Germany V. France

likeastar wrote:Low should let these Bayern losers out, they lack winning mentality. Keep Lahm, Neuer and Muller in the first 11. Captain Khedira

Neuer
Lahm Hummels Howedes Schmelzer
Khedira Gundogan
Ozil
Muller Reus Gotze

I'd still take Schweinsteiger over Gündogan, but that is indeed a tasty lineup. Dat offensive creativity.

likeastar wrote:Low should let these Bayern losers out, they lack winning mentality. Keep Lahm, Neuer and Muller in the first 11. Captain Khedira

Neuer
Lahm Hummels Howedes Schmelzer
Khedira Gundogan
Ozil
Muller Reus Gotze

Yes, that's probably my favored line up at the moment as well.

Höwedes needs to play as a CB, not as some makeshift RB or even LB. Schmelzer might be the weak link, but he's still the best option on that position.

Gündogan vs Schweinsteiger is debatable, but if the current trends continue, it will sort itself out until either the World Cup or right after it - in Gündogan's favor.

A front 4 consisting of Özil, Götze, Reus and Müller is almost a must, especially with Klose out injured. Gomez doesn't fit in and probably never will. The aforementioned front 4 can all occupy either of the positions, can constantly interchange and all of them are capable of scoring.

Those tasty front-four aside, I don't agree with Kroos not fitting the system, and not having a slot for him does irk me a bit.
Maybe rotate him through DM/CM/CAM-positions? I dunno.

VivaStPauli wrote:Those tasty front-four aside, I don't agree with Kroos not fitting the system, and not having a slot for him does irk me a bit.
Maybe rotate him through DM/CM/CAM-positions? I dunno.

Kroos' problem is that, despite his obvious qualities, it's hard to integrate him in a 4-2-3-1, since both his best positions (CM and CAM) are occupied by even better specialists (Schweinsteiger/Gündogan and Özil/Götze).

The best way to use him in a way that suits his abilities would be by switching to a 4-3-3 and to use him as part of the midfield trio, in front of Khedira/Bender and Schweinsteiger/Gündogan. The front 3 would then consist of 3 out of Özil, Götze, Müller and Reus. One of them would have to be dropped, despite being "too good for the bench" and we wouldn't be having this conversation about Kroos, but the same one about the dropped guy.

It was easier in 2006, when there was 11-12 good players and the starting line up sorted itself out automatically. Now it's much more difficult and complex and there's several players that are too good for the bench, but have to end up there since there's no room for 17 players on the pitch. Kroos is probably one of those.
Rotation can solve this, but it has to be done wisely and in a consistent manner. Sometimes Löw gets overwhelmed and lost with all the choices he has, outsmarts himself and it results in a tactical disaster (e.g. in the semifinal against Italy).

Dear god, please don't remind me of the tactical brain-fart that was our formation against Italy -.-

The issue is not people with Germany NT... it's tactics. Everything is geared towards the attack and the distance between the defensive 4 and the midfield is too large.

Low wants to play like Spain except that Germany cannot pressure like Spain, doesn't have Alonso/Busquets/Xavi/Iniesta and has slow CBs... It just no possible. Those guys have been practicing these tactics since they were 12 at Barca and play it every week other than Alonso (and he lost his regular job methinks).

I think Low's tactics are really bad tbh. Easy on the eye, mind you. But he's forcing it. Players don't have enough time on NT to pick it up...

Ozil and Kroos can't play together IMO. Kroos is a good player, but not nearly as good as Ozil, and he can't play DM/CM. Maybe later in his career, but Gundogan is and will be a better player.

sportsczy wrote:The issue is not people with Germany NT... it's tactics. Everything is geared towards the attack and the distance between the defensive 4 and the midfield is too large.

Low wants to play like Spain except that Germany cannot pressure like Spain, doesn't have Alonso/Busquets/Xavi/Iniesta and has slow CBs... It just no possible. Those guys have been practicing these tactics since they were 12 at Barca and play it every week other than Alonso (and he lost his regular job methinks).

I think Low's tactics are really bad tbh. Easy on the eye, mind you. But he's forcing it. Players don't have enough time on NT to pick it up...

Well the Götze/Reus/Özil-generation have been in professional academies since they were 12 as well, and all German youth teams play essentially the same style. That's not the problem.
Neither do we have any problems with pressing, or CBs, Hummels, Boateng, and Höwedes are all fast as f*ck, and Badstuber still has a high top speed, just shitty acceleration.

