Lionel Messi

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:

_LMG_10_ wrote:Dude...Ossie Ardiles who PLAYED with Maradona came out and said Messi has eclipsed Maradona already..that he's better than him...so have many others.

And your logic about the bowling green pitch is horrible. I don't want to get into a Maradona v Messi debate though.
Also, of course Lineker is gonna praise Maradona, just like Messi's victims praise him and say he's the greatest ever.

How is that logic horrible? how ignorant and bias do you have to be to think that isnt a factor? Lineker admited he could even control the ball properly on that pitch, but it makes no dfference right? whatever....

Do you know why ardiles said that? he thinks messi is fitter than past players, better nutrition ect. Thats fair enough, i agree with him, messi is fitter than maradona. Maybe messi can call himself the fittest player of all time

You gotta look at the whole picture. Sure, the pitches were worse, but so was the defensive organization of teams. Also, don't forget that defenders were less fit as well. Tactics weren't as evolved with every team having access to footage of opponents' most dangerous players. There's a LOT of factors here. What's important to look at is the fact that football is played more collectively these days and players are not supposed to be able to dribble by entire teams in the modern game, yet Messi does. He's an alien. Maradona was a superhero.

About Ardiles, I read the whole interview, and ur right he indeed did say that Messi is better because he's more fit, better nutrition etc...but that doesn't change the fact. That IS what makes you better. If you want to look at it from a relative standpoint as opposed to an absolute standpoint, then Messi is still better, because he's more consistent and scores far more goals and is more destructive to the opponent's backline.

lol this debate/argument again.

Why is it when some people who've seen both play say that Maradona was better, it's soooooo hard to accept by those who have only ever seen Messi play? How is that logical?????

The argument is that the older guys are just romanticizing, as everything today is supposedly superior. From tactics to fitness levels. That may very well be true, but you guys are forgetting the flip side of that coin. Messi has vastly superior talent around him. Messi has vastly better fields to play on. He also has way, way more protection in today's game. I'd really like to see how Messi would have handled being butchered game after game. With 2-3 players of the opposing team to worry about. Defenders can't do that to him because no matter where he plays, there's sure to be 10 other WC players around him. Maradona would have settled for even half of that, I'm sure...

The problem I see here is that most seem to think that the more goals you score = the better you are. That's simply isn't true. Besides, it's an apples vs oranges argument. Heavily defensive era vs An extremely offensive one. Everything today is catered for attack. And everything back then was catered for defense. From the weight of the ball, to tactics, to the offside rule.

IMO, Messi may very well be the better finisher, but he's no where close to being as complete as Maradona was. All imo of course.

_LMG_10_ wrote:

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:

_LMG_10_ wrote:Dude...Ossie Ardiles who PLAYED with Maradona came out and said Messi has eclipsed Maradona already..that he's better than him...so have many others.

And your logic about the bowling green pitch is horrible. I don't want to get into a Maradona v Messi debate though.
Also, of course Lineker is gonna praise Maradona, just like Messi's victims praise him and say he's the greatest ever.

How is that logic horrible? how ignorant and bias do you have to be to think that isnt a factor? Lineker admited he could even control the ball properly on that pitch, but it makes no dfference right? whatever....

Do you know why ardiles said that? he thinks messi is fitter than past players, better nutrition ect. Thats fair enough, i agree with him, messi is fitter than maradona. Maybe messi can call himself the fittest player of all time

You gotta look at the whole picture. Sure, the pitches were worse, but so was the defensive organization of teams. Also, don't forget that defenders were less fit as well. Tactics weren't as evolved with every team having access to footage of opponents' most dangerous players. There's a LOT of factors here. What's important to look at is the fact that football is played more collectively these days and players are not supposed to be able to dribble by entire teams in the modern game, yet Messi does. He's an alien. Maradona was a superhero.

About Ardiles, I read the whole interview, and ur right he indeed did say that Messi is better because he's more fit, better nutrition etc...but that doesn't change the fact. That IS what makes you better. If you want to look at it from a relative standpoint as opposed to an absolute standpoint, then Messi is still better, because he's more consistent and scores far more goals and is more destructive to the opponent's backline.

