Re: USA gun violence thread

[McLewis]

For better or worse, guns are part of the fabric of American culture. It's just not possible to completely unravel us from it. People here will always be able to own them. And I say that as someone who strongly supports gun laws that represent this century and not the 18th. Literally every amendment has undergone changes to reflect the realities of right now. The 2nd has undergone the fewest and that's no mistake or oversight.

The gun lobby is powerful and their supporters are legion. Even a whiff of talk of anything that they perceive as a curtailment of their 2nd amendment rights and the fear-mongering commences. It's a very well-oiled machines and it's super effective. Just look at how the playbook the NRA trots out after atrocities like Columbine, Sandy Hook, Parkland, Charleston, etc. They tell us not to take their guns away because 1 guy decided to lose his mind and kill a bunch of people. That they would never do that. The reality is that everyone's a law abiding citizen.....until they're not. It's a razor thin line and it's very easy to cross. They tell us the government has no right to decide who is mentally fit to own a gun and that even the definition of "mentally ill" isn't definitive enough to apply to owning guns.  They use semantics like that to confuse, gaslight, stall and deceive util we're all too mentally exhausted to talk about the subject again.

They are so frightened by this that the NRA actively shuts down even research on how to decrease gun violence for fear of what that research would possibly reveal: Stronger gun laws may actually work.

[sportsczy]

I think there's an indirect way to deal with this McLewis... The news should not talk about name the perpetrators of these shootings. Don't make them famous. Make it known that you will get no publicity from killing people.

Most of these crazy douche bags think that it's a way to become immortal while committing suicide. Take that away and I think the appeal of it goes away.

[VivaStPauli]

I actually think that's a great fucking idea, sports. Seriously. Would make it a lot less appealing to a lot of sociopaths out there.


But I also think "guns are part of the fabric of American culture" isn't a meaningful statement. Longswords were once an important part of the fabric of German culture, and I honestly don't mind military grade swords got banned in the 30s, even for academics (yes, university students were allowed to carry swords and sabers, the olden times were amazingly bonkers).
Australia had much of the same love affair with guns, and they banned them in the 90s and haven't looked back a bit. They also haven't been all eaten by dingos, and their government doesn't seem more corrupt than the American one.

[Art Morte]

Apparently that video shows Ahmaud Arbery some moments before his death. Walks into a house under construction at 13:30 and starts running away when he's caught. Doesn't look like he was on an innocent jog in the neighbourhood.

[BarrileteCosmico]

Honestly even if he were the burglar it wouldn't change anything. No one should come up to you pointing guns, they should just call the cops and let them handle it.

[Myesyats]

So it looks like they could make a good case for a "citizen's arrest" situation

The "white racists hunt down innocent black jogger" narrative was short lived

but still i dont see why any guns needed to be involved

[Art Morte]

So it looks like they could make a good case for a "citizen's arrest" situation

The "white racists hunt down innocent black jogger" narrative was short lived

but still i dont see why any guns needed to be involved

The citizen's arrest thing makes more sense if the guy on the video really is Arbery. Meaning that it wasn't just a random black guy on a jog, but a guy who had moments before been chased out of a property in the neighbourhood.

I think what went wrong here is that the two idiots rolled up too close to Arbery, instead of telling him from a distance that they were arresting him. They expected him to comply, but instead started struggling with the shotgun guy, being close enough to charge him. Shotgun guy then shot him - which at that point I actually understand. If I was holding a gun and someone was trying to take it from me, I'd shoot them, too, no matter what the situation and intentions had been.

I'm not saying that the idiots were right in their actions, but I can see how it played out and sort of makes sense now.

[elitedam]

This information was already public. It changes nothing about the fact that two white dudes got their guns, got in their pickup and chased and killed an unarmed black guy because they thought he was a burglar.

Nothing about this makes sense.

[sportsczy]

It does.  Someone who trespasses can get shot.  And yes, I have a gun and for good reason.  Over 80% of burglaries where the owner is unfortunately still on-premises end up in violence made to the owner.