The problem isn't that big. I still agree it's Löw, but you imply it's the system. It's not. Tactics are the problem. Against Italy, for example, he made us play defensively, and narrow, when Germanys strength is our attacking wing play, he just switched off two of our main threats.

Of course we'll lose if he does that

likeastar wrote:Ozil and Kroos can't play together IMO. Kroos is a good player, but not nearly as good as Ozil, and he can't play DM/CM. Maybe later in his career, but Gundogan is and will be a better player.

I agree that Özil is better, about 2 years of experience better, but the gap isn't that big. It's just that Özil fits Germanys style much better, Kroos is better in a slower buildup, like Bayern play, while Özil excels at counter-attacks, which is good for Real or Germany.

Sorry.... but Hummels and Per are incredibly slow. Badstuber too. Boateng is fast; but lacks tactical awareness. I think Howedes is the best of the lot, but Low doesn't like him for some reason lol.

Basically, they need cover like most CBs.

Playing in different academies at different clubs is not the same as playing with one academy in Barca under the exact system forever. I also watch some Bundi and every team does not play the same. That's just inaccurate.

But anyhow, it's better for us non-Germany supporters to see the stubbornness of Low. Germany is a formidable opponent... but not one you need to be very afraid of. Kind of like Argentina. There are big flaws that can be taken advantage of.

sportsczy wrote:The issue is not people with Germany NT... it's tactics. Everything is geared towards the attack and the distance between the defensive 4 and the midfield is too large.

Low wants to play like Spain except that Germany cannot pressure like Spain, doesn't have Alonso/Busquets/Xavi/Iniesta and has slow CBs... It just no possible. Those guys have been practicing these tactics since they were 12 at Barca and play it every week other than Alonso (and he lost his regular job methinks).

I think Low's tactics are really bad tbh. Easy on the eye, mind you. But he's forcing it. Players don't have enough time on NT to pick it up...

Completely agreed Sports, spot on.

VivaStPauli wrote:

likeastar wrote:Ozil and Kroos can't play together IMO. Kroos is a good player, but not nearly as good as Ozil, and he can't play DM/CM. Maybe later in his career, but Gundogan is and will be a better player.

I agree that Özil is better, about 2 years of experience better, but the gap isn't that big. It's just that Özil fits Germanys style much better, Kroos is better in a slower buildup, like Bayern play, while Özil excels at counter-attacks, which is good for Real or Germany.

Ozil is better passer, better with/without the ball, better vision, better control. Kroos has better shoots.

False.
Kroos is a briliant passer, just as good as Özil, but he's more of a midfield fulcrum, Kroos will play fewer deadly passes, but he will create space with his movement and passes. He will make sure your team has much more possession than it would have had otherwise.

If Pep really wants to make Bayern play like Barca, Kroos will be his Xavi.
Özil is different. Özil is much more of a forward, he's faster, his passes are more direct, albeit more risky.

And off the ball... How is Özil better? They both know how to press if instructed to, Özil is brilliant at finding spaces to run into, or dragging defenders out of position, Kroos is a decent tackler, is able to muscle weaker players out of his way, and has a good shot on him.

They are much different types of playmakers, even if both of them qualify as a classic No10, but Özils main asset isn't an advantage in quality, he just fits Germany better. A lot better.

dont bother viva, kizy compares players like it's a *bleep* video game, makes complete disregard of their style and the context in which they play. complely agree with you. But i would say that Kroos fits the classic n10 role a lot better than Ozil. Ozil is the modern expression of the position, lots of speed, not much control in the middle, but a lot more movements wide and a propensity to try to play the final ball a lot more.

That is correct, especially your point on Kroos being more of a classic #10 is accurate.

VivaStPauli wrote:

likeastar wrote:Ozil and Kroos can't play together IMO. Kroos is a good player, but not nearly as good as Ozil, and he can't play DM/CM. Maybe later in his career, but Gundogan is and will be a better player.

I agree that Özil is better, about 2 years of experience better, but the gap isn't that big. It's just that Özil fits Germanys style much better, Kroos is better in a slower buildup, like Bayern play, while Özil excels at counter-attacks, which is good for Real or Germany.