Do you think m10 had it easy tactically? in his playing days catenaccio was at its peak having evolved after its defeat to total football, teams would use a combination of zonal marking AND man marking to try and nullify playmakers like maradona. The leniant refereeing made it legitimate for the man marker to try and kick his mark out of the game. The strict offside rule made goalscoring chances even more of a rarity. Goalkeepers were allowed to pick up backpasses giving catenaccio another advantage. The 80s was an era that tactically belonged to defensive icons such as gentile, scirea, baresi, bergomi ect, so i think players like maradona and platini should have a lot of credit instead of critisising defensive organisation. This is what claudio gentile had to say about football in his era - "football is not for ballerinas"..... (which kind of suggest players werent supposed to dribble past entire teams back then either) well it is for ballerinas now. Tactics and rules have changed you are right about that, overall though they have changed to the benefit of forwards.

I just dont think the fitness/nutrition argument is a valid point. It hasnt got anything to do with the players talent, its just a consequence of external factors

Its too early to say messi is more consistent, hes only had 4 world class years so far but because hes still young we just expect him to have many more, that may, or may not happen

maradona is second below the riquelme in the boca legend rank

therefore, riquelme > maradona > messi

Vapotrini wrote:Why is it when some people who've seen both play say that Maradona was better, it's soooooo hard to accept by those who have only ever seen Messi play? How is that logical?????

What on earth are you talking about? Almost all who talk about it, and have played with or against or saw Maradona live, nowadays say that Messi is already better than him ever was, including me. Why is that so hard to accept?

Vapotrini wrote:lol this debate/argument again.

Why is it when some people who've seen both play say that Maradona was better, it's soooooo hard to accept by those who have only ever seen Messi play? How is that logical?????

The argument is that the older guys are just romanticizing, as everything today is supposedly superior. From tactics to fitness levels. That may very well be true, but you guys are forgetting the flip side of that coin. Messi has vastly superior talent around him. Messi has vastly better fields to play on. He also has way, way more protection in today's game. I'd really like to see how Messi would have handled being butchered game after game. With 2-3 players of the opposing team to worry about. Defenders can't do that to him because no matter where he plays, there's sure to be 10 other WC players around him. Maradona would have settled for even half of that, I'm sure...

The problem I see here is that most seem to think that the more goals you score = the better you are. That's simply isn't true. Besides, it's an apples vs oranges argument. Heavily defensive era vs An extremely offensive one. Everything today is catered for attack. And everything back then was catered for defense. From the weight of the ball, to tactics, to the offside rule.

IMO, Messi may very well be the better finisher, but he's no where close to being as complete as Maradona was. All imo of course.

Maradona maybe better than Messi.I think you are one of those lucky man who watched Maradona
in his prime,may be you were teenager that time.so of course for you Maradona is the best ever.
Doesn't matter even someone is truly better than Maradona you will never accept that.Anyway this
is your opinion.I know some people from other forum exactly like you, who watched Pele in his prime and
they confirm me that Maradona is not even close to Pele.Pele was far better player shooting ,heading, dribbling even play making,two footed player,was physically stronger. For them he was complete package.Now go tell those people that you watched Maradona in his prime and its impossible to someone better than maradona.They will probably laugh at you.Surprisingly some of them are even Argentine people.

Beautiful Football wrote:

Vapotrini wrote:lol this debate/argument again.

Why is it when some people who've seen both play say that Maradona was better, it's soooooo hard to accept by those who have only ever seen Messi play? How is that logical?????

The argument is that the older guys are just romanticizing, as everything today is supposedly superior. From tactics to fitness levels. That may very well be true, but you guys are forgetting the flip side of that coin. Messi has vastly superior talent around him. Messi has vastly better fields to play on. He also has way, way more protection in today's game. I'd really like to see how Messi would have handled being butchered game after game. With 2-3 players of the opposing team to worry about. Defenders can't do that to him because no matter where he plays, there's sure to be 10 other WC players around him. Maradona would have settled for even half of that, I'm sure...

The problem I see here is that most seem to think that the more goals you score = the better you are. That's simply isn't true. Besides, it's an apples vs oranges argument. Heavily defensive era vs An extremely offensive one. Everything today is catered for attack. And everything back then was catered for defense. From the weight of the ball, to tactics, to the offside rule.

IMO, Messi may very well be the better finisher, but he's no where close to being as complete as Maradona was. All imo of course.

