Germany V. France

The Franchise wrote:I think the difference between Kroos and Ozil showed itself last time Bayern played Madrid tbh.

The key of the game was Kroos dropping so deep in an intellegant fashion and overloading the Madrid midfield.

I prefer Kroos for this reason. Ozil is the more modern player, quick can dribble and takes up wide positions...but people, the game aint changed that much. If you overload the midfield and still have width, your going to have an advantage...Kroos frankly, does that better than Ozil.

I get what you're saying and you're definitely not wrong but Ozil has never played in a possession orientated team so we can't know for sure if Kroos is actually better at that. Even then Ozil is an offensive player, he's at his best when he is creating something in front of goal. Take Khedira's goal, I've never seen Kroos do that (That could be my fault but if anyone wants to show me an example I'd gladly take that back).

So Kroos isn't a better offensive player than Ozil and it remains to be seen whether he can offer what Schweinsteiger, Khedira and Gundogan do in midfield. He's not as dynamic as Reus or Goetze and he isn't a centre forward. He's in a weird situation because he can offer something (more cultured passing in the middle of the park) but is that worth dropping one of the best offensive players in Ozil from the line up? I don't think so at all.

VivaStPauli wrote:Yes, in this match. Which is my entire point.
You don't change tactics and lineups because of one match. And you don't dismiss your best players because they did bad as a sub "that one time".

One dismisses one of the best player if there're better alternatives and the said player disbalances the team.
I started Kroos hype and rightly so. He is a great player but he's got huge deficits in his movement with the ball, dribbling, acceleration etc. He is very reliant on his team mates to get out in tight spaces. Özil or Götze has got entirely other tools to work with. Your very first comment about experience is right for Götze but in no way for Kroos.
Kroos would do well to get stronger and slot into a playmaker CM position.

Ideally, Germany could play:

-------------Reus----------------Müller------------

---------------------Özil/Götze---------------------------

----------CM--------------------------CM-------------

------------------Gündogan/piggy----------------------

Wingback-------------------------------Wingback

---------------CB---------------CB-------------------

-----------------------GK-----------------------------

to get the best out of the talents we have with proper balance between defence and midfield. Now, we come to another problem. In this system, the CMs have to be dynamic, make runs. Kroos doesn't do them much often without the ball.

---------piggy-------Khedira--------

------------Gündogan---------------

would be much more dymanic. Also, if Bayern play Farca with Kroos as their CAM I'm pretty sure they'd lose 8 of 10 times against them. One of the reasons is that Kroos woud get lost speed wise.


There's another chicken and egg misconception in your argumentation viva Özil makes the build up fast because his abilities allow him so not the other way around

I do not agree with any of this.
That's what I said. Kroos is brilliant, but he is not the kind of direct-minded CAM that Özil or Götze are.

Kroos orchestrates. Yes, he's reliant on his team mates. That's why I'd like Kroos for a team with a Gomez, that builds up slowly, and probes for openings.

And I'd take Özil and Götze for teams that take more risks in attack, and attack faster.

I was merely objecting to the statement that Özil was supposedly worlds ahead of Kroos, which is false.

VivaStPauli wrote:I do not agree with any of this.
That's what I said. Kroos is brilliant, but he is not the kind of direct-minded CAM that Özil or Götze are.

Kroos orchestrates. Yes, he's reliant on his team mates. That's why I'd like Kroos for a team with a Gomez, that builds up slowly, and probes for openings.

And I'd take Özil and Götze for teams that take more risks in attack, and attack faster.

I was merely objecting to the statement that Özil was supposedly worlds ahead of Kroos, which is false.

Where?

They aren't worlds apart by no means but the gap is existent and it isn't small What if I told you Kroos isn't able to build up faster even if he wanted to? On the other hand, when teams sit deep against us one of Özil/ Di Maria does something about it even with slower build up...

Yeah but what Di Maria does isn't exactly allowed by the rules.

VivaStPauli wrote:
I was merely objecting to the statement that Özil was supposedly worlds ahead of Kroos, which is false.

That's definitely a fair comment.

VivaStPauli wrote:Yeah but what Di Maria does isn't exactly allowed by the rules.

Like this? OP for sure

Not a fair comparison Babun as Di Maria for Argentina is god like

I think the Kroos v Ozil comparison is flawed. Ozil is best when he's playing SS... and is a shadow of himself as CAM. 6 months of very meh form at CAM have all but proven this. As soon as Mou pushed Ozil into a SS position and had Di Maria/ Modric go behind him, he's back to his old self. Kroos is a CM that can play CAM... i think he's much more natural CAM just because his flow game and overall pitch awareness are much better than Ozil's.

There's no reason they should be able to play together imo.