Özil is able to play possession footy and counter attack. He is a threat in multiple ways and can just run away from marking if someone sits too tightly on him. I don't even want to compare his first touch or passing with Kroos'.

Sorry, but with no amount of time or experience Kroos could raise to the height of Özl in AM or CAM position. He could become a much better CM though.

Mr Nick09 wrote:dont bother viva, kizy compares players like it's a *bleep* video game, makes complete disregard of their style and the context in which they play. complely agree with you. But i would say that Kroos fits the classic n10 role a lot better than Ozil. Ozil is the modern expression of the position, lots of speed, not much control in the middle, but a lot more movements wide and a propensity to try to play the final ball a lot more.

Classic #10 is dead because they don't get enough space in the central midfield to experss themselves. The development isn't new.
I don't think Kroos has got any advantages over Özil besides his shooting ability.

Götze is a much better contender for Özil at AM than Kroos. Also Nick, hate/ underestimate Özil all you want I'm more than sure that if we win the tie against ManU he'll have a massive hand...ähm... foot in it Benguain are a much bigger worry

VivaStPauli wrote:

likeastar wrote:Low should let these Bayern losers out, they lack winning mentality. Keep Lahm, Neuer and Muller in the first 11. Captain Khedira

Neuer
Lahm Hummels Howedes Schmelzer
Khedira Gundogan
Ozil
Muller Reus Gotze

I'd still take Schweinsteiger over Gündogan, but that is indeed a tasty lineup. Dat offensive creativity.

Gündogan was the best player on the field after Ribery in my honest opinion. He played much better than piggy.

Zealous wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Studzil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

One stud feeds off another. Like the ebb and flow of energy in the universe, light and dark, life and death, yin and yang. All we can do is marvel as the waves of beta males crash onto the shore of alpha that is Sami and Mesut for all eternity

Soul bro, you're the best

sportsczy wrote:Khedira was mainly awful other than the goal Z. He left his defense completely unprotected. Ribery and Valbuena were going through his area like he didn't exist lol. If it wasn't some truly pathetic finishing by all the France forwards (i can understand a save; but missing the target from 5-10 yards lol), he would've be one of the donkeys of the game.

Ozil, on the other hand, was amazing. in fact khedira's goal was all ozil. Nobody else makes that pass.

Gundogan was far more impressive to me. Sissoko didn't exist because of him. His technique was also impressive... you couldn't take the ball from him. Interestingly, when Kroos came in, things got easier in the midfield for France.

Agree, Khedira didn't play with 100%. He was bypassed too easily while Gündogan did everything he could. The gap between the defensive midfield and the back four was too big. J.Lö(w)

I think the difference between Kroos and Ozil showed itself last time Bayern played Madrid tbh.

The key of the game was Kroos dropping so deep in an intellegant fashion and overloading the Madrid midfield.

I prefer Kroos for this reason. Ozil is the more modern player, quick can dribble and takes up wide positions...but people, the game aint changed that much. If you overload the midfield and still have width, your going to have an advantage...Kroos frankly, does that better than Ozil.

I rate Ozil a better passer overall, but it's very close.

Kroos can be just as impactful as ozil in a team in that CAM position, and just as effective as well.

their style is too different to make a straight comparison. If Ozil excels playing that final ball so crucial in footy, Kroos has got the vision to build the play and to make everyone share the ball. not the same expression of their vision obviously.

but since Ozil is a better attacker and will show up more often on the assist sheet and on headlines but it doesnt mean that kroos style cant be just as nice. It depends of what you want in that position really. Ozil plays almost like a second forward sometimes, not the kind to try and dominate the whole when you put a quality DM in there. While Kroos will drop in between the DMs and bring the ball forward little by little.

their style is almost complete opposite in that position, but i dont see a gap between them. just a matter of style.

Mourinho doesn't give a damn about mdifield dominance unless we're 2 goals up. The reason is we can't counter as long as the other team doesn't attack with the ball.
What I'm trying to say Özil never had the chance to play in a possession based team. Their styles are not only dictated by their abilities but also by team mates and the system they play in. With proper passers who aren't called Di Maria etc. he could very well wreak havoc in a possession based team.
One of the biggest problem for Bayern was and is that they struggle to create against a properly organised PTB a lot. They look for Ribery to pull a rabbit out of his a** all the time. Passing and domination isn't enough to score goals and goals win games. Özil has got the extra technical edge over Kroos to cause trouble anywhere on the field by himself while Kroos is very much reliant on his team mates.

