Re: USA gun violence thread

by Unique Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:04 pm

Betty La Fea wrote:
Clutch wrote:
DuringTheWar wrote:I've read that people going out jogging in the rougher areas of the US often carry 20 dollar bills so potential muggers won't get offended and shoot them in the face for wasting their time. I'm not sure if that sort of thing happens in other countries but I'd imagine the prospect of facing a mugger in the US is more likely to result in you getting shot than elsewhere.
I've never heard of that and I live in the US. People jog in nice areas, no one will go jog in a bad neighborhood. Most people who live in improvish areas dont exercise and security is one of many reason why they dont. If you go to a run down area no one will be jogging.

They exercise, just at open areas like courts and others with clear visibility towards main streets where officers patrol.

is crime in the USA that bad. Shocked

by Clutch Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:36 am

Betty La Fea wrote:
Clutch wrote:
DuringTheWar wrote:I've read that people going out jogging in the rougher areas of the US often carry 20 dollar bills so potential muggers won't get offended and shoot them in the face for wasting their time. I'm not sure if that sort of thing happens in other countries but I'd imagine the prospect of facing a mugger in the US is more likely to result in you getting shot than elsewhere.
I've never heard of that and I live in the US. People jog in nice areas, no one will go jog in a bad neighborhood. Most people who live in improvish areas dont exercise and security is one of many reason why they dont. If you go to a run down area no one will be jogging.

They exercise, just at open areas like courts and others with clear visibility towards main streets where officers patrol.

I was mostly talking about jogging. There are probably a select few that do jog in bad neighborhoods but its definitely not that common compared to the better neighborhoods

by McAgger Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:42 am

Unique wrote:
Betty La Fea wrote:
Clutch wrote:
I've never heard of that and I live in the US. People jog in nice areas, no one will go jog in a bad neighborhood. Most people who live in improvish areas dont exercise and security is one of many reason why they dont. If you go to a run down area no one will be jogging.

They exercise, just at open areas like courts and others with clear visibility towards main streets where officers patrol.
is crime in the USA that bad.

USA is too big to just say crime in USA. Every state has a different crime rate. I've never been scared to walk around in the middle of the night any where in Arizona except maybe downtown Phoenix. Same when I lived in San Diego.

For example downtown Detroit is famous for unbelievable high crime rate, so I wouldn't go around walking in the middle of ghettos over there.

People make too much of crime in US. I've only been mugged once in my whole life and that was my own fault for being out at 5am in the middle of downtown. And that was by a weak ass crackhead that I would be able to beat the shit out of 100% of the time. Never else have I been remotely afraid for my safety from criminals living in the US.

Hell when I went backpacking through Europe at 18, I was worried shitless I'd get mugged.

by VivaStPauli Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:32 am

Yeah I was in San Diego, it's basically just one huge mix of retirement home and amusement park, I'm sure it has the odd sketchy neighborhood, but downtown just seems incredibly benign, especially since the criminal element seems to have this gentleman's agreement to just move it to Tijuana.

by DuringTheWar Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:21 pm

RedOranje wrote:
It irks me just how eager the media seem to be to declare this "terrorism" (with the HEAVILY implied "Islamic/Foreign" prefix) even as they repeatedly point out how little clear information they have on the situation.

This irked me https://mobile.twitter.com/benshapiro/status/672789005218385920

I mean that's gone through the prisms of about a dozen different narratives, with a bit of slander thown in for fun, before making it to press.

Another thing irking me are the implications being floated around that a slightly right wing Christian Jew is the real baddie for provoking Farouk into a killing spree, because islamophobia....

Is it possible for the left not to have an aneurysm because the killers aren't white conservative or Christian? Did you know there was a planned parenthood somewhere nearby? I do, thanks to liberal media Molenation

by DuringTheWar Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:17 pm

msnbc are searching the guys house

Apparently the FBI are done and collected evidence, but the reporter found SHREDDED DOCUMENTS left in the bin. WTF?

by VivaStPauli Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:46 pm

It doesn't irk me at all that this is declared terrorism, but it does indeed irk me that the shooting involving the so-called abortion clinic was not.

by rwo power Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:05 am

VivaStPauli wrote:It doesn't irk me at all that this is declared terrorism, but it does indeed irk me that the shooting involving the so-called abortion clinic was not.

