Re: The Official Balon d'Or 2014 Thread

[Harmonica]

Well Van Gaal is right about the World Cup, but as it is a individual title, it should go to the best player of World Cup, not to some random player of World Cup winning team.

So was Messi the best player in 2010 World Cup or someone else deserve the Balon D Or over him?

Forlan wasn't in the same category then, as performing the whole year.

Messi and Cronaldo have performed almost the same this year, almost same stats, but Ballon d'Or should go to the World Cup's best player, more than CL's best player, don't you think? After all, Real won the final for Cronaldo, Argentina didn't win final for Messi. So if we are to honor individual performance, rationally it should be Messi?

[Hapless_Hans]

Messi and Cronaldo have performed almost the same this year, almost same stats, but Ballon d'Or should go to the World Cup's best player, more than CL's best player, don't you think?

So Müller it is then?

That's ok with me

He's also quite up there in your stats

After all, Real won the final for Cronaldo, Argentina didn't win final for Messi. So if we are to honor individual performance, rationally it should be Messi?

I love it when you say something so utterly alogical and finish it with "that's rational isn't it?"

[Harmonica]

Messi and Cronaldo have performed almost the same this year, almost same stats, but Ballon d'Or should go to the World Cup's best player, more than CL's best player, don't you think?

So Müller it is then?

That's ok with me

He's also quite up there in your stats

Please elaborate, Müller wasn't the best player at World Cup?

After all, Real won the final for Cronaldo, Argentina didn't win final for Messi. So if we are to honor individual performance, rationally it should be Messi?

I love it when you say something so utterly alogical and finish it with "that's rational isn't it?"

Can you elaborate how's that illogical? If we take team performance out of the equation, Cronaldo doesn't win CL. So does he still deserve Ballon d'Or having worse statistics over the year?

[Hapless_Hans]

"If we take team performance out of the equation, Cronaldo doesn't win CL."

I don't have to tell you how completely nonsensical this sentence is.

[Harmonica]

"If we take team performance out of the equation, Cronaldo doesn't win CL."

I don't have to tell you how completely nonsensical this sentence is.

It isn't illogical if you can't rationalize why it's illogical.

[Hapless_Hans]

"If we take team performance out of the equation, Cronaldo doesn't win CL."

I don't have to tell you how completely nonsensical this sentence is.

It isn't illogical if you can't rationalize why it's illogical.

Well, rationalizing the existence of illogical stuff is more your thing.

[Harmonica]

"If we take team performance out of the equation, Cronaldo doesn't win CL."

I don't have to tell you how completely nonsensical this sentence is.

It isn't illogical if you can't rationalize why it's illogical.

Well, rationalizing the existence of illogical stuff is more your thing.

I got to tell you, you have lot to say without any meaning.

[Hapless_Hans]

It isn't illogical if you can't rationalize why it's illogical.

Well, rationalizing the existence of illogical stuff is more your thing.

I got to tell you, you have lot to say without any meaning.

It has meaning, you just can't understand it.

[Harmonica]

Well, rationalizing the existence of illogical stuff is more your thing.

I got to tell you, you have lot to say without any meaning.

It has meaning, you just can't understand it.

You have to understand the original point first.

[Hapless_Hans]

I got to tell you, you have lot to say without any meaning.

It has meaning, you just can't understand it.

You have to understand the original point first.

The original point cannot be understood as, again, it was nonsensical.

[Harmonica]

It has meaning, you just can't understand it.

You have to understand the original point first.

The original point cannot be understood as, again, it was nonsensical.

You mean you didn't understand it?

This is now silly, I've got better things to do that talking to four year old's in Internet.

[Hapless_Hans]

You have to understand the original point first.

The original point cannot be understood as, again, it was nonsensical.

You mean you didn't understand it?

This is now silly, I've got better things to do that talking to four year old's in Internet.

