Champions League 2019/20 | Group D

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WHICH TWO TEAMS WILL PROGRESS ?

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Post by rincon on Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:59 pm

@RealGunner wrote:De Ligt is half the player Chiellini is

He isn't. He is 20 year old Bonucci. Potential and ball skills but mistakes everywhere.

Demiral needs to play.

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Post by JespSwe on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:00 pm

Juanfran's leadership seems heavily missed in this atletico team... man was such a calm controlling presence in that defense...
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Post by Arquitecto on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:01 pm

de Ligt, who's most known quality above all is his sheer confidence never really has had that look on his face that he had in Ajax and in the Champions League last year when no matter whom he faced whether Real Madrid in Bernabeu or Juve in Bayern Munich Arena, standing dauntless in attack or defence.

Bonucci's commands him well and he has shown improvements but still looks almost...? Meek.

I suppose receiving starts just due to their best CB being out injured for the season was not the best way to begin a confident start.

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Post by rincon on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:03 pm

Sucks so much to draw a match like that because of two set pieces.

Everything done well except for, once again, defending set pieces. At least the team, incomplete and growing, showed how good they are.
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Post by Arquitecto on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:03 pm

Bonucci was top class today though and where Juventus failed them was their fullbacks despite Sandro's perfect cross for the second goal as I cannot emphasise how out of place Danilo looks as if they summoned him from the stands to play.

Sandro and Danilo had a steady partnership for Porto as it is.


Criticise Cancelo as one may he is much better than Danilo in both regards.

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Post by rincon on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:06 pm

No to all of that. How were the full backs at fault when De Ligt was in no man's land marking no one on both goals?

Danilo in 3 matches has already shown WAY more defensive reliability than Cancelo did. Maybe we should go look at Cancelo's 1 minute of playing time for City to see if he has improved...
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Post by JespSwe on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:06 pm

why cant Cuadrado play in RWB and Dybala upfront or bernardeschi
anyway this was pretty intense game but both side had both best and worst of football... they certainly weren't the team that we saw of last year.

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Post by JespSwe on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:08 pm

@rincon wrote:No to all of that. How were the full backs at fault when De Ligt was in no man's land marking no one on both goals?

Danilo in 3 matches has already shown WAY more defensive reliability than Cancelo did. Maybe we should go look at Cancelo's 1 minute of playing time for City to see if he has improved...


one of those things normally De Ligt is pretty good with Aerial clearance....
i still think he will / should play along with Bonucci until Chellini returns as first choice...

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Post by Arquitecto on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:10 pm

@rincon wrote:No to all of that. How were the full backs at fault when De Ligt was in no man's land marking no one on both goals?

Danilo in 3 matches has already shown WAY more defensive reliability than Cancelo did. Maybe we should go look at Cancelo's 1 minute of playing time for City to see if he has improved...



Point is not to highlight how the goals were responsible due to them but how uncomfortable Juventus were in the back due to Danilo being physically overcome often and Sandro caught out to place.

There is no one solely to blame here.

Here is something more enlightening.


"12 - Juventus have conceded 9 of their last 12 goals in Champions League from set piece, the last 3 all from headed."


Exploitation of the wide areas aside Juventus looked quite comfortable from central attacks from Atletico but seems de Ligt just turns off when balls are crossed into the box which is odd given he is such a potent aerial threat in attack and same defensively.


I dont rate Cancelo in particular beyond his offence but Danilo offers very little and all I can say is you will eventually see that.

He's a player who peaked quite early in his career but was very good when touted years earlier.

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Post by rincon on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:11 pm

@JespSwe wrote:
@rincon wrote:No to all of that. How were the full backs at fault when De Ligt was in no man's land marking no one on both goals?

Danilo in 3 matches has already shown WAY more defensive reliability than Cancelo did. Maybe we should go look at Cancelo's 1 minute of playing time for City to see if he has improved...


one of those things normally De Ligt is pretty good with Aerial clearance....
i still think he will / should play along with Bonucci until Chellini returns as first choice...


He will because of his price tag. What message does it send if Demiral doesn't get his chance? he shouldn't be benched forever, but he should be benched for a match or two since we have another excellent CB prospect who looks like he can actually replace Chiellini in terms of style.
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Post by Warrior on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:12 pm

If you play in Porto the best team you face is Benfica a couple times a year, the rest of your opponents would struggle to maintain in Serie A. Now i understand why this pair of full backs was so succesful together.