I think Ozil played the same role for Germany since 2010 and I don't think it's SS, though it's depending on how you define it. In that role, whatever you call it, he generally performed consistently very well throughout, more often than not put a great showing actually. He has been getting better and has been one good constant of the Germany team since he's integrated. He's beasting with in form Schweinsteiger and Muller at WC 2010, starred the Euro qualifying without Schweinsteiger and with Muller battling with his form. He still showed something at Euro 2012 with both out of form Schweinsteiger and Muller, and with Low hasn't really made his mind up to pick between Gomez, Klose, Reus, Podolski, and Kroos. He's excellent as usual in the recent WC qualifying in the very same role and he showed the same thing vs France. He didn't give any reason for people to even discussing about displacing him, how such discussion even came up in this thread just feel not right.

kroos is a better midfielder, ozil is a better attacker, that's what it comes down to. and they can absolutely play together, but that means no gotze for example. Germany cant be playing all their CAMs at the same time anyway. For the type of up and run game germany plays in friendly or qualifiers, Ozil or that kind of pacy CAM is perfect. but when official comps come through, the game slows down, and it gets harder for them to replicate the same style, guys like kroos and even gundogan would make a difference there. mind you, Ozil didnt impress me a great deal in the last euros.

also, differentiate between vision and passing because they aint the same. no one in germany can play a final ball like Ozil, just no one but that doesnt mean that his passing ability is unmatched. other players like kroos and gundogan use their passing a bit differently thats all

I'm not discussing replacing Özil btw, I think he should start. I just think Kroos fills his own niche almost as well as Özil fills his nice, they just happen to be different players.
Özils direct competition is Götze, and Götze isn't up to par with Özils vision yet, but a better finisher. This is good for Götze though, it means he can be played on the wing, or basically any forward position and leave the playmaking to Özil.

Kroos is best played deeper, sadly he doesn't have the defensive instincts of Schweinsteiger, so he won't replace him, and we have no real CM slot, at least not for one with Kroos' defensive capabilities.

As Germany currently plays, Kroos is Schweinsteigers backup, and a good sub. But he just doesn't fit what we usually play as good as Özil does.

Mr Nick09 wrote:kroos is a better midfielder, ozil is a better attacker, that's what it comes down to. and they can absolutely play together, but that means no gotze for example. Germany cant be playing all their CAMs at the same time anyway. For the type of up and run game germany plays in friendly or qualifiers, Ozil or that kind of pacy CAM is perfect. but when official comps come through, the game slows down, and it gets harder for them to replicate the same style, guys like kroos and even gundogan would make a difference there. mind you, Ozil didnt impress me a great deal in the last euros.

Ozil was one of Germany's best players. If you guys think Kroos is unbenchable (I certainly don't) then have him play in midfield where his skills are actually more useful.

I wouldn't bench Ozil for Kroos, I wouldn't bench Goetze for Kroos and I wouldn't bench Rues for Kroos. Kroos is a great player but what this talk about him needing to start all of a sudden?



You're going to bench this guy? The team should be built around him if anything.

VivaStPauli wrote:I'm not discussing replacing Özil btw, I think he should start. I just think Kroos fills his own niche almost as well as Özil fills his nice, they just happen to be different players.
Özils direct competition is Götze, and Götze isn't up to par with Özils vision yet, but a better finisher. This is good for Götze though, it means he can be played on the wing, or basically any forward position and leave the playmaking to Özil.

Kroos is best played deeper, sadly he doesn't have the defensive instincts of Schweinsteiger, so he won't replace him, and we have no real CM slot, at least not for one with Kroos' defensive capabilities.

As Germany currently plays, Kroos is Schweinsteigers backup, and a good sub. But he just doesn't fit what we usually play as good as Özil does.

This I agree with completely. It's a shame because Kroos is good but this is the "tax" you pay for having such a great squad.

Schweinsteiger is being grossly overrated now. He's nowhere what he was 2 years ago and he tends to disappear in big games. I thought Gundogan looked great. To me, you go 433 and play Gundogan-Khedira-Kroos with Ozil-Reus-Gotze up front. Let either Gotze or Ozil play the false 9... the Germany CFs suck right now anyhow.

Schweinsteiger has been bad for the past half of the last season. You need to watch him again. Ever since he's not injured anymore he has been world class. I don't even know why I'm contributing to a debate about this.

And Z... Madrid fans know that Ozil is either brilliant or a ghost. He was a ghost for 6 months before December. I believe it's because Mou moved him forward that he suddenly regained top form... but you can't really build around someone unless they show a consistent 12 months of top form. Germany has too much talent to take that kind of risk.

Personally, i'd build around a system and then adjust if a player truly proves that they deserve to be built around.

sportsczy wrote:Schweinsteiger is being grossly overrated now. He's nowhere what he was 2 years ago and he tends to disappear in big games. I thought Gundogan looked great. To me, you go 433 and play Gundogan-Khedira-Kroos with Ozil-Reus-Gotze up front. Let either Gotze or Ozil play the false 9... the Germany CFs suck right now anyhow.

Babun wrote:Ideally, Germany could play:

-------------Reus----------------Müller------------

---------------------Özil/Götze---------------------------

----------CM--------------------------CM-------------

------------------Gündogan/piggy----------------------

Wingback-------------------------------Wingback

---------------CB---------------CB-------------------

-----------------------GK-----------------------------

to get the best out of the talents we have with proper balance between defence and midfield. Now, we come to another problem. In this system, the CMs have to be dynamic, make runs. Kroos doesn't do them much often without the ball.

