Re: The Official Balon d'Or 2014 Thread

by Harmonica Wed 19 Nov - 7:46:43

2014 (18.11) in official games

Messi 46 (7pen) goals, 25 assists = directly part of 71 goals

Cronaldo 52 (10pen) goals, 16 assists = directly part of 68 goals

Benzema 31 (1pen) goals, 21 assists = directly part of 52 goals

Müller 29 (6pen) goals, 14 assists = directly part of 43 goals
Bale 22 (0pen) goals, 19 assists = directly part of 41 goals

Neymar 31 (0pen) goals, 8 assists = directly part of 39 goals
Zlatan 28 (4pen) goals, 11 assists = directly part of 39 goals
Di Maria 10 (0pen) goals, 27 assists = directly part of 37 goals
James 20 (3pen) goals, 17 assists = directly part of 37 goals
Götze 23 (0pen) goals, 13 assists = directly part of 36 goals
Suarez 17 (0pen) goals, 18 assists = directly part of 35 goals (not shortlisted)
Robben 20 (3pen) goals, 15 assists = directly part of 35 goals

Costa 25 (2pen) goals, 3 assists = directly part of 28 goals
Toure 16 (5pen) goals, 9 assists = directly part of 25 goals
Hazard 13 (7pen) goals, 10 assists = directly part of 23 goals
Pobga 9 (0pen) goals, 12 assists = directly part of 21 goals

Kroos 8 (0pen) goals, 11 assists = directly part of 19 goals
Iniesta 3 (0pen) goals, 11 assists = directly part of 14 goals
Schweinsteiger 6 (0pen) goals, 4 assists = directly part of 10 goals

Defenders

Lahm
Mascherano
Ramos

Goalies

Neuer

by Dante Thu 20 Nov - 2:22:19

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/30117404

Ballon d'Or 2014: World Cup winner deserves prize - Van Gaal

A German player should win the 2014 Ballon d'Or after their World Cup success in Brazil, says Manchester United manager Louis van Gaal.
Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are tipped to be the main contenders, with United's Angel Di Maria also nominated for the world's best player award.
"You always have to win something and the best thing to win is the World Championship," Van Gaal told MUTV.
"I hope it shall be a German player because they deserve it."
He added: "In Germany, the level of the matches in the Bundesliga is also very high."

The 63-year-old, who as Netherlands coach led his side to the World Cup semi-finals, also said he was surprised to have been nominated in the coach of the year category at the Fifa awards, which take place in January 2015.
Van Gaal took over as United manager in the summer, charged with revitalising the Old Trafford club after a disappointing 2013-14 campaign that saw David Moyes sacked after 10 months in charge, but United took just 13 points from their opening 10 games - their worst start to a league campaign since 1986.
"It's unbelievable when you see the results of Manchester United - it's unbelievable," Van Gaal said.

Van Gaal

Not sure if i agree with him about the player that should win the BOD . I would actually like it if a German player won it , even Neuer of course , but i think Ronaldo deserves it again this time. Tbh i don't care and i honestly believe everybody has it certain Ronaldo will eventually win it . The reason i post this is because of Van Gaal's bewilderment about his nomination lol

Which German could/should win it , though?

by Hapless_Hans Thu 20 Nov - 2:43:53

No idea which German player it should be tbh. Could be Neuer or Lahm. If we go by performance at the WC, it should probably be Boateng lol. It's not going to happen anyway.

However I really think Robben should be at least top 3 this year. He performs in EVERY game.

by BarrileteCosmico Thu 20 Nov - 2:50:03

The problem is that when the winning team doesn't have a single star player (see Spain 2010, Inter treble champs, Germany 2014) then the popularity choices win out

by Hapless_Hans Thu 20 Nov - 2:55:53

BarrileteCosmico wrote:The problem is that when the winning team doesn't have a single star player (see Spain 2010, Inter treble champs, Germany 2014) then the popularity choices win out

Yes. I'd also add that I think it's very unfortunate defensive players, or ..ahem.. goal keepers, are by now seemingly by default not considered 'star players'.

Of course, given the form Ronaldo is in you'd indeed be hard pressed to make the case for any indivual player of the German team for an individual award. I do still think though that in a WC year, his terrible performance there should be a problem.
I know it won't be though.

