that dreaded 424 we witnessed on wednesday, absolutely shambolic.  

From my humble opinion, the only effective back three that I have seen is the Juve / Italy trio. The fact that they have played together for years is a major factor in their success. They are able to play off each other almost seemly knowing were the others are going to move in any given scenario.  Now compare that to Ramos and Pepe. There are times, even with the two of them, they don't know where the other is! And to play as 3, they need to use their brain, which they appear at times to be lacking. Bottom line, besides a coach capable of teaching the positional play, I have doubts whether it could work with our current personnel.

futbol_bill wrote:I'm off topic, but I have a question for Nick or Hala re Llorente (the CB not Marcos). Last season Hala was saying Llorente was ahead of Vallejo (I think mainly because Llorente was playing in 1st and Vallejo in 2nd).

This season I have heard praise of Vallejo but nothing of Llorente. Now I see that Vallejo is a key feature in Spain's U21 and Llorente is not even selected.

Is Llorente older than Vallejo (and not eligible for U21)?

Does anyone know how he is doing this season?

Llorente the CB is 23. Vallejo is 19. Vallejo has the potential to be a starter for us, Llorente not so much. I can see replacing Nacho as a backup though.

@futbol, Llorente has been injured for a couple of games. He is 23 so is not eligible for the u21. He started the season wonderfully but his last 2 or so games were really poor. We will see at the end of the season how well he has developed. Out of all our loaned players only Marcos can come back and stake a claim for a starting spot. The others have some way to go still imo

futbol_bill wrote:Nick, I like what you are proposing and generally agree with most of it. Your most important point I believe is

Mr Nick09 wrote:

I do wish we were working on real schemes axed around balancing the squad, being safe at the back and explosive forward, not that dreaded 424 we witnessed on wednesday, absolutely shambolic.  

From my humble opinion, the only effective back three that I have seen is the Juve / Italy trio. The fact that they have played together for years is a major factor in their success. They are able to play off each other almost seemly knowing were the others are going to move in any given scenario.  Now compare that to Ramos and Pepe. There are times, even with the two of them, they don't know where the other is! And to play as 3, they need to use their brain, which they appear at times to be lacking. Bottom line, besides a coach capable of teaching the positional play, I have doubts whether it could work with our current personnel.

Conte took juve at started playing with a the back and that's when they started rolling. Italy just based everything on their success.

Bayern was pretty good with the 3 man defense as well. Remember athletic bilbao when Bielsa took over?

I do think there is a possible adaptation of what Nick has proposed. That is to play a deep lying DM in front of CBs, be it Casemiro or one of the CBs.

I would also make use of Kroos as Nick suggested earlier.

THis would in turn mean only playing 2 of BBC.

THat is

Pepe Ramos
carvajal CAsemiro or Varane. MArcelo

KRoos

MOdric. ISco or Kova

Bale. ROnaldo

futbol_bill wrote:I do think there is a possible adaptation of what Nick has proposed. That is to play a deep lying DM in front of CBs, be it Casemiro or one of the CBs.

I would also make use of Kroos as Nick suggested earlier.

THis would in turn mean only playing 2 of BBC.

THat is

Pepe Ramos
carvajal CAsemiro or Varane. MArcelo

KRoos

MOdric. ISco or Kova

Bale. ROnaldo

BBC is here to stay, it's useless to keep fighting it, and we know Bale-Ronado in attack doesnt work, they need a real CF, that's Benzema. However poorly he is playing right now, it's extremely hard to find someone with the same skillset, so we need to keep leveraging that.

A 3 man defense works better if you play two strikers, or a striker and two attacking midfielders i.e. James, Isco, kova, and to some extend Bale could manage to play there. It won't work with two wing-backs and two wingers, the middle of the park will be empty in that case.

The intention is at if you play two attacking midfielders they should be able to dribble to the wings if need to.

Even if we will never try it out an interesting scenario would be:

but that creates more problem than it solves, you then have Benzema Diaz and Morata on the bench, and with only a spot available.

Saying that, 3-man-defense is out of the question for now

StrugaRock wrote:A 3 man defense works better if you play two strikers, or a striker and two attacking midfielders i.e. James, Isco, kova, and to some extend Bale could manage to play there. It won't work with two wing-backs and two wingers, the middle of the park will be empty in that case.

The intention is at if you play two attacking midfielders they should be able to dribble to the wings if need to.

Even if we will never try it out an interesting scenario would be:

Pepe-Casemiro-Ramos
Carvajal-Modric-Kroos-Marcelo
James-Bale
Ronaldo

but that creates more problem than it solves, you then have Benzema Diaz and Morata on the bench, and with only a spot available.

Saying that, 3-man-defense is out of the question for now

StrugaRock wrote:A 3 man defense works better if you play two strikers, or a striker and two attacking midfielders i.e. James, Isco, kova, and to some extend Bale could manage to play there. It won't work with two wing-backs and two wingers, the middle of the park will be empty in that case.

The intention is at if you play two attacking midfielders they should be able to dribble to the wings if need to.

Even if we will never try it out an interesting scenario would be:

Pepe-Casemiro-Ramos
Carvajal-Modric-Kroos-Marcelo
James-Bale
Ronaldo

but that creates more problem than it solves, you then have Benzema Diaz and Morata on the bench, and with only a spot available.

Saying that, 3-man-defense is out of the question for now

you just draw the same 343 i did calling it something else to say it doest work lol

and yes it does work with 2 wingers, just watch bayern they figure it out. I think modern players are smart enough to understand that when deplpoyed in a 433 even, their job isnt just to hug the line but to take advantage of the halves spaces in between defenders too.

And I made it pretty clear this is for BBC, they are not to be touched, any experiment of having ronaldo play as a striker has flopped so far

Yes you are right, smart enough players, that run a lot and unselfish. Try finding that lot here in Madrid.

It's not the line up that is the problem, off form Ronaldo is the problem, cause if he is on form and scoring goals for fun, it doesn't matter if we play 3-4-3 or 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 it will work either way.

Again having said that playing two attacking-always wanting to score-wingers with two other wing-backs would leave other teams running riots in the middle.