Atletico has skilled attackers so they put us in trouble

- Sandro has given up on defense 2 years ago, usually he compensates in offensive moments and he did it again today
- Danilo's positioning makes me nervous, early to judge but i think MDS is better
- Bonucci great match
- De Ligt has struggles to clear the ball, but his overall play was good
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Post by JespSwe on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:16 pm

@rincon wrote:
@JespSwe wrote:
@rincon wrote:No to all of that. How were the full backs at fault when De Ligt was in no man's land marking no one on both goals?

Danilo in 3 matches has already shown WAY more defensive reliability than Cancelo did. Maybe we should go look at Cancelo's 1 minute of playing time for City to see if he has improved...


one of those things normally De Ligt is pretty good with Aerial clearance....
i still think he will / should play along with Bonucci until Chellini returns as first choice...


He will because of his price tag. What message does it send if Demiral doesn't get his chance? he shouldn't be benched forever, but he should be benched for a match or two since we have another excellent CB prospect who looks like he can actually replace Chiellini in terms of style.

Well unfortunately for Demiral this argument is a lost cause for exact reason ur saying... price tag and hefty salary and unless demiral shares the same agent XD

Demiral may get games but knowing Sarri how he lost dressing room in chelsea ... it could well happen at Juventus who knows..
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Post by Arquitecto on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:17 pm

Truth is Warrior Sandro CAN defend but is so zealous in attack he is caught out of position rather than directly being beaten and compensates so much in attack, for what he does not in defence.

His crosses have a mind of their own.

Agreed on Bonucci. Very much, composed performance in the back and his pass for the first goal was superb.

Agreed to on de Ligt as yes he cost Juve plain and simple but aside from that is showing incremental signs of improvement.

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Post by rincon on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:18 pm

@Warrior wrote:If you play in Porto the best team you face is Benfica a couple times a year, the rest of your opponents would struggle to maintain in Serie A. Now i understand why this pair of full backs was so succesful together.

Atletico has skilled attackers so they put us in trouble

- Sandro has given up on defense 2 years ago, usually he compensates in offensive moments and he did it again today
- Danilo's positioning makes me nervous, early to judge but i think MDS is better
- Bonucci great match
- De Ligt has struggles to clear the ball, but his overall play was good

Agree with all except for Sandro, he was excellent in the match and in this season so far.
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Post by Arquitecto on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:21 pm

Sandro has had his fair share of criticism but has overcome that iffy period he did not too long ago where he was failing to even attack well and is tactically very important for Juventus as a whole no matter who is up front as an attacker to partner him.

Very efficient CB.

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Post by Warrior on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:24 pm

Demiral will get a fair amount of minutes. With Chiellini out he becomes the third CB, by all logic, he has a higher status than Rugani who was supposedly on the market.

It was normal to go with De Ligt tonight for all the reasons you guys wrote, but in his first season at 20 years old i don't see why De Ligt would get a free pass nor do i think he will.
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Post by Arquitecto on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:27 pm

The Dutchman has admitted he is daunted by the new club he is in and had that concealed tension in his voice and wonder in his eyes the moment he was presented. I did not expect that given he captained Ajax from age 18 and was so fearless last year in the Champions League but his comments subtly hinting what he sees in this squad in training compared to what he saw in Ajax at least tells me he is aware he has to step it up and it will come. He is a star in the making no doubt.

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Post by Warrior on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:40 pm

Yes i think he is mature enough

De Ligt is another style of CB than Chiellini and i don't think he will ever reach this level of safety in defense. But he will become a elite ball-playing CB in the near future with a great mentor in Bonucci. That's why i am glad Juve is in charge of developing him, this player is an exciting project.
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Post by Robespierre on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:55 pm

But for me De Ligt has NOT played bad today hmm
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Post by Arquitecto on Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:00 pm

@Warrior wrote:Yes i think he is mature enough

De Ligt is another style of CB than Chiellini and i don't think he will ever reach this level of safety in defense. But he will become a elite ball-playing CB in the near future with a great mentor in Bonucci. That's why i am glad Juve is in charge of developing him, this player is an exciting project.


Zigra the sole Ajax fan of GL himself said for all de Ligt is known for, it isn't exactly his glorious defending.

The potential is there and he lacks nothing of sort but he did mention he is prone to mistakes and lapses to which he is as similar to Koulibaly for instance, another CB who takes a lot more responsibility than most CBs in football, those types of high octane CBs usually make those one glaring mistakes given how much they take on.

de Ligt has no excuses for his today though even if overall he was quite good, lapses aside.

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Post by adun101 on Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:31 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:Bonucci was top class today though and where Juventus failed them was their fullbacks despite Sandro's perfect cross for the second goal as I cannot emphasise how out of place Danilo looks as if they summoned him from the stands to play.

Sandro and Danilo had a steady partnership for Porto as it is.


