Re: Match Day Thread

[danyjr]

The whole team is playing like shit.

I know it makes you so happy

[alexjanosik]

No surprise that we play like a relegation team with Messi with every single player looking like they have no idea what they are doing. The pressing game which was brilliant in his absence is non existent. The midfield probably didnt get the memo that Messi is back. Take the 2nd goal for instance. All 3 midfielders pressed. Alas, a good press works when everyone presses. Alas, his highness, who gets paid 100 mil a year cant be bothered. Betis as expected easily break the pathetic press and we are countered leading to a goal. Multiple other occasions when the midfield was caught higher up with acres behind.

The less said about the attack the better. As usual, dominated by Messi with every other player looking lost. Compare to the dynamic attacking without Messi.

What about the Rayo game? I haven't seen it but Messi wasnt playing and it seems we sucked just us much throughout and only got lucky in the end.

Its all about options. Without Messi, there are more options in attack. Everyone gets the ball and everyone else is moving according to whoever has the ball. The attack is more dynamic and all the attackers look good. With Messi, he dominates the ball in attack and he will provide no options whatsoever when others have the ball. Take todays game. He had a few nice dribbles while the others nothing. Does that mean he had a good game and the others not? Nope. It just means he gets to dominate the ball and the others are forced to play off of him. There were multiple instances where with a bit of movement Messi could have put himself in a dangerous position while others had the ball. But it didnt happen.

I just think the version of Messi post 2012 is a player playing in the wrong era. He is an old school number 10 when the modern game doesnt have one. The game is much more dynamic. More importantly the Cruyff game doesnt have an old school 10.

Put more simply. Without Messi, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. With Messi, the whole is much lesser than the sum of its parts.

This version of Messi would have been otherworldy in an older era.

[Harmonica]

I would sell Rakitic after today's performance, it was that bad.

[danyjr]

In any case, your precious Juve just got tonked by Mouchester United on their own ground.

Talk about getting tonked
By the 15th team in La Liga
Conceding 4 goals
In your own turf

[Myesyats]

This is a section for fans, not haters.

GTFO you plebeian.

[windkick]

Sergi was out of position the entire match, and mostly because he was forced to cover for Rakitic who’s touch was horrible all game. All in all blame has to go to EV for not being able to make the necessary adjustments and changes to stop the bleeding; which screams of the issue EV had against Roma.

[danyjr]

Its all about options. Without Messi, there are more options in attack. Everyone gets the ball and everyone else is moving according to whoever has the ball. The attack is more dynamic and all the attackers look good. With Messi, he dominates the ball in attack and he will provide no options whatsoever when others have the ball. Take todays game. He had a few nice dribbles while the others nothing. Does that mean he had a good game and the others not? Nope. It just means he gets to dominate the ball and the others are forced to play off of him. There were multiple instances where with a bit of movement Messi could have put himself in a dangerous position while others had the ball. But it didnt happen.

I just think the version of Messi post 2012 is a player playing in the wrong era. He is an old school number 10 when the modern game doesnt have one. The game is much more dynamic. More importantly the Cruyff game doesnt have an old school 10.

Put more simply. Without Messi, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. With Messi, the whole is much lesser than the sum of its parts.

This version of Messi would have been otherworldy in an older era.

This is not just Messi's fault. When players constantly look for him in attack, it is the game plan that is lacking. You can blame him for lack of pressing, which I agree. It hurts Argentina too when he stops putting the work in.

Add the fact that you don't have a LW. Or even when you have one, the players don't trust him, be it Malcom or Munir. There were a couple of occasions in this match alone where they were in very good goalscoring positions but players decided to pass to someone else instead.

Also Malcom played very badly. I can see why Valverde doesn't play him. He has this tendency to move inside when attacking whereas your typical 4-3-3 winger would actually create space in the middle by going wide. He was just moving into congested zones throughout the match and also refused/didn't see passes when they were available.

[alexjanosik]

I dont blame the midfield. I blame Valverde who should have adjusted immediately after the game started. If you look at our previous matches, the forwards pressed intensely. The midfield followed suit and also pressed brilliantly. Because, we were pressing well, we were able to win the ball back early tons of times. Not once were opposition able to beat the press.

I have no clue why he set us up; including the midfield to press. It's not going to work with messi walking around as if he owns the pitch. Should have ditched the press within the first 5 minutes. We didnt, all 3 midfielders pressed high, they easily beat the press time and again and the result is there for all to see.

Should have sat back. Less said about Roberto the better. Semedo should definitely start ahead of him. Roberto is a severe liability at the best of times and he becomes even more of a liability with Messi on his side.