Maradona maybe better than Messi.I think you are one of those lucky man who watched Maradona
in his prime,may be you were teenager that time.so of course for you Maradona is the best ever.
Doesn't matter even someone is truly better than Maradona you will never accept that.Anyway this
is your opinion.I know some people from other forum exactly like you, who watched Pele in his prime and
they confirm me that Maradona is not even close to Pele.Pele was far better player shooting ,heading, dribbling even play making,two footed player,was physically stronger. For them he was complete package.Now go tell those people that you watched Maradona in his prime and its impossible to someone better than maradona.They will probably laugh at you.Surprisingly some of them are even Argentine people.

I wouldn't go and tell them anything, because I can't. I can only debate on what I've seen and I never saw Pele play.

Vapotrini wrote:

Beautiful Football wrote:

Vapotrini wrote:lol this debate/argument again.

Why is it when some people who've seen both play say that Maradona was better, it's soooooo hard to accept by those who have only ever seen Messi play? How is that logical?????

The argument is that the older guys are just romanticizing, as everything today is supposedly superior. From tactics to fitness levels. That may very well be true, but you guys are forgetting the flip side of that coin. Messi has vastly superior talent around him. Messi has vastly better fields to play on. He also has way, way more protection in today's game. I'd really like to see how Messi would have handled being butchered game after game. With 2-3 players of the opposing team to worry about. Defenders can't do that to him because no matter where he plays, there's sure to be 10 other WC players around him. Maradona would have settled for even half of that, I'm sure...

The problem I see here is that most seem to think that the more goals you score = the better you are. That's simply isn't true. Besides, it's an apples vs oranges argument. Heavily defensive era vs An extremely offensive one. Everything today is catered for attack. And everything back then was catered for defense. From the weight of the ball, to tactics, to the offside rule.

IMO, Messi may very well be the better finisher, but he's no where close to being as complete as Maradona was. All imo of course.

Maradona maybe better than Messi.I think you are one of those lucky man who watched Maradona
in his prime,may be you were teenager that time.so of course for you Maradona is the best ever.
Doesn't matter even someone is truly better than Maradona you will never accept that.Anyway this
is your opinion.I know some people from other forum exactly like you, who watched Pele in his prime and
they confirm me that Maradona is not even close to Pele.Pele was far better player shooting ,heading, dribbling even play making,two footed player,was physically stronger. For them he was complete package.Now go tell those people that you watched Maradona in his prime and its impossible to someone better than maradona.They will probably laugh at you.Surprisingly some of them are even Argentine people.

I wouldn't go and tell them anything, because I can't. I can only debate on what I've seen and I never saw Pele play.

That's what i am saying it doesn't matter if Maradona is better than Messi.
For this generation people who beilive Messi is best ever let them believe, after all they can judge/debate only what they are watching.So for many young fans in today's generation Messi is the may be best ever.
And you can't blame them for that.This is all about opinion.

Beautiful Football wrote:

Maradona maybe better than Messi.I think you are one of those lucky man who watched Maradona
in his prime,may be you were teenager that time.so of course for you Maradona is the best ever.
Doesn't matter even someone is truly better than Maradona you will never accept that.Anyway this
is your opinion.I know some people from other forum exactly like you, who watched Pele in his prime and
they confirm me that Maradona is not even close to Pele.Pele was far better player shooting ,heading, dribbling even play making,two footed player,was physically stronger. For them he was complete package.Now go tell those people that you watched Maradona in his prime and its impossible to someone better than maradona.They will probably laugh at you.Surprisingly some of them are even Argentine people.

Indeed him to the left is one of them.

Maradona lovers use every way to discredit messi

Pitch is not good means an attacker can not play a football
Pitch is not good also means a defender can not play a football

The ball is not good means an attacker can not play football
The ball is not good means a defender also can not play football

your overrated past players showed some tricks against slow and unfit defenders you think they are best ever

Stop living with nostalgia dear "street football lovers"

Not nostalgia..... kid. Id dream to see a new player better than anyone i've seen before and watch him play football week in week out in high definition, and id be happy to call him the best, but honestly i dont think messi is that player as great as he is

in all honesty id rather play against ultra fit defenders than this



The scary thing is that was nothing compared to what the defender played like at peru's home stadium.