True. One may be fundamentalist Islamic terrorism, but the other is fundamentalist Christian terrorism. Not really much difference.

Interesting article here...

"White supremacists and other non-Muslim extremists have been responsible for nearly twice the number of deaths in the U.S. as jihadist attacks since 9/11, a new study by a Washington research center has found."

"'Law enforcement agencies around the country have told us the threat from Muslim extremists is not as great as the threat from right-wing extremists,' Dr. Kurzman told The Times."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3139077/White-extremists-killed-Muslim-fundamentalists-9-11-claims-report-ignores-death-toll-Americans-abroad.html

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/10-worst-terror-attacks-extreme-christians-and-far-right-white-men

by VivaStPauli Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:29 am

Same in Germany, every other week a bunch of right-wing radicals gang up on some poor immigrant, or punk rocker, or leftist, and beat the ever-loving shit out of them, if they don't just kill them outright, and it's still not seen as the organized campaign of terror that it is, the police still pretends it's "isolated incidents" - what a f*cking farce.

by DuringTheWar Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:59 am

RWO everything you said might be true for all I know, but read this please, isn't it what you are doing?

https://www.facebook.com/Dr.Gad.Saad/posts/1633710180215153

Is Mr Saad wrong? Are all these other issues only ever possible to talk about immediately after and in connection with a non-right wing person doing something shitty?

by El Messico Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:09 am

rwo power wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:It doesn't irk me at all that this is declared terrorism, but it does indeed irk me that the shooting involving the so-called abortion clinic was not.
True. One may be fundamentalist Islamic terrorism, but the other is fundamentalist Christian terrorism. Not really much difference.

Interesting article here...

"White supremacists and other non-Muslim extremists have been responsible for nearly twice the number of deaths in the U.S. as jihadist attacks since 9/11, a new study by a Washington research center has found."

"'Law enforcement agencies around the country have told us the threat from Muslim extremists is not as great as the threat from right-wing extremists,' Dr. Kurzman told The Times."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3139077/White-extremists-killed-Muslim-fundamentalists-9-11-claims-report-ignores-death-toll-Americans-abroad.html

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/10-worst-terror-attacks-extreme-christians-and-far-right-white-men

I just read yesterday in the NYT that Islamic and non-Islamic terrorism deaths are approx. equal since 9/11.

Here it is:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/12/02/us/california-mass-shooting-san-bernardino.html

by rwo power Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:39 am

@DuringTheWar

I don't think that post you linked applies to my point.

My point was that there is terrorism that is caused by Islamist extremists, but the numerous killings that are caused by White supremacists and Christian Right extremists are as much terrorism as the Islamist terrorism, especially as there are often organised groups behind that too (often fundamentalist Christian groups like "Army of God" or so).

And to make the circle to gun control - in an article I read yesterday they wrote that the guns acquired by the Islamists are only partly acquired idividually, while practically all of the guns used in the white extremist shooting were acquired by them individually.

So wouldn't it make sense to require people to go through a check whether they are psychologically fit to handle a weapon after all?

I'm still checking if I find that site again that contained which of the criminals got their weapons where from. Ah, here is is - category "Weapons": http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/analysis.html

by Unique Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:43 pm

ban religion along with the guns.

by Myesyats Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:55 pm

Unique wrote:ban religion along with the guns.

Even if those things didn't exist people would find something else to argue about and other ways to fight between each other. It's just how the world works.

by Unique Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:17 pm

linetty wrote:
Unique wrote:ban religion along with the guns.
Even if those things didn't exist people would find something else to argue about and other ways to fight between each other. It's just how the world works.

by Guest Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:53 pm

linetty wrote:
Unique wrote:ban religion along with the guns.
Even if those things didn't exist people would find something else to argue about and other ways to fight between each other. It's just how the world works.

You take guns away and Syed and his small little wife couldnt do half of what they did in San Bernardino though. That is my big issue with it. We have to really get rid of these guns.