[alexjanosik]

Its all about options. Without Messi, there are more options in attack. Everyone gets the ball and everyone else is moving according to whoever has the ball. The attack is more dynamic and all the attackers look good. With Messi, he dominates the ball in attack and he will provide no options whatsoever when others have the ball. Take todays game. He had a few nice dribbles while the others nothing. Does that mean he had a good game and the others not? Nope. It just means he gets to dominate the ball and the others are forced to play off of him. There were multiple instances where with a bit of movement Messi could have put himself in a dangerous position while others had the ball. But it didnt happen.

I just think the version of Messi post 2012 is a player playing in the wrong era. He is an old school number 10 when the modern game doesnt have one. The game is much more dynamic. More importantly the Cruyff game doesnt have an old school 10.

Put more simply. Without Messi, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. With Messi, the whole is much lesser than the sum of its parts.

This version of Messi would have been otherworldy in an older era.

This is not just Messi's fault. When players constantly look for him in attack, it is the game plan that is lacking. You can blame him for lack of pressing, which I agree. It hurts Argentina too when he stops putting the work in.

Add the fact that you don't have a LW. Or even when you have one, the players don't trust him, be it Malcom or Munir. There were a couple of occasions in this match alone where they were in very good goalscoring positions but players decided to pass to someone else instead.

Also Malcom played very badly. I can see why Valverde doesn't play him. He has this tendency to move inside when attacking whereas your typical 4-3-3 winger would actually create space in the middle by going wide. He was just moving into congested zones throughout the match and also refused/didn't see passes when they were available.

Why do players constantly look for him? I dont know. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that he is constantly in the 10 position demanding the ball. You give me an example of a structured play with Messi playing the way he does. He is not going to move to creat space. He is not going to make a run on the outside of the fullback. He is not going to take the LB on out wide. Given the way he plays, you give me one example of a structured hypothetical play which doesnt involve him picking up the ball in the hole.

Hell, look at Rakitic. Guy looked a briliant passer with Messi out, setting up players left, right and center. And now compare with todays game.

[Myesyats]

Valverde is the only one at fault here, he cannot make the team work around Messi.

Rafinha isnt a pressing machine either, don't tell me he makes so much of a difference compared to Messi. They're both comparable in their work ethic.

[windkick]

We were playing like rhis without Messi just look at the Rayo game. Difference is with Messi we scored 2 goals and if he didn’t play we likely don’t. We had all sorts of issues and have had them all season as evidence of our poor clean sheet record. So to consistently point the finger at Messi is pretty ridiculous, since EV has had plenty of time since the Roma game to figure something out and he hasn’t. If anything teams in La Liga saw what Roma did that works and are implementing it against us

[danyjr]

We were playing like rhis without Messi just look at the Rayo game. Difference is with Messi we scored 2 goals and if he didn’t play we likely don’t. We had all sorts of issues and have had them all season as evidence of our poor clean sheet record. So to consistently point the finger at Messi is pretty ridiculous, since EV has had plenty of time since the Roma game to figure something out and he hasn’t. If anything teams in La Liga saw what Roma did that works and are implementing it against us

Exactly this. Rayo game is testament that the problem isn't Messi alone. This team needs a change of plan because the players aren't suited to the style being played.

And no, Semedo isn't better than Roberto. He is absolutely awful going forward and just as bad defensively.

[Unique]

In any case, your precious Juve just got tonked by Mouchester United on their own ground.

Talk about getting tonked
By the 15th team in La Liga
Conceding 4 goals
In your own turf

as soon as RG sees this you will get docked 25%

[windkick]

And no, Semedo isn't better than Roberto. He is absolutely awful going forward and just as bad defensively.

Sergi is an odd player. He has been pretty awful every single time he has played in midfield over the past 2-3 season, so his "best" position, the one he was raised to play he is a liability in it now and better suits a RB position for us.

And at RB, he basically performs at the level the rest of the team does. If our midfield is holding the ball well and having tons of possesion and the opposing team is pressed back, he shines. He basically slots into a RM position and just has to focus on picking out crosses and creating chances from the wing which he has excelled at. But on the flip side, anytime the midfield is struggling to hold on to the ball and he is forced to actually play as a pure RB, he blows so bad. His position is awful (as evidience today during the entire 90 mins) and his lack of speed is a HUGE liability because if we aren't hold on the ball and are gettin countered by fast wingers he simply can't keep up and is forced to sloppy defending or he simply can't keep up. He doesnt seem to deal with a ton of pressure well, which is why he blows in our midfield because you have to think quick and distribute give and goes right in the heart of the other team trying to press and win the ball back (something Arthur is great at, regardless of whether people think so or not, or if it has an end product or not but that's for another thread). So to me, Sergi reminds me allot of Ramos when he played at RB for Spain. He was great because Spain *cough Barcas midfield cough* were holding the ball all game and he was free to bomb forward and people called him world class. But it was clear that was only when Spain was doing good, and with Madrid they realized they didn't have the same game Barca does in possession and they moved Ramos to CB.

