Barcelona - Athletic 21:00 CET

Hapless_Hans wrote:

futbol wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:I heard the commentator say that about the 12 training sessions as well, and I thought I heard wrong. How can it be? Don't you train every day? This number can't be right.

The majority of the training sessions aren't full preparations with the entire squad but rather routine recovery sessions. For example they had a game yesterday so they can't do a training game today to train tactics. Here is the schedule:



It's obvious that the team has still not adapted to Tata's ideas. Xavi and Iniesta are still trying to associate play and hold on to the ball instead of just releasing it quickly when possible. Or they try to do it and overdo it and we lose complete control.

Ok, interesting, wasn't really considering how few full days you get with a tight competition schedule in 4+ months.
But Tata didn't start training your team on the day of the first league game, right? There was a whole month before that, so maybe that's why I was wondering about that '12' number.

Also, does the fact that you have a recovery training day mean you can make no tactical exercises with the team? And on the pre-game training days, surely the focus is even more on tactics than on other days?
(Honest questions)

free_cat wrote:Maybe it's debatable that we are not hoofing more than before under Tata. But what it's not debatable is that our posession game under pressure is much worse. It's like Tata doesn't know how to implement this game. I think this is because he doesn't believe in it 100% and the players are hence less convinced and don't perform all the needed stuff to have a good posession game (movement, confidence, etc).

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Can I just point out that Bilbao have not lost to anyone at home this season, that Valverde is a class coach that we considered for the job as well, and that Martino was not the only reason we only got 2 shots in? I agree with many of the criticisms of him and this game, but this was a tough game. Athletic are 4th in the table, it's not as if we lost to Osasuna.

futbol wrote:This is a funny discussion right now because in the "why do goalkeepers hoof it" thread you are of the opinion that you can't train composure. Well. Adriano (and Alba) will never be as composed as King Cool Eric Abidal. That's why Adriano is doing what he does. Nothing to do with tactical instructions by Tata. The backline does panic more under pressure because the players have declined. Not by tactical design. They aren't attempting much more long balls than what Marquez used to do. They are attempting more clearances.

If Tata made any instructions to hoof it you wouldn't see Pinto's awkward passes "out of the back" resulting in throw-ins. Do you realize that Tata had only 12 full training sessions with this team so far?

Mr Nick09 wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

jibers wrote:

The Franchise wrote:Nah thats not true at all. Why wouldnt they be able to pass out of pressure? You dont need anything but a plan and composure, skill and technique for that...your telling me thats what we lack?

We couldnt pass out of pressure of Bayern and Madrid because we dont follow our philosphy at all. We didnt create midfield rotation, we didnt advance the fullbacks, we didnt form 3 at the back...stark different from before.

Also, in those games we didnt pressure back so we only won and therefore only retained the ball at the back, therefore not relieving any tension on the back 4.

Dani people have to accept that all that is over, that was Pep's tactics. Even the positional play has dissappeared, that ridiculous pressure was Peps as well, people saying Barcelona should play like before really need to get a grip, they never will because the coach in no longer there. Although I'm not sure what Tata is playing at.

Jibbers, like I said before, Pep's ideas or not, its irrelevant to weather they can be followed or not.

You think, some fodder coach like me can describe it and coach it (I do), coaches at that high level cannot? Of course they can. They just have their own way, which is fine, but unless it brings entertaining football and results, its not good enough.

is it me or you sound like MT here?

Clearly, it's not as simple as you make it sound. Plenty of people can understand it, yet implementing it on the field of pay is something else entirely isnt? otherwise everyone would do it, and coaches like Pep would have no value out there.

Like you said yourself, coaches have their own ways, and they stick with it. It's what they know, it's how they coach. Tata is coaching the way he knows how to, maybe without forcing too much of himself onto a philosophy that already exists so not to disturb it. So the question is, did you risk too much by taking someone outside of the philosophy you already had at the club.

I am no expert but there are some intrinsic differences between Bielsa school which Tata follows and what Pep did the past couple of years. and that's exactly what we are seeing, more long balls (amazing how many of those you play across field, reminded me of the way Bielsa played you the first time at san mames under the rain when he got to spain); the game is a lot more up and down, you look for the way forward each time, etc... looks more like you are transitioning to another style. Maybe it's even more telling that it's so apparent when you play big teams, games during which tata might be more insistent on his instructions, than when you play fodder teams where your natural way of playing expresses itself.