I could probably be your father, son

[rwo power]

Neuer is by far the best goalkeeper in the world and the best I've ever seen but I agree with Dante Rwo, stats are almost meaningless for goalkeepers. This 0.27 goals conceded per game for example - would it really be that low if he was on a team that didn't control the game as much as Bayern?

Did you see Manuel Neuer when he still played for Schalke? He almost single handedly brought them into the CL semi final with his heroics. His stats might have been not that great, but he made the meaningful saves that still kept his team in play.

There are some games where it doesn't really matter who's in goal, Bayern would still keep a cleansheet.

This is a fallacity as it is actually very difficult for a goalkeeper to keep up his concentration in a dominant team like Bayern - and *when* he is asked to save a shot,then he is there.  

Stats ordinarily don't mean much, but stats like that for goalkeepers mean even less.

Well, then why people are always bringing up the stats for CR7 or Messi? Especially when it is obvious that CR7's sand Messi's stats are also skewed by the top teams they are in? If you compare his goal average for Portugal and ManUtd and his goal average for Real, then you can see that CR7 also only got his fairytale numbers because it is the team that feeds him more than anyone else.

[rwo power]

@Harmonica & Hans

Please go back on topic!

[Bankz]

Logical vs illogical, nonsensical vs understanding. So Who wins then? Lol

[Freeza]

CR7 shouldn't win Balon D'or because he couldn't beat 11 men on his own

[Hapless_Hans]

CR7 shouldn't win Balon D'or because he couldn't beat 11 men on his own

Stop caricaturizing Harmonica's argument and try to understand it in its full context:

CR7 wouldn't have beaten 11 men on his own. But as a full team they won the CL.
Messi also can't beat 11 men on his own. But at least his team didn't win anything either.
So that's why Messi should get the award, he didn't have to rely on his team to not win anything, while Ronaldo had to have a team around him to win.
Now I get it, makes perfect sense.

[Doc]

Messi using the team argument: Finished last season with only the Super Cup.

Messi using the individual argument: Didn't finish last season as top scorer in Spain or in Europe. Nor did he finish with the most assists in La Liga or Europe last season.

Yup, this is a clear win for Lionel Messi.

[Cruijf]

Did you see Manuel Neuer when he still played for Schalke? He almost single handedly brought them into the CL semi final with his heroics. His stats might have been not that great, but he made the meaningful saves that still kept his team in play.

That's exactly my point though: he definitely had a higher average goal concession rate than 0.27  that year but that doesn't mean anything in terms of how good he was. There are some goals no one can save and the fact of the matter is Neuer comes up against things like that much less at Bayern than he would at any other club.

This is a fallacity as it is actually very difficult for a goalkeeper to keep up his concentration in a dominant team like Bayern - and *when* he is asked to save a shot,then he is there.

Fair point, but my above argument still applies. Regardless of ability or concentration any goalkeeper would concede less goals at Bayern than Schalke

Well, then why people are always bringing up the stats for CR7 or Messi? Especially when it is obvious that CR7's sand Messi's stats are also skewed by the top teams they are in? If you compare his goal average for Portugal and ManUtd and his goal average for Real, then you can see that CR7 also only got his fairytale numbers because it is the team that feeds him more than anyone else.

Like I said, stats mean very little ordinarily, they just mean even less for goalkeepers.

[zigra]

Goals conceded are completely irrelevant when judging a goal keeper. The best goalkeeper in the world can concede tons of goals if the defense is shit. Yes strikers rely on their team aswell but not nearly as much as a keeper. There's other stuff you can judge a goalkeeper on but please not goals conceded.

[rwo power]

Well "goals conceded" does belong to the things to judge a goalie. If a goalies lets in too many goals, this is usually not because he only let in unsaveable balls. Often it is also a sign that he has difficulties to organise his defense.

As for Neuer in his Schalke days - he still was among the top keepers then where goals conceded where concerned. The problem was the inability of the Schalke attack to score goals (for example in 2010/11 where they reached the CL semi final, the Schalke attack were the 3rd worst in the BL with only 38 goals scored, while Neuer let in 44 goals which was the 4th best number.). Oh, and in 2008/09 and 2009/10, Neuer let in the fewest goals in the league, I just saw. With Schalke.