I also think the clasico encounter inbetween the two games distorted the showing against Bayern a lot.

sure the style of system in which they play influence them a lot, but we have nothing to weight how good ozil would be in a more possession oriented team. Dont think he would fail ultimately because he is too good technically, and his talent is too great. But i would be curious to see it, because the best of Ozil that i am currently seeing is a player that is always on the run, breaking at speed at playing a quick pass forward. when the game slows down it becomes a completely different affair, so i would love to see him making the transition

Oh Ozil can actually breaking at speed and playing quick pass forward now? I thought he's just good at taking set pieces

Reading recent posts in this thread you would think Kroos actually did something worth of note to warrant such glorious comparison to Ozil after a match where the other playmakers, Gundogan and Ozil outshone him by a large margin, yea I know he only came on in 2nd half but still.

We all know Schweinsteiger will still play ahead of Gundogan at least until 2014 no matter how good Gundogan has been in the past 2 years, just like at Euro 2012 where he played by his name and reputation only. So if it has to be one more midfielder to help out Schweinsteiger and Khedira I would pick Gundogan before considering Kroos. None in Germany came close to the kind of magic passes Ozil regularly pulled out, but Gundogan is probably the second best at that and isn't as static as Kroos as well. Didn't Low already kind of tried Kroos in such role in the semi against Italy at Euro and he wasn't anywhere near good? The totally out of form Schweinsteiger had to do a lot in such poor showing though, but other players like Khedira and Ozil still able to show something in that game, despite the team fell apart around them, Kroos did not.

Anyway with the amount of both talent and experience Ozil has, the question isn't about Ozil vs Kroos or anyone really, it's about whether it is better to put more people behind Ozil in midfield to support him, or leave it as usual with 3 passing option ahead of him. Ozil deservedly would still become the center of Germany attacking play in the years to come, he did nothing to warrant any doubt about it, he could be anywhere though be it in the hole as it is now, on the wing, or even as false 9.

Quick interjection:
Have you watched any Bayern game in the past two years, any Leverkusen matches in the year before that, or any Germany matches where Kroos got more than 20 minutes of game time?

Because you sound like you haven't. Your conclusions are flawed. I conclude, they are based on flawed assumptions.

You need to educate yourself.
I see how one could argue that Özil is still better, but to pretend like Kroos hasn't done anything of merit in the recent past is an utterly inane statement.

Not really saying that Kroos hasn't done anything of merit in recent past, he did, just as Gundogan. I just feel like after this match people should really talking more about Gundogan who actually impressive in this match, instead of Kroos who didn't really show anything (in this match). But that's just me

Yes, in this match. Which is my entire point.
You don't change tactics and lineups because of one match. And you don't dismiss your best players because they did bad as a sub "that one time".

I don't even disagree with that. Tbf, Gundogan has never got any real chance before this match, I'm looking forward to see more of him. Kroos on the other hand has got plenty of chances. The one time he started and played ahead of the pivot actually his least impressive performance with Germany, he was bossing when partnering in the pivot with Khedira (vs Nertherland) or Schweinsteiger (vs Brazil).

The Franchise wrote:I think the difference between Kroos and Ozil showed itself last time Bayern played Madrid tbh.

The key of the game was Kroos dropping so deep in an intellegant fashion and overloading the Madrid midfield.

I prefer Kroos for this reason. Ozil is the more modern player, quick can dribble and takes up wide positions...but people, the game aint changed that much. If you overload the midfield and still have width, your going to have an advantage...Kroos frankly, does that better than Ozil.

I get what you're saying and you're definitely not wrong but Ozil has never played in a possession orientated team so we can't know for sure if Kroos is actually better at that. Even then Ozil is an offensive player, he's at his best when he is creating something in front of goal. Take Khedira's goal, I've never seen Kroos do that (That could be my fault but if anyone wants to show me an example I'd gladly take that back).

So Kroos isn't a better offensive player than Ozil and it remains to be seen whether he can offer what Schweinsteiger, Khedira and Gundogan do in midfield. He's not as dynamic as Reus or Goetze and he isn't a centre forward. He's in a weird situation because he can offer something (more cultured passing in the middle of the park) but is that worth dropping one of the best offensive players in Ozil from the line up? I don't think so at all.