You sneak into my house uninvited, you may get shot.  End of.  

Consequences are also extreme in Singapore, China, Dubai, etc.

Chasing the person down and shooting him down is another thing altogether, however.  That's completely ridiculous.

[El Gunner]

You sneak into my house uninvited, you may get shot. End of.

wtf

Over 80% of burglaries where the owner is unfortunately still on-premises end up in violence made to the owner.

i call bullshit

[Freeza]

You sneak into my house uninvited, you may get shot. End of.

wtf

Over 80% of burglaries where the owner is unfortunately still on-premises end up in violence made to the owner.

i call bullshit

*A household member was present in roughly 1 million burglaries
and became victims of violent crimes in 266,560 burglaries.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt

A quick google search. Report from 2010.

[sportsczy]

Depends where and against whom.  Varies significantly based on location.  I'm also thinking Grand Larceny more than burglary... where there's at least $3k of property stolen.  As the stats here show, 65% of the burglary attackers knew the victim...  not a stranger entering your home.  Seems like old boyfriend/girlfriend/roommate doing it type stuff.

Great data...  but doesn't paint the picture I'm looking for.  

I know a handful of times when people have caught burglars stealing stuff.  The violence probably occurred because the people I knew tried to stop the burglary and they got hurt (in once case, badly).  One, the burglars just ran away. The others, the victim got hit.  One friend of mine was hit with a hammer in the head.

In NYC, there was a series of burglaries where the person would follow single women home in 2019, assault them as they entered their apartment... rape them and steal their stuff.  

Considering everything is captured in these stats, 27% is actually really high.

[Thimmy]

If someone breaks into my house for whatever reason, I have a hockey stick, a baseball bat, and an effective alarm system that will ensure quick police response. I appreciate how unlikely it is that I'll ever see a gun in this country - be it in my hands, or in the hands of someone else. If I need my neighbor's assistance in chasing someone away, he'll probably bring his tennis racket and we can have a rebellious, full contact, sports clash during these Corona times

[Myesyats]

This information was already public. It changes nothing about the fact that two white dudes got their guns, got in their pickup and chased and killed an unarmed black guy because they thought he was a burglar.

Nothing about this makes sense.

Why do you have to make it a race thing. People were so quick to jump onto the white racists, innocent black jogger narrative so quick, including myself admittedly

I think it's quite unclear now and the victim did already have a criminal record tbh

[elitedam]

How is it unclear?

If you see someone who you think is a burglar, call the damn police. You can't get your guns, chase them down, and then claim self-defense.

[Art Morte]

How is it unclear?

If you see someone who you think is a burglar, call the damn police. You can't get your guns, chase them down, and then claim self-defense.

That's right. Police are trained for a reason, you don't get up close to someone, armed, and try to make a citizen's arrest, while you're still in a car nonetheless. But I don't believe these idiots meant to kill the guy, that was a consequence of their amateurish arrest attempt that allowed the guy to start wrestling with the shotgun guy who then shot, in my opinion, in self defense. The court has to basically decide whether the redneck's self defense was justified or whether he should have avoided the situation completely, was not within his rights and goes to prison.

[Myesyats]

Well... Nevermind that guns shouldnt be allowed, but they are in Georgia, and they had the right to be armed and open carry. So, acdtually, they had the right to just stand there in the middle of the street with a shotgun.

[M99]

Whats the debate here exactly? The perpetrators are innocent? Or that the crime isn't rooted in racism.

I ask myself this, if the person was white would he have been shot that day?

And the answer I come to is hell no.

[The Demon of Carthage]

Okay, let's suppose that this case has nothing to do with racism. Let's suppose that those two rednecks had absolutely no bias against the young man and were simply in accordance with Georgia's citizen's arrest law.

The law itself requires that the offender must have committed a crime in the presence of another person, or that person must have "immediate knowledge" of a crime that has taken place by the perpetrator.

Do you guys know what they said to the police? They said they chased him because he matched the description of someone caught on a security camera committing recent break-ins in the neighborhood. Which means they weren't even sure it was him. Which means they weren't in accordance of Georgia's citizen's arrest law. That's number one.