So given how many creative players we already have on the pitch, and the fact that lately we have been getting countered left and right and the fact that Sergi's speed is what we look for to cover for Messi's flank makes me always perfer Semedo to him, just on the fact that I feel his speed on covering back will make up for Sergis creative attributes. I doubt Semedo would of been so bad at leaving his flank so open all game like Sergi was.

[alexjanosik]

We were playing like rhis without Messi just look at the Rayo game. Difference is with Messi we scored 2 goals and if he didn’t play we likely don’t. We had all sorts of issues and have had them all season as evidence of our poor clean sheet record. So to consistently point the finger at Messi is pretty ridiculous, since EV has had plenty of time since the Roma game to figure something out and he hasn’t. If anything teams in La Liga saw what Roma did that works and are implementing it against us

And yet, we scored 3 to win the game against Rayo while we lost today at home; conceding 4 against a team that has struggled to score all season. Messi scored twice, had a few nice dribbles. But that there is the problem. Suarez looked a force of nature in Messi's absence and yet struggles now that Messi is there. Everyone looked better in his absence. Ideally, Messi should lift us even more. But goes back to the whole and sum of parts argument.

A number 10 will not make a team greater than the sum of its parts in the modern game. The problem wont be solved by a different coach. I can guarantee that we will face the same issues with any coach, even Pep. Not on Valverde or the other players. Some players are clearly not good enough but the deeper structural issues are clearly brought about by the way Messi plays.

[BarcaLearning]

God, wtf was that defending all game... although I think the commentator said Betis has one of the leading possession stats in all of Europe this season or something, and they really passed well and beat our press and attacked with width, it really hurt us. We werent at our best, and Roberto as we all know just cant defend, and many teams target him as our weakness. Rakitic has always helped out so much defending Roberto is most game, not too sure this game he couldnt since hes always too high up or in the middle... Betis just passed through our midfield so quickly they couldnt handle it.... it is on Valverde, and he didnt do anything the entire match to counter this, its really really poor... and I guess it shows that he is a flawed coach?

Just hope this is a wake up call and we will work to eliminate these types of things and Valverde needs to have us adjust in games better for sure.

[Kebab]

It was matter of time. Playing in Roma style you can last only 3-4 games. In the last 4 games team worked their ass off to cover messi's absence. It was not normal pressing they pressed really hard and in few games they would get exhausted. Just look how tired players were, if sociedad got lucky they would score 10 more goals

[windkick]

We were playing like rhis without Messi just look at the Rayo game. Difference is with Messi we scored 2 goals and if he didn’t play we likely don’t. We had all sorts of issues and have had them all season as evidence of our poor clean sheet record. So to consistently point the finger at Messi is pretty ridiculous, since EV has had plenty of time since the Roma game to figure something out and he hasn’t. If anything teams in La Liga saw what Roma did that works and are implementing it against us

And yet, we scored 3 to win the game against Rayo while we lost today at home; conceding 4 against a team that has struggled to score all season. Messi scored twice, had a few nice dribbles. But that there is the problem. Suarez looked a force of nature in Messi's absence and yet struggles now that Messi is there. Everyone looked better in his absence. Ideally, Messi should lift us even more. But goes back to the whole and sum of parts argument.

A number 10 will not make a team greater than the sum of its parts in the modern game. The problem wont be solved by a different coach. I can guarantee that we will face the same issues with any coach, even Pep. Not on Valverde or the other players. Some players are clearly not good enough but the deeper structural issues are clearly brought about by the way Messi plays.

The problem with you is that it’s clear you look to mold every bad thing about the way the entire team, players form, aging players, bad transfers, and bad tactics from the manager ALWAYS somehow is all because of Messi’s worke rate. You always find a way to move the narrative of the match, of what’s wrong with the team all on him. So it’s difficult to have a conversation with you given your obvious bias, making it feel like it’s a waste of time to even rebuttal to your predicable points. This team has been extremely flawed for some time now, and yes Messi is also flawed but to single him out over the rest of the other issues I mentioned is not fair or factual of what’s really happening with the current team.

I’m pretty sure if Messi left 2-3 seasons ago we wouldn’t of won shit in that span.

[alexjanosik]

I raised specific points in this match. Like how the midfield pressed upfield and unlike previous games where the press was effective ; this time they broke the press easily. No prizes for guessing why. I am sure you have noticed how we get destroyed every single game down the right side. Some of that is on Roberto but part of that is also on Messi. I pointed out how he monopolizes the ball by always dropping into the hole. These are legit points that any Barca fan can see. I am a Barca fan and Couldnt care less about Messi.