Robben however, performed both for club and country, arguably the best player in the WC too hmm

by Dante Thu 20 Nov - 2:57:27

Agreed about Robben . I never bothered to check who's the top 3 actually , even though i do know one is Ronaldo and the other one is Neuer , so i guess the 3rd one must be Messi ..(right?) so , Neuer is Neuer and he also won the WC , you can see why Robben isn't there . Messi also reached the final , really , he either deserves to be in the top 3 or not , unless Robben actually won the WC or at least the CL , he wouldn't be there instead of Messi. But i agree , he's been fantastic and he would have deserved a top 3 place .

by BarrileteCosmico Thu 20 Nov - 3:05:03

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Yes. I'd also add that I think it's very unfortunate defensive players, or ..ahem.. goal keepers, are by now seemingly by default not considered 'star players'.

Of course, given the form Ronaldo is in you'd indeed be hard pressed to make the case for any indivual player of the German team for an individual award. I do still think though that in a WC year, his terrible performance there should be a problem.
I know it won't be though.

Robben however, performed both for club and country, arguably the best player in the WC too

Was he injured in the semi-finals? Because I can't remember his performance at all :coffee:

by Hapless_Hans Thu 20 Nov - 3:13:06

looool.. come on, BC, don't be mean to Robben, if the talk of a player "carrying" a team ever was true, it was with Robben and that mediocre bus-parking Netherlands side.

by Valkyrja Thu 20 Nov - 3:14:12

This Neuer for Balon d'Or thing is getting over the top. He wasn't the best GK last season and not even at the WC.

by BarrileteCosmico Thu 20 Nov - 3:16:33

Hapless_Hans wrote:looool.. come on, BC, don't be mean to Robben, if the talk of a player "carrying" a team ever was true, it was with Robben and that mediocre bus-parking Netherlands side.

I thought LVG was carrying that squad with gimmicks like the Krul substitution and the water break change of formation VAGI

by Hapless_Hans Thu 20 Nov - 3:25:57

regarding the 2010 Spain side, I'm still baffled that such absolute stellar and exceptional players in Xavi and Iniesta were never awarded this thing.
This fixation on Messi and Ronaldo really has impoverished the award as well as the perception of the game as a whole.

No way you can tell me what Xavi did for Barca (and Spain) was not just as awe-inspiring as the incredible stuff Messi did.

by Dante Thu 20 Nov - 3:37:35

Being mentioned as a worthy candidate , which he is , is getting over the top? If you read more closely , you will see who is really pointed out as the almost certain eventual winner . No exaggerations about Neuer , though . If anything , Neuer should be getting a lot more talk and praise than that.

As for Neuer's last season , all i am going to say is that i never saw a better GK , anywhere. Neither in the world cup . Who would you say was better than Neuer last season ?

Hapless_Hans wrote wrote:regarding the 2010 Spain side, I'm still baffled that such absolute stellar and exceptional players in Xavi and Iniesta were never awarded this thing.
This fixation on Messi and Ronaldo really has impoverished the award as well as the perception of the game as a whole.

No way you can tell me what Xavi did for Barca (and Spain) was not just as awe-inspiring as the incredible stuff Messi did.

as unfortunate as it is that a player like Xavi never won it and i like what you said there about perception.. yeah , for a long time now it's their award , there's no room for others . And frankly , i am not sure if it could , or if that should , be different. We are talking about 2 rare players , the likes of which we will wait a really long time to see again , we may as well not see their likes again in our lifetime . Maybe Xavi and Iniesta , well certainly , deserved better , but on the other hand , these two doing what they do all these years.. not sure what else could have been other than a two-man pissing contest.

by Hapless_Hans Thu 20 Nov - 3:46:48

no, I get that, and they 'deserve' all those awards, but it still is a narrowing down of what football is.
Lahm, Xavi, etc pp are all rare players too, you merely can't point to the most obvious numbers in football (goals) to back it up.

by BarrileteCosmico Thu 20 Nov - 3:53:13

Hapless_Hans wrote:regarding the 2010 Spain side, I'm still baffled that such absolute stellar and exceptional players in Xavi and Iniesta were never awarded this thing.
This fixation on Messi and Ronaldo really has impoverished the award as well as the perception of the game as a whole.

No way you can tell me what Xavi did for Barca (and Spain) was not just as awe-inspiring as the incredible stuff Messi did.

I think they cancel each other out. Spain won but it was not clear who Spain's best performer was, so some people voted for Xavi and others for Iniesta whereas if only one of them shined he would have probably taken the bulk of the votes.

by Dante Thu 20 Nov - 3:58:06

Not sure what to say , it's always been this way?