Piggy makes runs

VivaStPauli wrote:Schweinsteiger has been bad for the past half of the last season. You need to watch him again. Ever since he's not injured anymore he has been world class. I don't even know why I'm contributing to a debate about this.

He played on WC level in one single season. That's not enough contribution to warrant him the title of a world class midfielder. Lahm was truly world class because he kept the highest level for years.

never said he should start over Ozil, and never will. Ozil is simply a much much better fit to this germany side than Kroos currently is. I was only interested in the Ozil vs Kroos comparison, because as it so often happens here, to elevate on player, people want to dump on their competition.

This is a matter of the best fit, not the best ability wise (although you can argue both go together here). He can only start at AM for this Germany squad because even at CM i would take gundogan over him because of his defense.

i just argued that there are those late games in NT comps in which the prowess of a Kroos can be utilized better, but still that doesnt mean sacrificing Ozil. i would have them both up there with Reus and a CF.

Zealous wrote:

The Franchise wrote:I think the difference between Kroos and Ozil showed itself last time Bayern played Madrid tbh.

The key of the game was Kroos dropping so deep in an intellegant fashion and overloading the Madrid midfield.

I prefer Kroos for this reason. Ozil is the more modern player, quick can dribble and takes up wide positions...but people, the game aint changed that much. If you overload the midfield and still have width, your going to have an advantage...Kroos frankly, does that better than Ozil.

I get what you're saying and you're definitely not wrong but Ozil has never played in a possession orientated team so we can't know for sure if Kroos is actually better at that. Even then Ozil is an offensive player, he's at his best when he is creating something in front of goal. Take Khedira's goal, I've never seen Kroos do that (That could be my fault but if anyone wants to show me an example I'd gladly take that back).

So Kroos isn't a better offensive player than Ozil and it remains to be seen whether he can offer what Schweinsteiger, Khedira and Gundogan do in midfield. He's not as dynamic as Reus or Goetze and he isn't a centre forward. He's in a weird situation because he can offer something (more cultured passing in the middle of the park) but is that worth dropping one of the best offensive players in Ozil from the line up? I don't think so at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-97o0uNdVAw

Might not be exactly the same, but nontheless a pretty neat first touch and quick through pass. This is from last weekend btw.

But yeah, both are great players, but i kind of agree that Özil bring smore to the table, his awesome control in tight spaces alone is so important.

sportsczy wrote:Schweinsteiger is being grossly overrated now. He's nowhere what he was 2 years ago and he tends to disappear in big games. I thought Gundogan looked great. To me, you go 433 and play Gundogan-Khedira-Kroos with Ozil-Reus-Gotze up front. Let either Gotze or Ozil play the false 9... the Germany CFs suck right now anyhow.

ozil-reus-gotze? who is gonna score? you need to put muller somwhere in there. If you already have Kroos and Gundogan in the midfield, you dont need Gotze anymore.

sportsczy wrote:And Z... Madrid fans know that Ozil is either brilliant or a ghost. He was a ghost for 6 months before December. I believe it's because Mou moved him forward that he suddenly regained top form... but you can't really build around someone unless they show a consistent 12 months of top form. Germany has too much talent to take that kind of risk.

Personally, i'd build around a system and then adjust if a player truly proves that they deserve to be built around.

thing is, Ozil doesnt have such problems with germany. He is great for them most of the time bar the euros. mou doesnt have a clue how to best use Ozil in a collective, Low does. Germany plays to Ozil strength, on the run, every one exchange positions, create space for others etc...

Mr Nick09 wrote:

sportsczy wrote:Schweinsteiger is being grossly overrated now. He's nowhere what he was 2 years ago and he tends to disappear in big games. I thought Gundogan looked great. To me, you go 433 and play Gundogan-Khedira-Kroos with Ozil-Reus-Gotze up front. Let either Gotze or Ozil play the false 9... the Germany CFs suck right now anyhow.

ozil-reus-gotze? who is gonna score? you need to put muller somwhere in there. If you already have Kroos and Gundogan in the midfield, you dont need Gotze anymore.

To be fair, Reus is just as likely to score as Müller is, I just prefer to have both of them.
Müller --- Özil --- Götze
---------- Reus

Problem solved.
And yes, I want to keep the Khedira + Schweinsteiger pivot. I see no reason not to.

sportsczy wrote:... Madrid fans know that Ozil is either brilliant or a ghost. He was a ghost for 6 months before December.

Sorry, but this is just not true. He's never been ghosting even when he's not in his top brilliant form. The last time he's been ghosting was the 5-0 Barca match years ago. I think he's just building up his form gradually which is normal for any player. He ended 2012 season with high note. At Euro, though it was probably a tournament to forget for him, he still got 2 motm award and Germany better player in the lost to Italy. Later he started the new season rather weak by his standard and rotation with Mordric not helping too, but we're already seeing his better form since the 2-2 Barca match in October and he's on the right track since then. He already had some great matches long before December. In overall he's great most of the time with Madrid just like with Germany, though in a different way.