Stejo wrote:Sacking Martino is not overreacting in the slightest. The team has lost it's identity, been playing ugly hoofball all season long, scraped some lucky wins, won others due to the sheer quality of the players.

The coach however is clearly instructing a type of game that just doesn't suit the team's strengths. We don't have the height to win those deep crosses nor are particularily good in the transition game. As Pep once said we're a really bad team without the ball, so we should really try to be keeping it.

Who's fault is it when the defenders keep trying long range passes, bypassing our strongest players and everyone is making direct runs at the opposition regardless of poor dribbling skills? Under Pep and Tito the defenders were giving the ball to the excellent midfield who was patiently circulating it until somebody with actual dribbling skills (basically Messi or Iniesta) got free for a run.

We're not winning any second balls and even when we do (very rarely), instead of putting it into circulation to build up a new attack, whoever won it just runs up to a defender gung-ho and straight away loses it again. It's so frustrating to watch.

And those long diagonal balls... They could make some sense on the counter if we got a wide player free making a run I suppose. But right now, they're being done blindly, against organized defenses, aimed at marked players who are shorter than their marker. It boggles the mind.

As for "finished" Xavi, he doesn't seem that finished to me. I see him running just as much as he always was, still finding spaces. It's just that nobody passes the ball to him. It's ridiculous really. Just watch any game, focus on Xavi's movement in midfield. It's excellent. He's almost always unmarked, in open areas, ready to receive and supply. Does he receive? Hell no. Hoofball 60yards across.

Mr Nick09 wrote:But what was your team identity before Guardiola took over? people make it sound like you have been playing that way since the beginning of times, like they started watching barca right when Pep started winning.

alexjanosik wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:But what was your team identity before Guardiola took over? people make it sound like you have been playing that way since the beginning of times, like they started watching barca right when Pep started winning.

I was about to write this.A lot of us realize that we didnt always play the Pep way.But what also cant be denied is that the Pep way of playing brought about the most glorious period in the club's history and we won the most trophies playing that way.It was also the most beautiful way of playing the game.
So yes,it makes sense to keep playing that way,especially with the players we have.

alexjanosik wrote:I am with dani on this.Sure it was Pep's ideas but since then others have copied and are now doing this.
Why is it that we are not even a top 50 team on the planet when it comes to pressing now.All those other teams dont have pep and yet they press far far better than us.
So it can be done by others besides Pep.So if it can be done,then I want us to do it too.
Similarly with playing out the back.Plenty of teams have copied the Pep way of playing out the back under pressure and now do it successfully.They play out the back better than us.Again its not restricted to Pep.So if other teams can do it why not us.
We have the best technical group of players on the planet.
If random scrub teams can play out the back under pressure,why cant we?

Mr Nick09 wrote:that was my next point jibercus, Pep was a rare talent, expecting anyone to come in and continue the same trend is not understanding how special pep was. The intensity with which he coached and the level of exigence he commanded from his players. To have it all working as specially as it did, it took something unique. Those little differences between hoofing and always looking for Xavi, might sound simple on paper but they actually arent.

You can wish that another coach will come in and do the same, but it will likely take a long while, and the way your team play will be streamlined in the process.

Yet, that doesnt mean that you arent going to win trophies or be successful.

also, what are those many teams that pass better from the back than barca? and what are the 50 teams that press better than you?

in any case, the true miracle is that you had busi, xavi, iniesta, messi, pedro and another scrub, clusterfck of non athletic players, with such high technical level, be the best pressing unit of footy. Now your players are even older and you still want the same standards?

Hail Pep ffs

jibers wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:I am with dani on this.Sure it was Pep's ideas but since then others have copied and are now doing this.
Why is it that we are not even a top 50 team on the planet when it comes to pressing now.All those other teams dont have pep and yet they press far far better than us.
So it can be done by others besides Pep.So if it can be done,then I want us to do it too.
Similarly with playing out the back.Plenty of teams have copied the Pep way of playing out the back under pressure and now do it successfully.They play out the back better than us.Again its not restricted to Pep.So if other teams can do it why not us.
We have the best technical group of players on the planet.
If random scrub teams can play out the back under pressure,why cant we?