There's talk about that since Maldini made it to 3rd and when Khan came 3rd after 2002 WC e.t.c , it's nothing new. The sport loves goals and the forwards who score them , it's the end result everybody loves best.

Perhaps invested fans who are more analytical and have a more spherical view have more to say about it all , but i don't really see any player who could have won it instead. Never mention how many great players never even won such an award without a Messi or a Ronaldo preventing them. Xavi and i guess even Lahm could be added to that special 'league' of rare player who never won the bod.

And besides, these days it isn't even just about the sport anymore. Just look at Van Gaal's statement . Fandom , media , statistics(see Harmonica lvls) , superstar-celebrity status , e.t.c , things work to a forward's favour , the ever famous of the sport , more now than ever before.

by rwo power Thu 20 Nov - 5:11:10

Dante wrote:Which German could/should win it , though?

Manuel Neuer of course.

He's 100 percent consistent in all matches for club and country and barely even makes a mistake. His save percentage atm is a whopping 88.89 percent, his passing accuracy is a staggering 86 percent (there are many midfielders who would probably kill for that precision) and the number of clean sheets he keeps is extraordinary (atm 8 in 11 BL matches).

He redefined goal-keeping with his playing style, and he wasn't only the best keeper in the Bundesliga in the last season, but also in this season he leads the stats not only in the Bundesliga (with 0.27 goals against per match), but also in the Top5 leagues in Europe with 0.44 goals against in all competitions (second best is Gigi at Juve with 0.53 goals against over all competitions).

Oh, and did I mention that he was not only the best keeper in Europe (GK of the UEFA Top11), but also the best keeper of the World Cup?

by Dante Thu 20 Nov - 5:28:06

Rwo , i am a fan of Neuer and was fairly convinced of his quality even before Bayern fans stopped booing him in his first season . Like i said earlier , i never saw a better gk last season , in any competition whatsoever.

You don't even need stats to make a point here , at least you shouldn't . Anybody who sees anything less than the best GK in the world in Neuer , has some issues with him , it can't be explained otherwise. And i agree once again , this season too he remains the best under the posts.. For me personally , ever since Bayern won the CL under Heynckes he remains the best.

The point of my question though was kinda out of interest and mostly rhetorical , hence the could/should . Ronaldo will win it anyway . So , i was just saying , just for the sake of it Proud

by rwo power Thu 20 Nov - 5:49:43

Well, the only thing that CR7 has for him is actually the number of goals he scored for Real Madrid and as well the number of goals he scored for his NT in the European competitions.

Interestingly his conversion rate is pretty abysmal and his defensive work is not up to par either. Funnily his passing success (82%) is even worse than Manuel Neuer's!

As for the amount of goals he scored - they didn't help Portugal one single bit, so for the NT the sheer number is actually meaningless.

Similarly, what use is being the topscorer in the Spanish League in 2013/14, when your club only ends on the third place? Yes, he has the CL speaking for him, but he didn't help Real to the League title nor Portugal out of the group stage in the World cup.

And as the Ballon d'Or is for the full year 2014 (as weird as that is), IMO CR7 can't be considered the world's best player in that year. He would deserve the golden boot for the amount of goals scored, but not the prize for the actually best player.

by Dante Thu 20 Nov - 6:11:29

That about the pass success rate , that's invalid. Ronaldo will attempt much more difficult passes than Neuer . Although Neuer doesn't have the slightest room for mistake , his quality and the quality of his teammates and Pep's plans maximize his success rate. On the other end Ronaldo, has to constantly risk losing the ball , much more than Neuer. Ronaldo has actually become a lot better with passing the ball and even assisting significantly more in 2014 , so not sure if you could give this to Neuer.

As for goals , well , there it's not fair to say anything , right? The one is a forward and a beast of a goal scoring machine and the other stops them. I can't really talk about any of this , apples and oranges really. Ronaldo's goals count too much on their own , but you can't use that neither for or against Neuer.

Good arguments about the league and , maybe , about Portugal , with the NTs i am much more sceptical and differentiate according to each player.. Neuer here deserves all the praise he can get and that's what his main weapon is , even winning best GK of the comp. Ronaldo doesn't have much to show here , but let's not forget what a mess Portugal was anyway , had Neuer been in his stead he wouldn't exactly change their fortunes either. A team either can , or cannot . Portugal was a disgrace in that WC and imo it's unfair to Ronaldo to use that fully against him. Neither did he chose that nor he did actively help bring Portugal down , he was their only hope in a team full of mediocrity.