Criticise Cancelo as one may he is much better than Danilo in both regards.


Sarri's defense is pure zone, the players have to stay close to each other and as a result the team will be more narrow. That's why the fullbacks "look" out of position and you give out more crosses. But a tall back line like Juve's can deal with crosses when the only threat is Costa. The problem was at set pieces when Atletico brought more biggies in to the box

Also, because Juve switched to this system only recently, there still is confusion. There was that play in the second half when Matuidi was left alone with three Atleti because Sandro somehow ended up between Bonucci and de Ligt and stayed there. I don't know who was supposed to, but one of him and de Ligt should have kicked out wide.


@rincon wrote:No to all of that. How were the full backs at fault when De Ligt was in no man's land marking no one on both goals?

Danilo in 3 matches has already shown WAY more defensive reliability than Cancelo did. Maybe we should go look at Cancelo's 1 minute of playing time for City to see if he has improved...


Reminder that, while not of paragon of elite defending, Cancelo was not a defensive liability. His problem was that he was giving the ball away too much. Ironically, Danilo doing Cancelo things led to that Vitolo run.

De Ligt had no fault at either goal. At the first one, he had to guard the space behind Bonucci, the ball floated over him and Bentancur lost his man. At the second, he's one of the four who has to guard the 6yd box, the ball landed near the penalty spot to an unmarked man. We suck at set pieces because our midfielders don't know or can't defend them. Just like with de Ligt's goal in the spring

@Warrior wrote:

- Sandro has given up on defense 2 years ago, usually he compensates in offensive moments and he did it again today


Sandro has become a great defender in the last two years. Unfortunately, he forgot how to attack, but early signs point that he will find it under Sarri.
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Post by adun101 on Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:33 pm

@Robespierre wrote:But for me De Ligt has NOT played bad today hmm


Same, but I was on the phone during the first 55 minutes, so I may have missed some things. He didn't jump out of the screen in either way, bad or good
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Post by Casciavit on Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:31 am

@Robespierre wrote:But for me De Ligt has  NOT played bad today hmm


He didn't.

It's Rincon dickriding these midtable Italian players and downplaying any hyped foreign player. If 18-year-old Messi was coming up through the Juve youth system 15 years ago, Rincon would complain about how he lacks defensive workrate and would ask for De Ceglie to start instead because he offers more grit and defense.

You have a CB who scouts and experts widely believe to be the best young CB in the world. He is a player who just turned 20 and is coming from Ajax, a step below Juve, and he's coming from a totally different defensive culture. He needs time to adapt and he's going to make mistakes on the way. I've never seen a 20-year-old CB who didn't have brainfarts. Fact is, he isn't going to develop unless he plays. Also, he wasn't even that bad today either. People really need to temper their expectations, the context justifies doing so.  

Also in all my years on this forum, I've NEVER SEEN anyone defend his club's decisions more than him too. He sips the Juve koolaid so hard that he actually defends Danilo, a meme at his every club post-Porto. rofl

Cancelo's played one minute, but everyone knows once he adapts more he'll get a lot more minutes. You don't buy a RB for 60M for him to not play at all. Allegri used to bring in players slowly too. I don't think I ever read him criticizing him for that but he was defending him over it instead.

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Post by rincon on Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:37 am

Excuse me, which midtable italian player did I 'dickride' here? I thought I proposed that a Turkish player who looked outstanding in preseason (and a better fit for Bonucci) not be permabenched? All while writing that De Ligt WILL be a success, but if he isn't ready to play our big games, then he should take a break in them for the meantime and other options be fairly tried.

As for Danilo, I guess judging him as a Juve player for his Juve performances is too much to ask for. I write here I didnt want him, but until he performs poorly for us he deserves a chance, as does everyone. I guess I should just ignore what Juve players do as Juve players, and follow hype trains instead.

Nuanced opinions opinions are too much for you here. I guess it should be "the expensive player should play 100% of the time because of his hype". Rotating the 20 year old CB seems to be too outrageous of a suggestion.

Give the 20 year old kid in a new team and country time to adapt well to it, it doesnt need to be forced.
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Post by Helmer on Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:26 am

I so desperately want Liverpool to face one of Atletico or Juventus this season in CL. It will be fun to see how Klopp organises team from defence to attack bounce

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Post by rincon on Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:31 am

It would be great. The Napoli-Liverpool match, and this one, were great. Top level play even if teams are incomplete in this phase of the season.

I like seeing Sarri (with us) face against Carlo and Siemone two weeks in a row, same would be nice against Klopp. He has to grow away from a "one way of playing" style he used with Napoli and so far he is showing this flexibility against these big teams. Which is really interesting and encouraging
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