And I did mention the save percentage before, which is the goals per shots faced - and there you have Manuel Neuer far up, too (88.89% save percentage atm in the Bundesliga). This is a value that is a bit analogous to the effectivity of a striker - in that case it would be goals scored per shots on goal.

Another stat for a goalie would be the number of long passes that reach a fellow player and the number of attacks he initiated by pinpoint exact throws or kicks. And these are feats where Manuel Neuer excels as well.

[chad4401]

i think harmonica is saying that cr wasn't as decisive, in the cl win despite all his goals, i have heard jibers with similar arguments doesn't sound that ctazy, in relation to the state of the match and when cr scored, basically statpadding or not

[Magic Spray]

CR7 shouldn't win Balon D'or because he couldn't beat 11 men on his own

Stop caricaturizing Harmonica's argument and try to understand it in its full context:

CR7 wouldn't have beaten 11 men on his own. But as a full team they won the CL.
Messi also can't beat 11 men on his own. But at least his team didn't win anything either.
So that's why Messi should get the award, he didn't have to rely on his team to not win anything, while Ronaldo had to have a team around him to win.
Now I get it, makes perfect sense.

[Dante]

Hans

Well, I wasn't actually using the pass success as a means to say that because of that Neuer is better than CR7, I just found it funny as normally goalies have pass success rates much below that (to compare - Gigi: 81.5%, Casillas: 71.9%, Courtois: 56.1%, de Gea: 66.3%, Sommer 78.6%, Navas 64.1%, ter Stegen: 84%, Bravo: 76.6%, Hart: 59.6%, Weidenfeller: 63.3% - numbers for the leagues from whoscored.com).

As for the quality of his team mates - you can't really say that the quality of the Real players is so much below the Bayern players... As for risky passes - Neuer has an average of 8 long balls per match and most of them reach their targets, too.

One big point against CR7 is his lack of defensive work, as good teams really could exploit that quite a bit. If you look at a player like Robben, he is playing much more team-serving nowadays, and IMO things like that belong to the evaluation of a player, too.

Quality of team mates - i concede there , not sure why i said it like that. Let me rephrase that . Bayern compliments Neuer's extra quality ; distribution has indeed become very important for modern goalkeepers and i do believe Neuer is the very best at that , in part , because the team around him is well suited to receive that kind of play . Nevertheless , this is a bonus , i don't think it's something we should base comparisons on. We shouldn't look to compare that kind of statistic between them , because the data hold quite the different information in each case.

Ronaldo , on the same subject , also has a team full of quality around him , of course. Yet when Ronaldo is in possesion of the ball , almost always , is under a lot more threat and pressure , under constant risk of losing the ball . And more often than not , he will be on the counter . I can expand on this heavily , but i believe you get where i am going with this. It really isn't the same . That's honestly not to take anything away from Neuer ; no . If Ronaldo does lose the ball , it's ok , a player lost the ball , not the end of the world. If Neuer does lose the ball however , it will mean a goal. He doesn't have the slightest room for mistake and under that light , not only his passing rate is impressive , but also worthy of consideration. But as you noted , against other GKs ; it doesn't really hold it's own as an argument against Ronaldo .

As for Ronaldo's defensive work. Again , you look too much in the details and the side objectives ; Ronaldo's job isn't to defend , is to either score goals himself or help create them . From the moment he does that , anything else is a bonus , not a minus if he doesn't . Same goes for Neuer , as i said earlier. Goalkeeping? He's n1 , the rest? Again prove why he is so good , but that's bonus effects. Not really that much a solid argument to be subverted towards anyone's favour.