Also, its looking with this issue, that the guy was radicalized by his foreign born wife that he met/married on a dating site from overseas. She was pretty much allowed in with "No" vetting thanks to the Fiancee K-1 Visa, which also needs to change. In fact, if I was a politician I'd stop that except for extreme circumstances all together. Most guys I know who marry overseas are weirdos who are either looking to exploit poor women from overseas so that they can become their domestic maid/slave or absolute weirdos who can't get laid in this country. Exploitation is almost always the case, and this case just shows that it can go both ways. Normal muslim American making in the top 30% of all Income earners in this country pretty much turns radical over this girl. She isn't vetted because he's a citizen, and this is allowed to happen.

by Unique Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:03 pm

we should start looking at the things that trigger this kind of behaviour instead of blaming the wepons they use to commit these crimes. the world acts like banning guns would stop people wanting to kill other people.

by rwo power Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:06 pm

Unique wrote:the world acts like banning guns would stop people wanting to kill other people.

Well, banning guns would likely make it more difficult to kill as many people as are currently killed by guns in the US.

If you look at this mass shooting counter where you have an average of more than 1 mass shooting per day in 2015, you'd probably have difficulties to find something like that in countries where guns are more difficult to get.

by Guest Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:08 pm

Unique wrote:we should start looking at the things that trigger this kind of behaviour instead of blaming the wepons they use to commit these crimes. the world acts like banning guns would stop people wanting to kill other people.

It isn't about wanting to kill people though.We all want to kill people sometimes, but its about being able to.

The vast majority of this country eats meat but we would NEVER show an animal being slaughtered with a knife on tv you know why? Because other weapons take more effort than simp lying pulling a trigger, and the vast majority don't have the stomach to fathom that. Could syed and his little wife had took out an entire room with just a knife? Of course not because the effort it takes would have made it impossible to do. We can't stop murder, but we can make it harder.

by Unique Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:55 pm

but my point is we look to find the easy thing to blame. its like this. if a man picks up a gun and starts shooting people screaming god is gear. or jesus is great people will blame the the guns. if a man gets high on LSD and goes out and shoots people then the world would blame the drugs. so if people just shoot people we say ban the guns. people comit a crime high on a drug and we ban the drug. thousends of people die each year in the name of one religion or other and we never talk about religion control. why is that?? simple. its easy to say ban the guns. its easy to ban a substance.

by rwo power Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:07 pm

Well, but if a person (who screams whatever and/or is high) has a gun (or even an automatic one as they are easy to get in the US, too), he can do far more damage than if s/he has just a knife.

So if you make it difficult for people to get a gun, then madmen of whatever coleur can do far less damage.

by Unique Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:03 pm

but is it not like blaming the car if somone crashes when drinking and driving. you could say if they didn't have a car there would never have been a crash. my point is if your gonna try to put tough control on the tools people use to murder maybe we should try to control the things that make people murder in the first place.

by rwo power Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:08 pm

Well, a car is useful, though. What use is a gun other than for killing? So the car analogy is a bit weak IMO. There is no real loss for the people if there are no guns. There would be a loss if there would be no cars, though.

by DuringTheWar Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:29 pm

Banning cars would lead to less deaths and less terrori.. Sorry I mean global warming.

by Myesyats Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:45 pm

Unique wrote:we should start looking at the things that trigger this kind of behaviour instead of blaming the wepons they use to commit these crimes. the world acts like banning guns would stop people wanting to kill other people.

How do you talk sense to a maniac though? American mentality is what it is. Even if it was harder to get your hands on a gun, they'd still do it if they wanted to.

Does these incidencts happen in Germany or Switzerland too?

by rwo power Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:45 pm

DuringTheWar wrote:Banning cars would lead to less deaths and less terrori.. Sorry I mean global warming.

This still doesn't take into account that cars are inherently useful as they make it possible for people to move from A to B, while guns are *only* good for killing.

linetty wrote:Does these incidencts happen in Germany or Switzerland too?

There have been mass shootings ion Germany, too, but far less frequently. While there is about one every day in the US, in Germany it is a very rare event. I think one or two in a year or so. If there are murders with guns, they are more likely targeted murders of one person (out of jealousy or stuff like that) and not random shootings.

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