I ask 4 questions. Same I ask every single time and yet nobody is able to respond.
Can we play 4-3-3 with Messi? If yes, how?
Can we play the Cruyff way with Messi? If yes, how?
Can we press like an elite team with Messi? If yes, how.
Can we attack dynamically with Messi? If yes, how?

Why not have a good reasonable tactical discussion around these 4 questions instead of accusing me of bias?

Wouldnt have won shit without Messi. Could have almost sworn that we tonked Madrid (also tonked them a couple of years ago at the Bernabeua without him) and played Inter off the park twice without Messi.
Your statement would lead one to believe that Messi has led to a 3 peat in the CL; breaking records left, right and center in the knockouts. Reality is that was Real and Ronaldo. Reality is we have been humuliated in the CL for a team of our talent for 5 out of the last 6 years. That is with the great Messi leading us.
Our trophy haul wouldnt have been any less without Messi last 2 seasons.

And assuming we had sold Messi for 250 mil and invested wisely; we would have been a force to reckon with.

[alexjanosik]

If I were a manager, I would play a 3-4-3.
A backline of Umtiti, Pique, Semedo with Umtiti left and Semedo right. A diamond midfield with Rakitic holding, Arthur to the left, Vidal to the right (Vidal and Arthur can interchange) and Messi at the tip. Suarez the 9, Dembele or Malcolm right and Coutinho left. Depending on opponent/stage of the game; Vidal and Arthur can be replaced by Alba and Roberto.
This would enable us to hide most of our tactical deficiencies and attack a bit more dynamically in theory. This way, we can also compensate for Messi's lack of work rate without compromising on style.

[futbol]

I feel like changing formations will mitigate the flaws at best, but Messi's playstyle itself is really annoying. The best football we have ever played around 2008 - 2011 was when Messi wasn't this ball dominant.

Even with 3-4-3 he will continue to make everyone else play to his fiddle instead of being just another great part of the team.

[neuro11]

All of the alexjanosik posts,like those of harmonica, will lead you to one conclusion

[FennecFox7]

Alex raises some really good points. the pace of the game has changed big time. Even Ronaldo, out of all people, presses and tracks back. Shaqiri is having to run his socks off at liverpool.

The athletic component of football is finally catching up to the times.. and one player, no matter how good they play, is almost useless in a way if they don't run, make runs, show for the ball, hold their position. Players are just physically at another level and they will punish you for it.

There's a reason 10's don't exist anymore. James, Isco, Fabregas, damn even Benz to an extent have had to adapt their game in one way or another. that position doesn't exist anymore.. as i've previously mentioned, athletes are at another level nowadays with conditioning and power

[Myesyats]

Messi should be positioned more on the right wing and occasionally appear in the middle like he did during the Lucho era.

Looking at the recent Betis game Messi was in the middle for virtually 90% of the game. Should be 85% on the wing and 15% in the middle.

That way Rakitic has also more freedom in midfield which makes him look less like a donkey.

So basically: leave midfield for midfielders. Messi isn't one.

[Kebab]

Alex raises some really good points. the pace of the game has changed big time. Even Ronaldo, out of all people, presses and tracks back. Shaqiri is having to run his socks off at liverpool.

The athletic component of football is finally catching up to the times.. and one player, no matter how good they play, is almost useless in a way if they don't run, make runs, show for the ball, hold their position. Players are just physically at another level and they will punish you for it.

There's a reason 10's don't exist anymore. James, Isco, Fabregas, damn even Benz to an extent have had to adapt their game in one way or another. that position doesn't exist anymore.. as i've previously mentioned, athletes are at another level nowadays with conditioning and power

All ronaldo fans are alexjanosik fans no surprise here, he is the one who is insulting messi the most, must be orgasm for ronaldo fans to read his posts in daily basis

[FennecFox7]

Alex raises some really good points. the pace of the game has changed big time. Even Ronaldo, out of all people, presses and tracks back. Shaqiri is having to run his socks off at liverpool.

The athletic component of football is finally catching up to the times.. and one player, no matter how good they play, is almost useless in a way if they don't run, make runs, show for the ball, hold their position. Players are just physically at another level and they will punish you for it.

There's a reason 10's don't exist anymore. James, Isco, Fabregas, damn even Benz to an extent have had to adapt their game in one way or another. that position doesn't exist anymore.. as i've previously mentioned, athletes are at another level nowadays with conditioning and power

All ronaldo fans are alexjanosik fans no surprise here, he is the one who is insulting messi the most, must be orgasm for ronaldo fans to read his posts in daily basis

I've always praised messi and given him props when due. I've also said he is the GOAT. his problem here is not an ability problem clearly. it's more of a mentality problem and it's to be expected when you win everything and anything

you and harmonica on the other hand can't even bring yourselves to praise anyone but messi. bring something to the discussion or honestly shut up

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