Maradona probably was the most fouled player in football history

You can not mark messi by 1 player like that. because messi is more agile and has more acceleration so in a second he can get away from defender. marking messi is way harder than maradona, you must use at least 3 players

So with that performance maradona won the World Cup? whole game he did one cross and two missed shoot. i'm sure messi does more things in one match

people see a player's best tricks on youtube they think he does those things every game 20 times. thats why youtube sucks, the best way to value player is to watch his performances in matches.

Btw am also a maradona fan (but not fanboy) Maradona for me is the best ever (when i say this i imagine there is no messi in the world). dont think that am a hater i just tell the truth

sokratis papastathopoulos didnt seem to find marking messi very difficult at the world cup

and no he didnt win the world cup with that performance, that was just a qualifier

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:sokratis papastathopoulos didnt seem to find marking messi very difficult at the world cup

and no he didnt win the world cup with that performance, that was just a qualifier

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:sokratis papastathopoulos didnt seem to find marking messi very difficult at the world cup

and no he didnt win the world cup with that performance, that was just a qualifier

You mean when Greece parked the bus?? If he would have had trouble marking a player when he has 10 other players helping him then....

Doesnt change the fact that one on one messi could hardly get past him. I just dont agree with the claim it "takes at least 3 players to mark messi"

Really? Watching that video makes me think that sokratis always had help whenever he got up to messi or he ended up fouling messi.... And lets not forget that in the last 10m of that game was Messi turned on the style. So that good of a job, he did not do.

if sokratis was able to do that then i think there are some world class defenders out there who can do it too..

foul or no sokratis managed and didnt get sent off and did a hell of a job

He didnt really stop him though, in the last 10-15 min messi started creating havock in that game, he even hit the wood work and was heavily involved in the 2nd goal IIRC...

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:sokratis papastathopoulos didnt seem to find marking messi very difficult at the world cup

and no he didnt win the world cup with that performance, that was just a qualifier

but still he did better than maradona
maradona - 2 shoots 1 cross
messi - 2 shoots one assist



so messi plays against a parked bus team and does same things which maradona did against 1 player. dont tell me that defender stopped messi he always got help from team-mates at one vs ones messi owned him but he fouled him always

in other hand 1 player stopped maradona (greatest dribbler ever)

its no shame being stopped by sokrates it wasnt always a foul, i know there is not much you can do to stop messi, but the guy did pretty well
for a 21 years old defender

i think there are defenders out there who can "tottally stop messi"
a few , but they exist and im talking about 1 on 1

Messi, so good he gets 'stopped' by some scrub but still gets MotM

WAtching some of the clips, just made me realise again just how freaking good Messi is. And I think this year, when he scored the hattrick in the NT game forgot vs who.... it really made him step up and prove that he can do it at the NT. The recent games shows that, he has really improved and matured, overall in the club and NT team. He is at his best so far in his career and even if he just keeps this up for another few years, im pretty sure many more will be won over by him.

Im not gonna argue if hes better than MAradona or Pele, as I didnt watch them...

Albiceleste wrote:Messi, so good he gets 'stopped' by some scrub but still gets MotM

that scrub you are refering to is better than almost every centerback in germany

dont get so mad he got stopped by him, life goes on.. messi can humilate other defenders, among EPL and la liga
but not him, deal with it

deadrave wrote:

Albiceleste wrote:Messi, so good he gets 'stopped' by some scrub but still gets MotM

that scrub you are refering to is better than almost every centerback in germany

dont get so mad he got stopped by him, life goes on.. messi can humilate other defenders, among EPL and la liga
but not him, deal with it

So this guy's name is sokratis ? where is he playing ?

Bénin wrote:

deadrave wrote:

Albiceleste wrote:Messi, so good he gets 'stopped' by some scrub but still gets MotM

that scrub you are refering to is better than almost every centerback in germany

dont get so mad he got stopped by him, life goes on.. messi can humilate other defenders, among EPL and la liga
but not him, deal with it

So this guy's name is sokratis ? where is he playing ?

werder bremen

you just have to watch the upcoming euro 2012 opening match greece - poland in 4 days

and you will see his quality

its a shame our coach will use a zonal marking
i had hopes for a man-to-man with sokratis marking lewandowski
but nevermind

and his surname is papastathopoulos, most people outside greece cant voice it they call him sokratis which is his name