No team on the planet presses like you did before, noone. Give me one team that does, not even Bayern do it. As for the pressing, I can explain. The ball is being shifted a lot quicker to the forwards now, and so the players pour forward quicker and are a lot of the times out of position, so when they lose the ball the pressing would not be as organised, now with cesc up top it's even worse because it's like the team is trying to play in 2 different styles. The positional play (or lack of) means that players are not in good enough positions to press as a unit. Perhaps Martinos coaching is the problem here...

As for playing out of the back, well if he doesnt want them to, why should they? They don't retain the ball as well and so it would be a massive risk, again the positioning is way off...

Mr Nick09 wrote:that was my next point jibercus, Pep was a rare talent, expecting anyone to come in and continue the same trend is not understanding how special pep was. The intensity with which he coached and the level of exigence he commanded from his players. To have it all working as specially as it did, it took something unique. Those little differences between hoofing and always looking for Xavi, might sound simple on paper but they actually arent.

You can wish that another coach will come in and do the same, but it will likely take a long while, and the way your team play will be streamlined in the process.

Yet, that doesnt mean that you arent going to win trophies or be successful.

also, what are those many teams that pass better from the back than barca? and what are the 50 teams that press better than you?

in any case, the true miracle is that you had busi, xavi, iniesta, messi, pedro and another scrub, clusterfck of non athletic players, with such high technical level, be the best pressing unit of footy. Now your players are even older and you still want the same standards? in the normal world the rest of our teams live in, technically gifted players are lazy fcktards.

Hail Pep ffs

alexjanosik wrote:I dont intend to sit here and list 50 teams but basically every single team that has pressed against us recently has done a far better job of it than us(which is basically a lot of teams).
Only recently,I can name Ajax,Betis,Rayo as teams who pressed far better than us.Your own team when they have been up for it,have pressed against us far better than we do.
.

alexjanosik wrote:

jibers wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:I am with dani on this.Sure it was Pep's ideas but since then others have copied and are now doing this.
Why is it that we are not even a top 50 team on the planet when it comes to pressing now.All those other teams dont have pep and yet they press far far better than us.
So it can be done by others besides Pep.So if it can be done,then I want us to do it too.
Similarly with playing out the back.Plenty of teams have copied the Pep way of playing out the back under pressure and now do it successfully.They play out the back better than us.Again its not restricted to Pep.So if other teams can do it why not us.
We have the best technical group of players on the planet.
If random scrub teams can play out the back under pressure,why cant we?

No team on the planet presses like you did before, noone. Give me one team that does, not even Bayern do it. As for the pressing, I can explain. The ball is being shifted a lot quicker to the forwards now, and so the players pour forward quicker and are a lot of the times out of position, so when they lose the ball the pressing would not be as organised, now with cesc up top it's even worse because it's like the team is trying to play in 2 different styles. The positional play (or lack of) means that players are not in good enough positions to press as a unit. Perhaps Martinos coaching is the problem here...

As for playing out of the back, well if he doesnt want them to, why should they? They don't retain the ball as well and so it would be a massive risk, again the positioning is way off...

Even if we dont go back to the way we pressed before,cant we expect to press at the level of the other best teams?I also dont agree with your reasoning as to why we dont press.The problem is not that our players are out of position to press.The problem is that there is no coordinated pressing strategy.
Mostly we dont press and tend to back off.Even if we do press,its individual rather than collective.One of the forwards will be pressing while the others will be tracking back.Makes me go mental.
Other times you see Messi taking a walk in the park while the GK or CB calmly is there passing the ball 2 yards away.Other times you see Xavi coming forward to press because the forwards arent doing their job.
Just look at our last 2 games.Compare our pressing to the way Ajax and Bilbao pressed.World of difference.

alexjanosik wrote:If you recall alfred,I have complained about our lack of pressing for more than 2 seasons now.So yes,I am aware that our pressing was in decline even before Tata.In fact,it was second half of pep's last season that I think it started to go downhill.
But Martino had come in promising to fix the pressing.First few games were impressive but since then our pressing has been poor and he has not fixed it.
So yes,he deserves blame for not fixing something that he promised to fix.