[Harmonica]

i think harmonica is saying that cr wasn't as decisive, in the cl win despite all his goals, i have heard jibers with similar arguments doesn't sound that ctazy, in relation to the state of the match and when cr scored, basically statpadding or not

Cronaldo won CL and Copa because of his team

Copa

3-0 goal against Osasuna
4-0, 5-0 penaldos against Atletico
Didn't play in final

UCL

3-0, 6-0, 7-1, 8-2 goals against Shalke
3-0 goal against Dortmund
4-0, 5-0 goals against Bayern
4-1 dived penalty against Atletico

As this is a individual title, winning team title, when you aren't decisive shouldn't matter.

Actually I haven't heard single valid reason why Cronaldo should win Ballon d'Or, all I've heard he should just win it. Which is ridiculous, and obvious consequence of media manipulation and them saying: "Here me out sheeps of the media, vote Cronaldo, because the money is there".

It should be

1. Messi (best player of World Cup, best statistics over the year)
2. Neuer (best goalie, won the World Cup)
3. Benzema (if you are going to choose someone from CL-winning team, it should be Benzema. Better than Cronaldo in ball both Clasico's, more decisive in CL, played in Copa Final and didn't flop in the World Cup. And his statistics arent any worse than Cronaldo's when you take penaldos out.)

It's ridiculous that Cronaldo is even in discussion of Top 3 this year.

[Dante]

Neuer is by far the best goalkeeper in the world and the best I've ever seen but I agree with Dante Rwo, stats are almost meaningless for goalkeepers. This 0.27 goals conceded per game for example - would it really be that low if he was on a team that didn't control the game as much as Bayern? There are some games where it doesn't really matter who's in goal, Bayern would still keep a cleansheet.

Stats ordinarily don't mean much, but stats like that for goalkeepers mean even less.

To be clear however, I do think it should be Neuer-Robben-Ronaldo.

I didn't mean it that way.. stats can never be meaningless and this goes for goalkeepers as well . Stats aren't the main case either .. Stats are simply important and can reveal all kinds of stuff , but without the context , they will tell either half-truths , or half-lies . Also , i did not imply that Neuer's stats are so good because of his teammates in front of him . They simply compliment a bonus side of his play , they augment-enhance it if you like . I said that solely because Rwo brought passing as an argument , otherwise i would never have reason to say this ; Neuer is simply put brilliant , he would be so effective anywhere , perhaps with even more praise to go with . Bayern is too dominant as you say and sometimes it raises eyebrows for the GK . Neuer keeping this lvl intact regardless only shows his worth and sporting virtue . He really is a magnifiscent goalkeeper , Bayern or not.

Anyway , it was more like , you can't really compare apples and oranges ; not that oranges are uneatable (is that a word lol) . I just think both players should be judged on their own merit and not between them . It's really hard to draw solid conclusions from a comparison of this kind . You can't use Ronaldo's goals against Neuer , nor Neuer's saves against Ronaldo. You can't either compare common ground here .

-

I personally think and that's an old opinion of mine , that this award shouldn't even exist , at least not in a such official form. There's no , 1 absolute best player in the world and he will never exist either . The best , is the best at everything . Nobody in football can be the best at everything , no matter how talented or how hard he trains . So , theoriticaly speaking always , FIFA should either split BODs into forward-midfielder-defender-goalkeeper awards.. or abolish it and make it unofficial , like it was.. sure it has meaning even this way , but if one sits down to analyse and take the scientific method , you can't really say there ever was the best player in the world . For instance , the best tennis player will do everything required in tennis better than everybody else , hence such an award will be 100% valid , under any circumstances.

That doesn't exist in football , this kind of 'award' is reserved for the team when they win a cup e.t.c , being a team sport . Under that light , giving an individual , best player award in football , is kinda out of balance. Strictly speaking , no one ever was nor will be the best footballer in the world , simply because someone else will be doing something in football better than him . Maybe i'm not judging this right , idk , but each and every season , all kinds of different criteria pop up and the reason is , deep down , that this award shouldn't exist in the form it does.

Let's say , if Ronaldo would win it , it should be Best forward in the world ; if Neuer , Best GK in the world award e.t.c . But anyway , just food for thought . The masses of fans don't care about any of that , it will never happen.

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