Number 2: let's for the sake of the argument suppose that even though they weren't 100% sure it was him, they felt that the probability of him being the burglar was high. You simply don't chase him in your pick up truck with shotguns and pistols and tell him that "you just wanna talk". That's the perfect scenario for a tragedy to happen, any anybody with an IQ above 80 already knows this. Which means they were simply asking for trouble.

The cleanest way would've been to call the police, tell them where he is and let them deal with it. Those two could've easily prevented his death if they had just turned on a few brain cells before acting like fucking cavemen.

Racism or not, they should be charged with manslaughter.

PS: I'm not making any excuse for the victim, he had no right being on private property. But the right way in dealing with him wasn't to chase him and shoot him in the street.

His death could've easily been avoided. Easily.

[Art Morte]

Whats the debate here exactly? The perpetrators are innocent? Or that the crime isn't rooted in racism.

For me the debate is whether it was a premeditated murder or something less severe.

The citizens-turned-police were absolutely wrong to try an armed arrest. But they also didn't just shoot Arbery the moment they caught up with him. He was shot during a struggle. Which is the key part. So, the debate is, does the fact that Arbery and the redneck were engaged in a scuffle shift blame away from the killer?

[CBarca]

It doesn't matter if they didn't mean to. The moment they literally chased him down with guns, they take away any excuse of "I didn't MEAN to kill him".

Yeah you did if you chase someone with a gun.

[BarrileteCosmico]

Whats the debate here exactly? The perpetrators are innocent? Or that the crime isn't rooted in racism.

For me the debate is whether it was a premeditated murder or something less severe.

The citizens-turned-police were absolutely wrong to try an armed arrest. But they also didn't just shoot Arbery the moment they caught up with him. He was shot during a struggle. Which is the key part. So, the debate is, does the fact that Arbery and the redneck were engaged in a scuffle shift blame away from the killer?

Intent doesn't matter when they shot him down and it was clearly not self defense. It's still homicide, whether of the 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree won't make much of a difference.

[sportsczy]

Yeah... when you chase someone down with weapons as he's running away, and shoot him down (in the back no less), its 100% murder. Now it comes down to degrees.

Sentences range from 25 years to life. Not sure there's a death sentence in Georgia.

Those shooters are fucked and rightly so.

[sportsczy]

Whats the debate here exactly? The perpetrators are innocent? Or that the crime isn't rooted in racism.

For me the debate is whether it was a premeditated murder or something less severe.

The citizens-turned-police were absolutely wrong to try an armed arrest. But they also didn't just shoot Arbery the moment they caught up with him. He was shot during a struggle. Which is the key part. So, the debate is, does the fact that Arbery and the redneck were engaged in a scuffle shift blame away from the killer?

The key part isn't that.  It's who initiated the struggle, whether the person you shot was armed, etc.  He had no weapons.  

There is no law that protects vigilante behavior in the US.  You confronted and shot down an unarmed man.  And btw, if you've never trespassed before and don't have a record, you get a warning first.  Especially in this case where it was an uninhabited construction site and dude didn't take anything lol.

The best case was self defense for such craziness... but these guys obviously can't say that.

[McLewis]

On the "trespassing" train of thought. A strike against this logic is that no one called the police about someone trespassing on that property. So even if that was Arbery in the video (I'm not sure it is), he didn't break any laws by simply stopping and looking around a property currently under construction. For it to be trespassing, Georgia law says he had to have knowingly entered the property despite clear warnings from the property owner not to do so, he had to have done damage to the property or had entered it for some unlawful reason. None of this occurred in that video. Given his skin color and where he lives, I wouldn't have done it if I was him, but that's me.

So trespassing doesn't work here.

[rincon]

Having only read this now, getting in a car with a gun, chasing someone, and then killing the person seems pretty clearly murder. Regardless of the details of how the gun was shot, this is just vigilantes creating a situation out of nothing that ended with someone dead.

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