Ronaldo's big advantage , apart from all the goals , is the CL which wasn't just about any other edition , but the La Decima the so famous big goal of his club's project. Ronaldo came to achieve that and he finally did last season. With a bang. There's no reason to post how many he scored in the last edition of the CL and how he has continued on like a madman ever since. He also scored in the final.

Neuer has his own great moments , for instance lifting the WC counts for more than the annual CL , but what else is there to be said , despite statistics and all that , the majority always loved the goals and those who score them . It's what it is , unfortunately or not. I would have loved to see a goalie lift such an award , but maybe it's not this season after all.

Actually and it's a pitty for Neuer , Ronaldo has some proper , justified advantage on this one. He really has a phenomenal 2014 so far , apart from his WC , which has been well noted he was troubled by injuries. Neuer is his own beast though , whatever happens , being in the top 3 is an immense honor anyway.

by rwo power Thu 20 Nov - 6:32:18

Well, I wasn't actually using the pass success as a means to say that because of that Neuer is better than CR7, I just found it funny as normally goalies have pass success rates much below that (to compare - Gigi: 81.5%, Casillas: 71.9%, Courtois: 56.1%, de Gea: 66.3%, Sommer 78.6%, Navas 64.1%, ter Stegen: 84%, Bravo: 76.6%, Hart: 59.6%, Weidenfeller: 63.3% - numbers for the leagues from whoscored.com).

As for the quality of his team mates - you can't really say that the quality of the Real players is so much below the Bayern players... As for risky passes - Neuer has an average of 8 long balls per match and most of them reach their targets, too.

One big point against CR7 is his lack of defensive work, as good teams really could exploit that quite a bit. If you look at a player like Robben, he is playing much more team-serving nowadays, and IMO things like that belong to the evaluation of a player, too.

by Harmonica Thu 20 Nov - 8:25:21

Well Van Gaal is right about the World Cup, but as it is a individual title, it should go to the best player of World Cup, not to some random player of World Cup winning team.

Messi was the best player of World Cup, and has performed the best during the full year, Neuer has also played great the whole year and won World Cup. That's why I've Messi and Neuer top 2.

It's sad that there is thief like Cronaldo who will win it, just being the biggest media cash cow and because Real Madrid won CL for him.

by LeVersacci Thu 20 Nov - 15:46:15

Harmonica wrote:It's sad that there is thief like Cronaldo who will win it, just being the biggest media cash cow and because Real Madrid won CL for him.

http://new1.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/4908397+_a6e1e9b41cfa7a28f275d277e71bcc64.jpg

by Cruijf Thu 20 Nov - 16:15:36

Neuer is by far the best goalkeeper in the world and the best I've ever seen but I agree with Dante Rwo, stats are almost meaningless for goalkeepers. This 0.27 goals conceded per game for example - would it really be that low if he was on a team that didn't control the game as much as Bayern? There are some games where it doesn't really matter who's in goal, Bayern would still keep a cleansheet.

Stats ordinarily don't mean much, but stats like that for goalkeepers mean even less.

To be clear however, I do think it should be Neuer-Robben-Ronaldo.

by zigra Thu 20 Nov - 17:42:09

Dante wrote:We are talking about 2 rare players , the likes of which we will wait a really long time to see again , we may as well not see their likes again in our lifetime .

I always find it strange when people say stuff like that. Expectional players are the norm. Every footballing great I can think of has played in the last 60 years. Di Stefano, Puskas, Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Maradona, van Basten, (Messi and Ronaldo themselve) and more.
We get those "once in a generation" players quite often I have to say. We might have the next one in Neymar already.

by M99 Thu 20 Nov - 18:25:09

Harmonica wrote:Well Van Gaal is right about the World Cup, but as it is a individual title, it should go to the best player of World Cup, not to some random player of World Cup winning team.

So was Messi the best player in 2010 World Cup or someone else deserve the Balon D Or over him?

by Harmonica Thu 20 Nov - 19:10:10

M99 wrote:
Harmonica wrote:Well Van Gaal is right about the World Cup, but as it is a individual title, it should go to the best player of World Cup, not to some random player of World Cup winning team.

So was Messi the best player in 2010 World Cup or someone else deserve the Balon D Or over him?

Forlan wasn't in the same category then, as performing the whole year.

Messi and Cronaldo have performed almost the same this year, almost same stats, but Ballon d'Or should go to the World Cup's best player, more than CL's best player, don't you think? After all, Real won the final for Cronaldo, Argentina didn't win final for Messi. So if we are to honor individual performance, rationally it should be Messi?

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